Author Topic: Trump to take steps to ban bump stocks  (Read 13661 times)

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Offline LauraTXNM

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Re: Trump to take steps to ban bump stocks
« Reply #150 on: February 21, 2018, 08:08:42 pm »
LOL.  Firearm insurance.  This will create a whole new industry for the government; providing subsidies for democrat voters who can't afford the insurance.

In Florida auto insurance is not required if you escrow $100,000.  Curious if the insurance proponents would find that just as acceptable.

That's an interesting way to handle auto insurance.  I wonder if other states have that option.  I sincerely doubt CA does.
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Offline driftdiver

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Re: Trump to take steps to ban bump stocks
« Reply #151 on: February 21, 2018, 08:10:06 pm »
Sorry if I derailed your all's discussion.  I wasn't asking about insurance because of the FL shooter.  I was really just curious if it ever comes up.

@LauraTXNM

Insurance is a trigger word in firearm circles.  Its been a tactic gun control fanatics have tried for years to increase the cost of firearm ownership.

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Offline LauraTXNM

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Re: Trump to take steps to ban bump stocks
« Reply #152 on: February 21, 2018, 08:12:22 pm »
@LauraTXNM

Insurance is a trigger word in firearm circles.  Its been a tactic gun control fanatics have tried for years to increase the cost of firearm ownership.



Thanks for explaining.  I was beginning to get that idea ;).  I guess I’ll just walk away now.
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Offline LauraTXNM

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Re: BREAKING: TRUMP DIRECTS SESSIONS TO BAN BUMP STOCKS
« Reply #153 on: February 21, 2018, 08:16:13 pm »
@LauraTXNM
How do you handle it if you injure someone with any tool?   Either they pay for it themselves, ask you to pay or they can seek remedy through the civil courts.

As far as I know my health insurance will pay if I am accidentally shot, knifed, clubbed, beaten with a squirrel or fall and break my leg.

Last response, I promise.  When a kid hit my sister with his car, his insurance paid for her physical therapy.  Homeowner’s insurance can cover household accidents with tools. 

Anyway, have a nice afternoon!
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Disclaimer: I am a liberal, progressive, feminist, here because I like talking to you all.  We're all this together.

Offline Elderberry

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Re: Trump to take steps to ban bump stocks
« Reply #154 on: February 21, 2018, 08:16:46 pm »
That's an interesting way to handle auto insurance.  I wonder if other states have that option.  I sincerely doubt CA does.

In Texas, you are required to show Proof of Financial Responsibility. Most people carry auto insurance to cover that.

Offline thackney

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Re: BREAKING: TRUMP DIRECTS SESSIONS TO BAN BUMP STOCKS
« Reply #155 on: February 21, 2018, 08:29:48 pm »
@LauraTXNM
How do you handle it if you injure someone with any tool?   Either they pay for it themselves, ask you to pay or they can seek remedy through the civil courts.

As far as I know my health insurance will pay if I am accidentally shot, knifed, clubbed, beaten with a squirrel or fall and break my leg.

...beaten with a squirrel?

That weapon is likely to damage the attacker as much as the attackee.
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Offline thackney

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Re: Trump to take steps to ban bump stocks
« Reply #156 on: February 21, 2018, 08:32:31 pm »
That's an interesting way to handle auto insurance.  I wonder if other states have that option.  I sincerely doubt CA does.

Nearly all, if not all, states have this option.

http://jurisco.com/california-auto-insurance-bond/

In fact,  all drivers in California could choose to post a surety bond in lieu of carrying insurance.  In California it falls under the umbrella of Financial Responsibility.  This means that all drivers are required to have proof that they can cover damages up to $35,000.  Under California Vehicle Code, Section 38750  drivers can choose between three options to meet this requirement:  Carry traditional insurance, post cash with the state or to procure a auto insurance bond with a  licensed bond agency. 

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Offline DB

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Re: Trump to take steps to ban bump stocks
« Reply #157 on: February 21, 2018, 09:03:18 pm »
That's an interesting way to handle auto insurance.  I wonder if other states have that option.  I sincerely doubt CA does.

I believe CA allows someone to post bond that they can self insure.

