Are boys 'broken'? Another mass shooting renews debate on toxic masculinity

[mystery-ak]

Are boys 'broken'? Another mass shooting renews debate on toxic masculinity
Alia E. Dastagir, USA TODAY Published 12:52 p.m. ET Feb. 19, 2018 | Updated 1:18 p.m. ET Feb. 19, 2018

After 19-year-old Nikolas Cruz was accused of gunning down 17 people at a Florida high school last week, comedian Michael Ian Black started a thread on Twitter that sparked a vitriolic debate about the role of gender in gun violence. It began with the tweet, "Deeper even than the gun problem is this: boys are broken."

Black's tweet has been liked nearly 65,000 times. In an interview with NPR on Sunday, he elaborated.

"I think it means that there is something going on with American men that is giving them the permission and space to commit violence," he said. "And one of the main things we focus on correctly is guns and mental health, but I think deeper than that is a problem, a crisis in masculinity."

Many people on Twitter praised Black for his take.

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https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2018/02/19/boys-broken-another-mass-shooting-renews-debate-toxic-masculinity/351125002/

[Free Vulcan]

'Toxic masculinity' - an invented liberal feminist term to slur any man that doesn't yield to their belief that they should dominate and control all of society.

[bolobaby]

Actually, the OPPOSITE is true.

When I was a kid, if you had differences with another student, you'd slug it out, someone would get a bloody nose or lip, and everyone would move on. That was that. In fact, after each fist fight I was engaged in, my opponent and I either gained respect for each other or outright friendship.

Nowadays, zero-tolerance policies have made it so the rage gets pent up. Boys don't know or understand the value of a fist fight, so - when it comes time to hurt someone - they are ALL IN and ready to shoot. We've pussified boys so that they are afraid to fight, and unable to get their frustrations out through fighting.

Bottom line, there is wisdom in letting us punch one another every now and then.

[goatprairie]

Liberals would like all boys to be beta, metrosexual males subservient to female masters who would effectively emasculate them.  Most arch feminists would certainly like to do so.
The problem is too many young males are delaying becoming men and taking control of their lives. The fact is most women don't want weak, spineless males no matter how loud the leading feminist harridans shriek about "toxic masculinity."
Beta males eventually find out that alpha males still get favored by most females. We have subsconscious things at work here that don't  obey modern, liberal-invented rules of how males and females are supposed to act and react.

[dfwgator]

The guy was just "bad seed" period...nothing more, nothing less.........people who try to attach more to it than that are missing the boat.

[bolobaby]

The guy was just "bad seed" period...nothing more, nothing less.........people who try to attach more to it than that are missing the boat.

I can disagree with that statement on some pretty simple grounds: a culture will dictate how certain bad seeds will act.

Evidence: Our culture doesn't have its bad seeds strapping explosives to their chests screaming Ballyhoo Snackbar in a marketplace and blowing themselves up. The culture of the 50s was more about bad seeds roughing people up a bit and moving on.

There is a cultural component to this, believe me, and it is steeped in what liberals are doing to society - diminishing the value of life, removing God, refusing to talk about the eternal consequences of your actions, and preaching moral relativism over the existence of absolute good and evil.

[Smokin Joe]

Actually, the OPPOSITE is true.

When I was a kid, if you had differences with another student, you'd slug it out, someone would get a bloody nose or lip, and everyone would move on. That was that. In fact, after each fist fight I was engaged in, my opponent and I either gained respect for each other or outright friendship.

Nowadays, zero-tolerance policies have made it so the rage gets pent up. Boys don't know or understand the value of a fist fight, so - when it comes time to hurt someone - they are ALL IN and ready to shoot. We've pussified boys so that they are afraid to fight, and unable to get their frustrations out through fighting.

Bottom line, there is wisdom in letting us punch one another every now and then.

It is only those "We're all the same" jackwagons who have ignored that most little boys are wired different from most little girls. Boys will naturally sort out dominance through the time honored means of displays and conflict, like the males of any other species. This is perfectly natural, even within the confines of ordinary societal mores even a half century ago, when they knew they'd get the paddle for the fistfight on the playground, even if they were in the right.
It is only since authorities and social scientists (I hate using those two words together) started with the program to get little boys to act like little girls that we have had these incidents, massive "ADD and ADHD" (because the little boys won't sit still), widespread pharmacology which would have been resisted by any means in the "paranoid" Cold War era by parents concerned about "mind control", and blood in the hallways.

