Author Topic: Why the fuss over adolescent relationships? My grandmother was 15 when she married.  (Read 3248 times)

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Offline endicom

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USA Today
Andrea Ruth
Dec. 11, 2017

It used to be kids were entrusted with a certain amount of autonomy as they entered into adolescence. Not anymore.

In December of 1951 my grandparents, Bob and Jenny, ages 19 and 15-½ at the time, drove from Kentucky to Tennessee to get married. When they returned to rural Manchester, Ky., there was no family meltdown, no trip to the police station. Jenny settled into her role as wife and aspiring registered nurse, while Bob enlisted in the Air Force.

Eleven months later my dad was born. If she was alive to ask, I’m sure Jenny would say she was too young to get married, but the point is no one made her think she wasn’t.

My great-grandparents weren’t thrilled Jenny ran off and got married (misrepresenting her age to do so), but they’d also guided their teen children to be autonomous and become young adults rather than overgrown children. They weren’t alone. Roughly 13% of marriages in 1950 took place between brides and grooms who were15-19 year-olds. In fact, in Tennessee at that time, it was significantly more likely you would marry for the first time in your mid to late teens than in your 30s.

More... https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2017/12/11/why-do-we-make-such-big-deal-out-adolescence-andrea-ruth-column/938998001/


Offline endicom

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There is food for thought here. We keep young people in an unnatural state of childhood and then expect them to be adult at some certain date.

Offline berdie

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I understand the "helicopter" parenting to a degree. there are so many kooks walking around.

But by the same token...kids lose a lot when they can't make an independent decision at a young age. And keeping them "children" until they are 26 or older is a huge disservice to them.

 I had my own apartment at 16 while in high school and a job. I married at 18..and it worked.

Online Smokin Joe

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There is food for thought here. We keep young people in an unnatural state of childhood and then expect them to be adult at some certain date.
With the result that all too many just don't grow up--ever.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline NavyCanDo

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My dad and many of his classmates graduated from school after the 8th grade,, few going on to higher grades and college. Quite common in the 1930s and 40s to leave school after the 8th grade and work on the farm or get a job to bring money home. His job was parking cars on Puget Sound ferries. Did that until he was old enough to join the Navy during WWII. They grew up fast back then.

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Online 240B

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My mother was purchased by my father from my grandfather for a pair of field boots, when she was 16. Mississippi in the 50's.
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Offline NavyCanDo

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The girl I would eventually marry was in the 6th grade when I graduated HS and joined the Navy. Seems strange when I think about it.
A nation that turns away from prayer will ultimately find itself in desperate need of it. :Jonathan Cahn

Offline goodwithagun

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My granny was 17. Thanks to that generation's acceptance of FDR's policies, they created a climate that makes what they did impossible without Big Gov handouts.
I stand with Roosgirl.

Online Smokin Joe

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My grandmother was 16 when she married my grandfather. They raised 4 children and she lived to 101 uears old.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline austingirl

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My sister was 18 when she married her 29  y/o fiancé in 1974. They are still married 43 years later, 5 kids, and 11 grandchildren.
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Offline Frank Cannon

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In December of 1951 my grandparents, Bob and Jenny, ages 19 and 15-½ at the time

Contracted polio.
Drank from a segregated fountain.
Had a much shorter life expectancy.
Could find a job where only one of them had to work.
Had a solid extended family unit.
Had a high probability of dying in a fender bender.
Had less than a high school education.
Didn't ever take the keys out of the ignition or lock their front door, if it even had one.
Got a paper twice a day to get the news.


Times were different then. Things change. The world we live in now and have for many decades have older men stay the hell away from young girls.



Online Smokin Joe

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In December of 1951 my grandparents, Bob and Jenny, ages 19 and 15-½ at the time

Contracted polio.
Drank from a segregated fountain.
Had a much shorter life expectancy.
Could find a job where only one of them had to work.
Had a solid extended family unit.
Had a high probability of dying in a fender bender.
Had less than a high school education.
Didn't ever take the keys out of the ignition or lock their front door, if it even had one.
Got a paper twice a day to get the news.


Times were different then. Things change. The world we live in now and have for many decades have older men stay the hell away from young girls.