Offline DB

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Re: Trump to take steps to ban bump stocks
« Reply #158 on: February 21, 2018, 09:04:18 pm »
Nearly all, if not all, states have this option.

http://jurisco.com/california-auto-insurance-bond/

In fact,  all drivers in California could choose to post a surety bond in lieu of carrying insurance.  In California it falls under the umbrella of Financial Responsibility.  This means that all drivers are required to have proof that they can cover damages up to $35,000.  Under California Vehicle Code, Section 38750  drivers can choose between three options to meet this requirement:  Carry traditional insurance, post cash with the state or to procure a auto insurance bond with a  licensed bond agency.

I should have read further down thread before responding... But thank you for confirming it.

Online Smokin Joe

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Re: BREAKING: TRUMP DIRECTS SESSIONS TO BAN BUMP STOCKS
« Reply #159 on: February 22, 2018, 10:32:31 am »
Absolutely untrue.  The RKBA derives from the natural right of individual self-defense.   This nonsense about overthrowing the government and killing federal agents may give INVAR wood, but it's not the purpose of the Second Amendment.   The 2A is concerned with ensuring the men and material necessary to defend the nascent United States, not to overthrow it. 

No one is advocating regulations that would infringe upon the natural right.   Registration (if not insurance) is, IMO,  specifically contemplated under the plain language of the 2A.   
A well regulated (controlled) militia (army) being necessary to the security of a free state (you have to have one to defend it from outsiders, but it has to be controlled to keep it from taking over) the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. The people, armed, are the ultimate check on government power, as projected by the standing federal army. If you had read and comprehended the Federalist Papers, you would know this. It is that simple. All this symantic contortionism to try to shoehorn a right of the people into some sort of reserved for the Militia only right is just nonsense.

Recalling that the just powers of Governments instituted among men for the purpose of securing their rights are derived from the consent of the governed, when those governments no longer pursue that aim but instead seek to destroy those rights, it is the duty of men to alter or abolish them, and keeping that ability is what is sacrosanct. It isn't for the purpose of overthrowing a legitimate government, as defined in those terms, but for the purpose of keeping that government legitimate.

Registration is a precursor and a valuable tool for confiscation, and is an imminent threat to the Right. You keep babbling about "registration and insurance" as if that will make it any more reasonable: it will not. Firearms account for some of the mruders in the US annually, but a variety of objects from miscellaneous blunt instruments including everything from tire irons to rocks and common hand tools to edged devices, to ligatures of various sorts, to fists and feet are used to take the lives of other people. Are you going to have women register their pantyhose because they have been used to murder people too? Every length of rope, plank, or bar of metal? Every kitchen knife? Get real, quit pissing around with feelgood nonsense, and focus on the cultural problems which have made these crimes more common.

Reinstate the death penalty for Murder, maybe there won't be so much of it, and a lot fewer repeat offenders.

Put God back in the schools, mainly because the idea that you might be held responsible for your actions by a higher power acts as a deterrent, even among those who profess not to believe. People have been as free to ignore Him as they do their Algebra lessons, only it isn't on their report card.

Tone down the rampant slaughter in media that desensitizes people to the idea of taking a life, and the attitude of polarization so common in our culture today which is all or nothing to the extent of letting something go or killing someone over it with no in between--and before you even attribute that attitude to supporters of the RKBA here, kindly keep in mind that we have already put up with a tremendous number of infringements codified in some 20,000 laws molesting the Right to Keep and Bear Arms, we have just hit our limit. Not so much "none" as "no more".

And last, but far from least, restore the sanctity of that most fundamental Right, the Right to Life. When the most innocent and helpless among us are slaughtered without compunction in numbers which outstrip the most diabolical of regimes in history, for the 'crime' of being inconvenient, then the door is opened to the slaughter of anyone for which any reason can be contrived, no matter how thin that justification.

How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
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Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

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Online Smokin Joe

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Re: BREAKING: TRUMP DIRECTS SESSIONS TO BAN BUMP STOCKS
« Reply #160 on: February 22, 2018, 10:44:48 am »
You don't think automobile insurance is necessary?
The guy who hit my work vehicle didn't think so, nor a license plate, registration, title to the vehicle, etc. That leaves me eating the expense of repairs. Despite the law, people are driving all over without it.