It isn't "toxic masculinity" that is the problem, it is the effects of toxic feminism which has demonized masculinity and its normal development that has created this problem and many others.

[skeeter]

It is only since authorities and social scientists (I hate using those two words together) started with the program to get little boys to act like little girls that we have had these incidents, massive "ADD and ADHD" (because the little boys won't sit still), widespread pharmacology which would have been resisted by any means in the "paranoid" Cold War era by parents concerned about "mind control", and blood in the hallways.

It isn't "toxic masculinity" that is the problem, it is the effects of toxic feminism which has demonized masculinity and its normal development that has created this problem and many others.

You've described a certain member of my extended family to a T. She was a primary school teacher in the 60s and disciple of Dr Spock, and went all in on every trendy child rearing scam that came down the pike. Neutered her husband early on (he allowed it). His kids never saw him as an authority figure, more of a peer.

Years ago I asked her why she allowed her son to pin up the most rancid porn all over his bedroom, she replied 'better at home than on the street'. Whatever that meant. And she was sold on the utility of antidepressants.

As a consequence of his upbringing he has spent a good chunk of the last twenty years in the federal pen.

Just an anecdote but totally supportive of your point.

[Sanguine]

I can disagree with that statement on some pretty simple grounds: a culture will dictate how certain bad seeds will act.

Evidence: Our culture doesn't have its bad seeds strapping explosives to their chests screaming Ballyhoo Snackbar in a marketplace and blowing themselves up. The culture of the 50s was more about bad seeds roughing people up a bit and moving on.

There is a cultural component to this, believe me, and it is steeped in what liberals are doing to society - diminishing the value of life, removing God, refusing to talk about the eternal consequences of your actions, and preaching moral relativism over the existence of absolute good and evil.

Good post, BB!  Yes, our culture is broken.  And, it's easier to blame boys, much like many blame guns, than to look at the actual problems. 

[musiclady]

I can disagree with that statement on some pretty simple grounds: a culture will dictate how certain bad seeds will act.

Evidence: Our culture doesn't have its bad seeds strapping explosives to their chests screaming Ballyhoo Snackbar in a marketplace and blowing themselves up. The culture of the 50s was more about bad seeds roughing people up a bit and moving on.

There is a cultural component to this, believe me, and it is steeped in what liberals are doing to society - diminishing the value of life, removing God, refusing to talk about the eternal consequences of your actions, and preaching moral relativism over the existence of absolute good and evil.

Amen and AMEN!!!!

[truth_seeker]

It is only those "We're all the same" jackwagons who have ignored that most little boys are wired different from most little girls. Boys will naturally sort out dominance through the time honored means of displays and conflict, like the males of any other species. This is perfectly natural, even within the confines of ordinary societal mores even a half century ago, when they knew they'd get the paddle for the fistfight on the playground, even if they were in the right.
It is only since authorities and social scientists (I hate using those two words together) started with the program to get little boys to act like little girls that we have had these incidents, massive "ADD and ADHD" (because the little boys won't sit still), widespread pharmacology which would have been resisted by any means in the "paranoid" Cold War era by parents concerned about "mind control", and blood in the hallways.

It isn't "toxic masculinity" that is the problem, it is the effects of toxic feminism which has demonized masculinity and its normal development that has created this problem and many others.

Father of 50s-60s boy, called to task for fighting.  they knew they'd get the paddle for the fistfight on the playground,

My father was mad for the humiliation of having to deal with the Vice Principal, effectively calling him to task over his sons' propensity to duke it out. Then on the way home, asking me what happened, and if I won. (...for me, the single swat was well worth the status and warning it sent. My brothers and I all wrestled, lower middle weight, and rarely if ever lost fights. Dad was more proud, than mad.)

[Smokin Joe]

I can disagree with that statement on some pretty simple grounds: a culture will dictate how certain bad seeds will act.

Evidence: Our culture doesn't have its bad seeds strapping explosives to their chests screaming Ballyhoo Snackbar in a marketplace and blowing themselves up. The culture of the 50s was more about bad seeds roughing people up a bit and moving on.

There is a cultural component to this, believe me, and it is steeped in what liberals are doing to society - diminishing the value of life, removing God, refusing to talk about the eternal consequences of your actions, and preaching moral relativism over the existence of absolute good and evil.