Moore was alleged to have done something FORTY years ago. Most of it wasn't "wrong" by those standards, and what was alleged to have been wrong, the allegations had more holes than a screen door.
Yes the world has changed.
But he wasn't even alleged to have done anything in the  intervening years.
Not sure where you live, but this town still had a drive-in theater ten years ago. Not everywhere changes at the pace of the big cities--or even wants to. Especially when we see what sewers it makes of more 'modern' towns.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline DB

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Moore was alleged to have done something FORTY years ago. Most of it wasn't "wrong" by those standards, and what was alleged to have been wrong, the allegations had more holes than a screen door.
Yes the world has changed.
But he wasn't even alleged to have done anything in the  intervening years.
Not sure where you live, but this town still had a drive-in theater ten years ago. Not everywhere changes at the pace of the big cities--or even wants to. Especially when we see what sewers it makes of more 'modern' towns.

I disagree with you on what was normal 40 years ago. It wasn't normal here. I was exiting high school about 40 years ago so I have some perspective of the time. My high school had less than 200 kids in it. And we still have a drive-in theater nearby. Moore is not the hill to die on.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2017, 10:43:58 am by DB »

Online Smokin Joe

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I disagree with you on what was normal 40 years ago. It wasn't normal here. I was exiting high school about 40 years ago so I have some perspective of the time. My high school had less than 200 kids in it. And we still have a drive-in theater nearby. Moore is not the hill to die on.
Where is "here"? And as I have said, Moore had 4 years in West Point, two tours in the Army, and Law school. To return home and look around at the women in his age group all that was left were rejects, retreads, and the town pump. Older women would only have many of the same issues. Younger women would be the only pool of eligible and available and suitable mates. Think back to your 10 year High School Reunion and tell me how many there would have been women you would have considered suitable for marriage at that point. In that group, the 'good ones' had been taken.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline driftdiver

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Where is "here"? And as I have said, Moore had 4 years in West Point, two tours in the Army, and Law school. To return home and look around at the women in his age group all that was left were rejects, retreads, and the town pump. Older women would only have many of the same issues. Younger women would be the only pool of eligible and available and suitable mates. Think back to your 10 year High School Reunion and tell me how many there would have been women you would have considered suitable for marriage at that point. In that group, the 'good ones' had been taken.

@Smokin Joe @DB
Its been normal through most of human history.  Sure its abnormal now but then people are living longer now which has changed the norms.  In fact just a couple hundred years ago it was common for very young girls to be married off to older men.   Something we consider immoral and illegal.

If this 35 yr old man was dating 16-17 yr old girls its not illegal.   Something I doubt he could do without the parents permission.

Also considering that many of the accusations are clearly lies its quite apparent this is nothing but a politically inspired attack that many suckers bought.
Fools mock, tongues wag, babies cry and goats bleat.

Online Smokin Joe

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@Smokin Joe @DB
Its been normal through most of human history.  Sure its abnormal now but then people are living longer now which has changed the norms.  In fact just a couple hundred years ago it was common for very young girls to be married off to older men.   Something we consider immoral and illegal.

If this 35 yr old man was dating 16-17 yr old girls its not illegal.   Something I doubt he could do without the parents permission.

Also considering that many of the accusations are clearly lies its quite apparent this is nothing but a politically inspired attack that many suckers bought.
The other distortion is in the perception of a "date". Apparently, most here have decided a first date should include a steamy session on par with any fantasy found on a multitude of porn sites, and not a trip to the local soda fountain, malt shop, or movie theater, sans sex.
It isn't going out with them (with parental permission) that they apparently object to so much as their immediate expectation that such a liaison would be only for the purpose of hot steamy sex.
Maybe that is a big city thing, or a more modern one, but not there and then.
Not only would such have been highly unusual in an era when girls still deliberated at length over giving a kiss good night on a first date which went well, but a time when reputations were more closely guarded than the Windsor Crown Jewels.  Any female who put out on the first date was either an irredeemable slut or a prostitute, and definitely not worth considering for marriage by any respectable fellow.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Online Smokin Joe

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How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Perfect! :silly:
yeah, I like what Tom Hanks says about things.  See the movie
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

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Moore was alleged to have done something FORTY years ago. Most of it wasn't "wrong" by those standards, and what was alleged to have been wrong, the allegations had more holes than a screen door.
Yes the world has changed.
But he wasn't even alleged to have done anything in the  intervening years.
Not sure where you live, but this town still had a drive-in theater ten years ago. Not everywhere changes at the pace of the big cities--or even wants to. Especially when we see what sewers it makes of more 'modern' towns.