People who have things carry insurance so they don't lose those things if they can be sued. People who don't have much, don't generally care.Besides, what makes anyone think that these devices, weapons, etc. won't be available to criminals? If you can get a few keys of Coke or Meth in the country, you can get guns in, too (real full auto capable firearms available on the global market for a pittance) and insurance laws aren't even going to be on your radar. This stuff only affects those who already abide by the law, not the budding criminal.

Besides, what insurance company would pay off how much for 17 lives lost? It won't bring anyone back, so it turns into placing a value on human life, which means at some point one innocent person's life would be worth more than another, and do you really want to go there?
« Last Edit: February 22, 2018, 10:50:45 am by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Online Smokin Joe

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Re: BREAKING: TRUMP DIRECTS SESSIONS TO BAN BUMP STOCKS
« Reply #161 on: February 22, 2018, 10:50:18 am »
To drive them on public roads.

Are you required to have liability insurance to own a pool?  No one is saying you shouldn't be able to buy it.

But it is completely different to say you have to have insurance own or carry.  How do you imagine that would be enforced?

My kids do rodeo.  Big, dangerous animals; participants and bystanders can and do get hurt.  Mountain climbing, trail riding, the list is endless.

And do you believe their won't be exemption clauses for intentional harm?  It would not even apply to events we are concerned about.
"...acts of war, declared or undeclared..." I have little doubt "Civil Unrest" could be stuffed into that category, and no insurance covers a person insure who is engaged in a criminal act (read the fine print in your auto policy).
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: BREAKING: TRUMP DIRECTS SESSIONS TO BAN BUMP STOCKS
« Reply #162 on: February 22, 2018, 01:49:41 pm »
A well regulated (controlled) militia (army) being necessary to the security of a free state (you have to have one to defend it from outsiders, but it has to be controlled to keep it from taking over) the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. The people, armed, are the ultimate check on government power, as projected by the standing federal army. If you had read and comprehended the Federalist Papers, you would know this. It is that simple. All this symantic contortionism to try to shoehorn a right of the people into some sort of reserved for the Militia only right is just nonsense.

Recalling that the just powers of Governments instituted among men for the purpose of securing their rights are derived from the consent of the governed, when those governments no longer pursue that aim but instead seek to destroy those rights, it is the duty of men to alter or abolish them, and keeping that ability is what is sacrosanct. It isn't for the purpose of overthrowing a legitimate government, as defined in those terms, but for the purpose of keeping that government legitimate.

Registration is a precursor and a valuable tool for confiscation, and is an imminent threat to the Right. You keep babbling about "registration and insurance" as if that will make it any more reasonable: it will not. Firearms account for some of the mruders in the US annually, but a variety of objects from miscellaneous blunt instruments including everything from tire irons to rocks and common hand tools to edged devices, to ligatures of various sorts, to fists and feet are used to take the lives of other people. Are you going to have women register their pantyhose because they have been used to murder people too? Every length of rope, plank, or bar of metal? Every kitchen knife? Get real, quit pissing around with feelgood nonsense, and focus on the cultural problems which have made these crimes more common.


Justices Thomas  and Sotomoyor recently (in Digital Realty Trust v. Somers) wrote dueling concurrences on how to interpret a statute.   Sotomoyor, like you do,  thinks a statute's plain meaning (or, as here, the words to the Constitution) can be ignored and its "purpose" discerned by reference to Senate and Committee reports (or, as you contend, by the Federalist papers).   Justice Thomas, on the other hand, argued that the Court is "governed by what Congress enacted rather than by what it intended".
 

Justice Thomas reveals why your insistence that the Second Amendment's purpose be gleaned from the Federalist  papers is nonsense.   The Constitution, like a statute,  means what it says.  The RKBA, as enunciated in the 2A , cannot be divorced from the predicate clause, and its plain meaning is that the right is a collective right,  for the purpose of securing the men and materials needed to comprise the contemplated citizen militia needed to secure the "free state".   It is by no means a license for revolution, as you contend, certainly not in the context of a Constitutional Republic.   

The INDIVIDUAL right to keep and bear arms derives from the natural right of individual self defense of home and property.   That right wasn't confirmed for the first two centuries of the Republic, until Justice Scalia's decision in Heller.  A brilliant and necessary decision, but entirely inconsistent with the 2A's predicate clause.   

It is my view that the individual right does NOT derive from the 2A,  but from the same "penumbras and emanations" that led earlier Courts to find individual, natural rights of privacy and self-determination, and ultimately, the right to abortion.