Culture determines what is an "unthinkable act".

In the past 50 years our culture has morphed to the extent that acts of violence and contempt for human life which would have been considered intolerable in media except as studies of horror are commonly piped into the living rooms and culture of America hourly. There is a lot of material which would have been considered 'X' rated (or worse) and definitely not the fare we raise children on. Even video games have kids routinely performing electronic slaughter (no, I'm not demonizing video games, as long as people are aware that that is just a game).
We played 'Army', too, without such aids, with dirt clod grenades and everything from sticks to toy guns, but maybe that more rough and tumble version emphasized that real humans can get hurt, and that pain isn't pretty--especially wen it is yours. Such things teach compassion as well as provide a venue for sorting out leadership (like pack order in wolves).

But 50 years' ago the list of unthinkable acts was considerably longer, and there were more gradations of solutions to problems between people. Confrontations had a spectrum pf possible outcomes, but few things were seen as cause for taking another life, not like today when somehow 'dissing' the wrong person can get you shot and killed. That all or nothing polarity, live or die, with us or against us mentality has crept in to the point where simple and civil disagreement is off the table for many, even older people because of the mindset developed in pop culture and entertainment which spills over into real life.

Those of us who watched John Wayne had the thought that "He can't learn nothin' if ya kill him.', instead of the Boyz in the Hood mentality of thet MF'er has to die. But one of the first cultural taboos to fall around the time prayer was eliminated from schools (with the idea that there is an ultimate authority we all will answer to in the end) was the sanctity of human life. With Roe v Wade, the door was opened to the greatest slaughter mankind has known, perpetrated not upon a vicious enemy, but upon our own flesh and blood, the most innocent of whom were the target.

What good can come of a culture thus corrupted? The only surprise is that much good prevails and these incidents aren't far more commonplace. .

[goatprairie]

It is only those "We're all the same" jackwagons who have ignored that most little boys are wired different from most little girls. Boys will naturally sort out dominance through the time honored means of displays and conflict, like the males of any other species. This is perfectly natural, even within the confines of ordinary societal mores even a half century ago, when they knew they'd get the paddle for the fistfight on the playground, even if they were in the right.
It is only since authorities and social scientists (I hate using those two words together) started with the program to get little boys to act like little girls that we have had these incidents, massive "ADD and ADHD" (because the little boys won't sit still), widespread pharmacology which would have been resisted by any means in the "paranoid" Cold War era by parents concerned about "mind control", and blood in the hallways.

It isn't "toxic masculinity" that is the problem, it is the effects of toxic feminism which has demonized masculinity and its normal development that has created this problem and many others.

"It isn't "toxic masculinity" that is the problem, it is the effects of toxic feminism which has demonized masculinity and its normal development that has created this problem and many others."

  Radical feminism has been the most pernicious force in American society for the last fifty years.

[WingNot]

If only all boys could be Male figure skaters the world would be all candy and nuts.

[musiclady]

If only all boys could be Male figure skaters the world would be all candy and nuts.

What??  You don't like Johnny??

[dfwgator]

Father of 50s-60s boy, called to task for fighting.  they knew they'd get the paddle for the fistfight on the playground,

My father was mad for the humiliation of having to deal with the Vice Principal, effectively calling him to task over his sons' propensity to duke it out. Then on the way home, asking me what happened, and if I won. (...for me, the single swat was well worth the status and warning it sent. My brothers and I all wrestled, lower middle weight, and rarely if ever lost fights. Dad was more proud, than mad.)

Used to be if two boys were caught fighting, they would give both a pair of boxing gloves and they'd go at it.   And usually what ended up happening afterwards was the two came out with respect for each other, and in many cases, became friends.

[LauraTXNM]

Somehow we ought to be able to come up with a happy medium.  I grew up on the border, surrounded by the culture of boys who were the little kings of their households, who could do no wrong.  Boys certainly weren't allowed to hit their sisters, but their sisters were expected to do their laundry and pretty much "serve" them.  That was obviously one extreme, and it was really unhealthy.  Now I see boys who are made to feel bad for acting "naturally".  But I also still see a lot of "grown-up" boys who think they're God's gift and women should be thrilled to be groped by them.  Another extreme, yes.