@Smokin Joe

I live in a little rural village right outside of Lynchburg, VA with a population of less than 1500 people...lots of farmers and rednecks, and I mean that in the most positive sense.  If some guy in his thirties made a practice of hanging at recitals and other venues to troll for teenagers, I can guarantee you a lot of sharp—-and for him, unwelcome—-attention would be focused on him.  It would not be viewed as anywhere near normal.

Even Breitbart now admits it believed the charges against Moore but pushed the reverse narrative anyway.

Offline goodwithagun

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@Smokin Joe

I live in a little rural village right outside of Lynchburg, VA with a population of less than 1500 people...lots of farmers and rednecks, and I mean that in the most positive sense.  If some guy in his thirties made a practice of hanging at recitals and other venues to troll for teenagers, I can guarantee you a lot of sharp—-and for him, unwelcome—-attention would be focused on him.  It would not be viewed as anywhere near normal.

Even Breitbart now admits it believed the charges against Moore but pushed the reverse narrative anyway.
  :amen:

And as far as his West Point and college credentials, what interest would somebody with that level of education and that life experience want with somebody in her teens?
I stand with Roosgirl.

Offline Cripplecreek

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Quote
Even Breitbart now admits it believed the charges against Moore but pushed the reverse narrative anyway.

Just like Trump admitting that he never really believed the story about Rafael Cruz and JFK but he told it anyway because he wanted to win.

That's called "lying" and it comes from the people screaming "FAKE NEWS" at anything they don't want to hear.

Online Smokin Joe

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  :amen:

And as far as his West Point and college credentials, what interest would somebody with that level of education and that life experience want with somebody in her teens?
Look around at the 30 year olds full of man hate on their second divorce, with a pile of kids, with a full blown drinking (now drugs, too) problem, or who through some other serious personality disorder, never married--pr not for long, and those just a dozen years older with more practice at their particular disqualifying quirk and tell me where his interest would lie? In someone without all that baggage, maybe? While there might be few rare exceptions (nationally, in the day of internet and dating aps), they'd be hard to connect with.
So maybe he sought someone free of well practiced dipsomania, dysfunction, a 'reputation', or the who had the refreshing absence of deep resentments from a prior relationship.

Funny you never raise the question of what she would see in him?

In an age when the differences between 30 and 17 might not be so great in terms of music, culture, and the television shows they'd watched (unlike today where even today's pop culture is so last week), the differences might not be so vast a gulf as to be insurmountable, in fact, far closer than the 'generation gap' of today.
So if he wanted to look for a prospective mate, he'd be wise to look at young women who hadn't developed and ingrained the sort of behaviour that would render them a poor choice, and who were not already married (at least once).
From the accounts of those who were of legal age, the ones I find most credible, he did not make sexual advances. Only those with questionable testimony, forged documents, and such claimed impropriety. The former behaviour is the same sort of 'exploratory' courting which might indicate if a relationship had potential without the carnal entanglements of sexual activity. As has been repeatedly pointed out, observing the proprieties, a date or two either can walk away from unsullied except in the wild imaginations of tongue wagging gossips, a way to remain respectable, unless, of course, viewed through the poison prism of 40 years of "progress" and the gravitational fields of the Washington Post and Liberal Media.

I really don't give a rabid rat's ass what anyone thinks, in that most of the accusers here are women, and have never seen dating from a guy's perspective, nor, from the comments are they capable of even trying to. Their maternal instincts have kicked into overdrive, even denying the relative maturity expressed by young ladies then, who were often preparing to marry that fellow from high school.

So, enough. Count coup on this my last post here on this topic if you must, but you won't change my mind, and I won't change yours.

It is comical so much is being ignored in this, but this isn't why Moore lost. Look at the demographic divisions:

Among white men, Moore got 72%, White women 63% of the vote.
Among Blacks, though, the score was markedly different: Black men 6%, Black Women, 2%

Overall, 68% of the 66% of voters who are white, 4% of the 33% of voters who are black.

That's what shut Moore down at the polls.

Dating 17 year olds had diddley squat to do with it.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2017, 01:09:14 am by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Silver Pines

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  :amen:

And as far as his West Point and college credentials, what interest would somebody with that level of education and that life experience want with somebody in her teens?

@goodwithagun

Imo, a man with some kind of deep insecurity about women his own age. 

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@CatherineofAragon

Just like Trump admitting that he never really believed the story about Rafael Cruz and JFK but he told it anyway because he wanted to win.

That's called "lying" and it comes from the people screaming "FAKE NEWS" at anything they don't want to hear.

@Cripplecreek

Right....believing a man is a molester but doing all you can to get him into office.  That's as evil as it gets.