Both the abortion right and the individual right to keep and bear arms for self-defense are equally susceptible to regulation.   The rights cannot be denied, but they can be made subject to the community's reasonable rules.   In short,  if you contend the community can ban abortion after 20 weeks,  then the community can equally require that your guns be registered and insured.     
« Last Edit: February 22, 2018, 01:52:35 pm by Jazzhead »
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Offline txradioguy

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Re: BREAKING: TRUMP DIRECTS SESSIONS TO BAN BUMP STOCKS
« Reply #163 on: February 22, 2018, 01:51:13 pm »
Justices Thomas  and Sotomoyor recently (in Digital Realty Trust v. Somers) wrote dueling concurrences on how to interpret a statute.   Sotomoyor, like you do,  thinks a statute's plain meaning (or, as here, the words to the Constitution) can be ignored and its "purpose" discerned by reference to Senate and Committee reports (or, as you contend, by the Federalist papers).   Justice Thomas, on the other hand, argued that the Court is "governed by what Congress enacted rather than by what it intended".
 

Justice Thomas reveals why your insistence that the Second Amendment's purpose be gleaned from the Federalist  papers is nonsense.   The Constitution, like a statute,  means what it says.  The RKBA, as enunciated in the 2A cannot be divorced from the predicate clause, and its plain meaning is that the right is a collective right,  for the purpose of securing the men and materials needed to comprise the militia needed to secure the "free state".   It is by no means a license for revolution, as you contend, certainly not in the context of a Constitutional Republic.   

The INDIVIDUAL right to keep and bear arms derives from the natural right of individual self defense.   That right wasn't confirmed for the first two centuries of the Republic, until Justice Scalia's decision in Heller.  A brilliant and necessary decision, but entirely inconsistent with the 2A's predicate clause.   

It is my view that the individual right does NOT derive from the 2A,  but from the same "penumbras and emanations" that led earlier Courts to find individual, natural rights of privacy and self-determination, and ultimately, the right to abortion.

Both the abortion right and the individual right to keep arms for self-defense are equally susceptible to regulation.   The rights cannot be denied, but they can be made subject to the community's reasonable rules.   In short,  if you contend the community can ban abortion after 20 weeks,  then the community can equally require that your guns be registered and insured.   

Amazing how you never post links to this stuff you've supposedly read.   :whistle:
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Re: Trump to take steps to ban bump stocks
« Reply #164 on: February 22, 2018, 01:52:19 pm »
Amazing how you never post links to this stuff you've supposedly read.   :whistle:

It would, obviously, help the handicapped, but isn’t necessary to the gist of the argument.

Offline txradioguy

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Re: BREAKING: TRUMP DIRECTS SESSIONS TO BAN BUMP STOCKS
« Reply #165 on: February 22, 2018, 01:53:47 pm »
Besides, what insurance company would pay off how much for 17 lives lost? It won't bring anyone back, so it turns into placing a value on human life, which means at some point one innocent person's life would be worth more than another, and do you really want to go there?

And that's why Hillary and other gun grabbers have been pushing to give survivors and the family members of those killed the right/ability to sue gun manufacturers.  They want to soak them for large emotionally driven civil court penalties in wrongful death lawsuits and run them out of business that way.

The attack on the Second Amendment is a multi pronged attack.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: BREAKING: TRUMP DIRECTS SESSIONS TO BAN BUMP STOCKS
« Reply #166 on: February 22, 2018, 01:55:47 pm »
Amazing how you never post links to this stuff you've supposedly read.   :whistle:

I don't read everything I read on the internet, you know.   I was quoting from a WSJ editorial from this morning, entitled "Thomas v. Sotomayor", regarding statutory interpretation that I read on the train coming to work this morning.  You know, newsprint.   

Go ahead and look for the editorial on WSJ's website; it will be behind a paywall.   
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Offline txradioguy

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Re: Trump to take steps to ban bump stocks
« Reply #167 on: February 22, 2018, 01:57:25 pm »
It would, obviously, help the handicapped, but isn’t necessary to the gist of the argument.

No actually it does.  He likes to cherry pick pieces of the Constitution...provide only parts of certain rulings that back up his Liberal world view and present them to us as if it's the entire document.

There are some credibility issues with his wild claims about the courts backing up his gun grabbing view of the world.