I think boys' natural ways of dealing with their aggression, physical and immediate, are much healthier than girls' passive-aggressive backstabbing.  But girls have been _trained_ to behave that way, and it will take time to unlearn those habits of mind and expectations.

For a long time, we've spent so much time labeling kids as behaving like boys or girls, marginally acceptable tomboys or effeminate.  Rather than just letting each kid be who he is. I'm afraid that's a large basis for the trans movement, when people feel like they have to change their bodies because they don't "fit" what they think a man or woman should be.

I think the pendulum is going to have to swing back, and it will take a while.

[bolobaby]

We played 'Army', too, without such aids, with dirt clod grenades and everything from sticks to toy guns, but maybe that more rough and tumble version emphasized that real humans can get hurt, and that pain isn't pretty--especially when it is yours.

@Smokin Joe

We played with toy guns CONSTANTLY when we were kids. And if it wasn't an actual toy gun, it was a gun-shaped stick. The key differentiator is that we fought bad guys. That was always clear in our head: cowboys and indians, playing war, space ranger - whatever - there were good guys and there were bad guys. The GOOD guys stood up for certain ideals. These ideals were largely a reflection of Truth, Justice, and The American Way.

Liberalism has eliminated that. There are no more good guys. Everyone is a racist. Cowboys were genocidal maniacs. The American soldier is a perpetrator of war crimes. Aliens are smarter and more advanced than us - we're morally inferior to them and likely to kill them just because we are so horribly stupid and prejudiced.

When you infect society with this notion that we are all such common rotten racists, greedy jingoistic capitalist pigs, and that any crime our ancestors committed is a direct reflection of who we are now, don't we all just deserve to die?

Enter Nikolas Cruz...

[musiclady]

Somehow we ought to be able to come up with a happy medium.  I grew up on the border, surrounded by the culture of boys who were the little kings of their households, who could do no wrong.  Boys certainly weren't allowed to hit their sisters, but their sisters were expected to do their laundry and pretty much "serve" them.  That was obviously one extreme, and it was really unhealthy.  Now I see boys who are made to feel bad for acting "naturally".  But I also still see a lot of "grown-up" boys who think they're God's gift and women should be thrilled to be groped by them.  Another extreme, yes.

I think boys' natural ways of dealing with their aggression, physical and immediate, are much healthier than girls' passive-aggressive backstabbing.  But girls have been _trained_ to behave that way, and it will take time to unlearn those habits of mind and expectations.

For a long time, we've spent so much time labeling kids as behaving like boys or girls, marginally acceptable tomboys or effeminate.  Rather than just letting each kid be who he is. I'm afraid that's a large basis for the trans movement, when people feel like they have to change their bodies because they don't "fit" what they think a man or woman should be.

I think the pendulum is going to have to swing back, and it will take a while.

A wise post, Laura.   Culture has forced both boys and girls into small boxes so that artistic boys and adventurous girls were completely ostracized.   The left took hold of culture and ripped down any natural differences and tried to blend both into one.

Neither system works.   If we could only raise children to be who they actually are rather than to fit into a stereotype, or force one to behave as the other, we would have a healthier society.

But I don't see that coming any time soon.

The solution is not to let boys beat each other up, but it is also not to say that the urge to hit someone is entirely out of bounds.

[bolobaby]

A wise post, Laura.   Culture has forced both boys and girls into small boxes so that artistic boys and adventurous girls were completely ostracized.   The left took hold of culture and ripped down any natural differences and tried to blend both into one.

Neither system works.   If we could only raise children to be who they actually are rather than to fit into a stereotype, or force one to behave as the other, we would have a healthier society.

But I don't see that coming any time soon.

The solution is not to let boys beat each other up, but it is also not to say that the urge to hit someone is entirely out of bounds.

@LauraTXNM @musiclady

Once again, though, the problem boils down to liberals: they HATE and are INTOLERANT of whatever they don't consider their ideal.

So, if you WANT to be a mom, who runs a clean and organized house, who cooks delicious meals for her man, and doesn't seek a University degree, they belittle you.

If conservatives were in charge of the culture, we COULD have both, because conservatives actually find value in BOTH roles. Liberals - not so much.

Finally, I wouldn't say that the solution is the Hunger Games for our children. But I would say that getting into a scrap every now and then shouldn't be treated as the end of the world. Oh, yeah, you're gonna get detention, but let kids understand the consequences of violence when the most they can do is scrape up their opponents a little.