So yes he should post a link on stuff like this.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline txradioguy

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Re: BREAKING: TRUMP DIRECTS SESSIONS TO BAN BUMP STOCKS
« Reply #168 on: February 22, 2018, 01:57:52 pm »
I don't read everything I read on the internet, you know.   I was quoting from a WSJ editorial from this morning, entitled "Thomas v. Sotomayor", regarding statutory interpretation that I read on the train coming to work this morning.  You know, newsprint.   

Go ahead and look for the editorial on WSJ's website; it will be behind a paywall.

How convenient.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: BREAKING: TRUMP DIRECTS SESSIONS TO BAN BUMP STOCKS
« Reply #169 on: February 22, 2018, 02:07:39 pm »
How convenient.

Here you go, and you're welcome    Thomas v. Sotomayor  
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Offline driftdiver

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Re: Trump to take steps to ban bump stocks
« Reply #170 on: February 22, 2018, 02:16:07 pm »
No actually it does.  He likes to cherry pick pieces of the Constitution...provide only parts of certain rulings that back up his Liberal world view and present them to us as if it's the entire document.

There are some credibility issues with his wild claims about the courts backing up his gun grabbing view of the world.

So yes he should post a link on stuff like this.

@txradioguy
Thats what lawyers are trained to do.   Its also what makes a 'living Constitution' so dangerous as we've seen.
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Re: Trump to take steps to ban bump stocks
« Reply #171 on: February 22, 2018, 02:20:35 pm »
@txradioguy
Thats what lawyers are trained to do.   Its also what makes a 'living Constitution' so dangerous as we've seen.

Exactly!
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Trump to take steps to ban bump stocks
« Reply #172 on: February 22, 2018, 02:46:23 pm »
@txradioguy
Thats what lawyers are trained to do.   Its also what makes a 'living Constitution' so dangerous as we've seen.

You cannot get to a RKBA for individual self defense without a "living Constitution".  Arguably, the right didn't exist until the Heller decision.   Be careful what you wish for.   
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Oceander

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Re: Trump to take steps to ban bump stocks
« Reply #173 on: February 22, 2018, 03:00:07 pm »
No actually it does.  He likes to cherry pick pieces of the Constitution...provide only parts of certain rulings that back up his Liberal world view and present them to us as if it's the entire document.

There are some credibility issues with his wild claims about the courts backing up his gun grabbing view of the world.

So yes he should post a link on stuff like this.

On this there is no cherry-picking, except by those who think the only right in the Constitution is an absolute right to do whatever the hell you want with weapons.  In other words, it’s the accessories to murder who are cherry-picking. 

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Re: Trump to take steps to ban bump stocks
« Reply #174 on: February 22, 2018, 03:27:37 pm »
On this there is no cherry-picking, except by those who think the only right in the Constitution is an absolute right to do whatever the hell you want with weapons.   

Your gun grabber stance is duly noted. 

No one here or anywhere has said the Constitution "is an absolute right to do whatever the hell you want with weapons." That's you with your panties in a twist being totally hysterical.

Take a Midol. Hell take two.

If what you said were true...then murder with any kind of firearm would be legal.  It's not.  it's called murder and there are rules to punish people who think they can do "anything they want" with a gun.

As is repeatedly noted and constantly ignored by you and Jazzy there are already 20,000 laws on the books in the U.S. concerning the regulation use and implementation of firearms above and beyond what is outlined in the 2nd Amendment.

WTF is one more law going to accomplish?  What is it going to prevent?

Nothing.  Zip zero nada. 

All it will do is allow those of you that throw logic out the window and operate strictly on irrational emotions and "feelings" to feel good that you did "something" even when it accomplishes nothing.

Quote
In other words, it’s the accessories to murder who are cherry-picking.

Oh so now anyone ho supports the NRA...GOA...USCCA and believes in the 2nd Amendment is an accessory to murder?

Typical gun grabber nonsense that leads anyone who reads that steaming pile of BS to believe that you got lost on your way to DU.

Because that's the kind of knee jerk crap the Bloomberg sponsored Everytown for Gun Safety...Nancy Pelosi...and Bernie Sanders would throw out.

Nothing factual nothing with even a kernel of truth...just hysterical crap.

You should be ashamed to say something like that.  But we all know you're not.


The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!