[truth_seeker]

Used to be if two boys were caught fighting, they would give both a pair of boxing gloves and they'd go at it.   And usually what ended up happening afterwards was the two came out with respect for each other, and in many cases, became friends.

My father's instructions: a) Don't fight, b) If you fight, don't lose.

[LauraTXNM]

@LauraTXNM @musiclady

Once again, though, the problem boils down to liberals: they HATE and are INTOLERANT of whatever they don't consider their ideal.

So, if you WANT to be a mom, who runs a clean and organized house, who cooks delicious meals for her man, and doesn't seek a University degree, they belittle you.

If conservatives were in charge of the culture, we COULD have both, because conservatives actually find value in BOTH roles. Liberals - not so much.

Finally, I wouldn't say that the solution is the Hunger Games for our children. But I would say that getting into a scrap every now and then shouldn't be treated as the end of the world. Oh, yeah, you're gonna get detention, but let kids understand the consequences of violence when the most they can do is scrape up their opponents a little.

I'm sorry, but I call BS.  Boys who were effeminate used to have the sh-t kicked out of them frequently, often by their dads.  I would call this a traditional rather than a liberal or conservative issue, though my friends who had the sh-t beaten out of them mostly grew up in more conservative households.  The idea that you had to be a certain way to be "a real man" who didn't cry, demonstrate emotion, all the stereotypes, is an old-school notion.  From John Wayne to "The Godfather" -- "women and children can be careless, not men." 

And you all really need to look at women today, who can be homemakers or working professionals or both.  No one is telling us we can't, except for a few voices saying that children can't be raised right without a parent in the home, or that women should have careers to the exclusion of childbearing.  I am a liberal, and a feminist, and I don't believe in that BS.  Neither do my friends, the women I went to college with in an old-fashioned "girls school". 

Once again, this does not need to be a liberal vs. conservative issue.  It is a matter of rcognizing traditions and history, keeping things that work and letting go of things that don't.

[LauraTXNM]

@LauraTXNM @musiclady

Finally, I wouldn't say that the solution is the Hunger Games for our children. But I would say that getting into a scrap every now and then shouldn't be treated as the end of the world. Oh, yeah, you're gonna get detention, but let kids understand the consequences of violence when the most they can do is scrape up their opponents a little.

I absolutely agree with you here.  Everyone should make mistakes as a kid, so they learn.  Now, A kid who fights all the time, that is someone who needs some help.

[GtHawk]

The question should be, are our children broken, and the answer is that too many of them are thanks to the liberals indoctrinating them at school, and in the media. Boys are emasculated and feminized, girls are butched up and family values and morals are demonized.
Children are told they can be any sex or mix of sexes they want and the children that have their heads on straight are punished berated if they don't accept the freaks and freakish ideas pushed by educators.

[musiclady]

@LauraTXNM @musiclady

Once again, though, the problem boils down to liberals: they HATE and are INTOLERANT of whatever they don't consider their ideal.

So, if you WANT to be a mom, who runs a clean and organized house, who cooks delicious meals for her man, and doesn't seek a University degree, they belittle you.

If conservatives were in charge of the culture, we COULD have both, because conservatives actually find value in BOTH roles. Liberals - not so much.

Finally, I wouldn't say that the solution is the Hunger Games for our children. But I would say that getting into a scrap every now and then shouldn't be treated as the end of the world. Oh, yeah, you're gonna get detention, but let kids understand the consequences of violence when the most they can do is scrape up their opponents a little.

Completely agree that the problem is with liberals because (most) conservatives are more tolerant of different ideas.

I speak as a girl who used to use her fists to solve problems (mostly with boys, but not all), and who grew up to be what I wanted to be....... a Mom, who stayed home with her kids and never found more fulfillment in anything than doing so, but who took the barbs of a leftist culture who wanted to deny me the choice, or give me the choice and then mock me for it.

What I object to is that there are still those on the right who say boys must be this way and girls must be that way, when the TRUTH is that God's creativity makes us all individuals, and any human attempt to force us into little round holes (especially those of us who are square, because God created us to be unique), is bound to harm a lot of people.

Perhaps, if conservatism had stood up more strongly for individuality than imposed social expectations, the left wouldn't have been able to get such a strong foothold and destroy not only our boys, but our girls....

@bolobaby