Author Topic: Long Before Assault Allegations, Roy Moore Betrayed Conservatism: He was Not a Conservative to Begin with  (Read 5529 times)

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Offline musiclady

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Unless the men on this forum know Moore personally, or have some magical way to know things they have no proof of, none of them can say unequivokally that he is innocent.

And yet they do, with all manner of certaintly and hostility.

At this point NONE of us knows one way or the other what really happened to these girls.

We have reason to doubt the accusers as politically motivated, but we have no PROOF that he is either innocent or guilty.

So  I'd suggest that some of you stop hurling epithets at those who disagree, and let's all wait and find out.

KAY????   :shrug:
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

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Offline TomSea

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Unless the men on this forum know Moore personally, or have some magical way to know things they have no proof of, none of them can say unequivokally that he is innocent.

And yet they do, with all manner of certaintly and hostility.

At this point NONE of us knows one way or the other what really happened to these girls.

We have reason to doubt the accusers as politically motivated, but we have no PROOF that he is either innocent or guilty.

So  I'd suggest that some of you stop hurling epithets at those who disagree, and let's all wait and find out.

KAY????   :shrug:

Totally agree, I'm against the use of blindly throwing out epithets and name-calling.

Online Bigun

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Unless the men on this forum know Moore personally, or have some magical way to know things they have no proof of, none of them can say unequivokally that he is innocent.

And yet they do, with all manner of certaintly and hostility.

At this point NONE of us knows one way or the other what really happened to these girls.

We have reason to doubt the accusers as politically motivated, but we have no PROOF that he is either innocent or guilty.

So  I'd suggest that some of you stop hurling epithets at those who disagree, and let's all wait and find out.

KAY????   :shrug:

Except for the fact that innocent until PROVEN guilty is a LONG TERM legal concept that has been a part of this country's law since well before it's founding you might have a legitimate point!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline musiclady

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Except for the fact that innocent until PROVEN guilty is a LONG TERM legal concept that has been a part of this country's law since well before it's founding you might have a legitimate point!

The legal matter is quite a different point than screaming at people who have doubts of his innocence, and accusing them of BS'ing

There is no way to know one way or the other,  so a bit of tolerance of another's perspective is all I'm talking about.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Online Bigun

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The legal matter is quite a different point than screaming at people who have doubts of his innocence, and accusing them of BS'ing

There is no way to know one way or the other,  so a bit of tolerance of another's perspective is all I'm talking about.

I have no problem at all with people making their own personal assessment and the voters of the state of Alabama will ultimately decide based on theirs!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline roamer_1

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The legal matter is quite a different point than screaming at people who have doubts of his innocence, and accusing them of BS'ing

There is no way to know one way or the other,  so a bit of tolerance of another's perspective is all I'm talking about.

Innocent until proven guilty is not merely for legal matters @musiclady . It is the standard which prevents false accusations.

Offline musiclady

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Innocent until proven guilty is not merely for legal matters @musiclady . It is the standard which prevents false accusations.

Again............ my point was the harsh condemnation and misrepresentation of any who dare entertain the thought that he might be guilty.

No one knows.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Again............ my point was the harsh condemnation and misrepresentation of any who dare entertain the thought that he might be guilty.

No one knows.
There is plenty of harsh condemnation and misrepresentation of a man who should be seeing the presumption of innocence from posters on a conservative site, but who instead are condemning him with inflammatory rhetoric and distortions of fact.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline roamer_1

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There is plenty of harsh condemnation and misrepresentation of a man who should be seeing the presumption of innocence from posters on a conservative site, but who instead are condemning him with inflammatory rhetoric and distortions of fact.

^^^THIS^^^

Offline musiclady

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There is plenty of harsh condemnation and misrepresentation of a man who should be seeing the presumption of innocence from posters on a conservative site, but who instead are condemning him with inflammatory rhetoric and distortions of fact.

That's why BOTH sides need to calm down since neither side knows the facts.

I've seen people assume "facts" presuming innocence that are nothing more than opinion.

What I'm saying is that this is a two way street here, and people like me who haven't drawn conclusions either way are just watching the rumble and wondering why emotions are running so high when NO one knows the truth.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline Machiavelli

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Roy Moore Has a History of Contempt for The Law

True. Moore is a crackpot.

Offline roamer_1

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That's why BOTH sides need to calm down since neither side knows the facts.

I've seen people assume "facts" presuming innocence that are nothing more than opinion.

What I'm saying is that this is a two way street here, and people like me who haven't drawn conclusions either way are just watching the rumble and wondering why emotions are running so high when NO one knows the truth.

@musiclady

The fact presuming innocence is a long and exemplary record toward honor and integrity. That fact is the only fact that is without question, and it should take a helluva lot more to tear it down. That is why it is not a two way street.

A woman thirty years standing on her honor would not be swiftly shaken in my eyes either, if accused of adultery or fornication. The fact is her honor. The evidence has to be enough to offset that, which should be a very high bar.

That's what honor buys you. The presumption of what you are, by way of the life you've lead. If that is no longer the case, there is no reason to remain honorable.

Online Bigun

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True. Moore is a crackpot.

Yep!  Until you look at the facts that is!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Machiavelli

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Yep!  Until you look at the facts that is!

I'm not addressing the current underage dating issue. Innocent until proven guilty is still in force for me as it should be for everyone.

This turkey was removed not once but twice from his chief justice position.

I can't believe that so many conservatives see him as a hero. He's an assclown.

Online Bigun

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I'm not addressing the current underage dating issue. Innocent until proven guilty is still in force for me as it should be for everyone.

This turkey was removed not once but twice from his chief justice position.

I can't believe that so many conservatives see him as a hero. He's an assclown.

He was doing his job!  And upholding the oath he swore when he assumed that office.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Smokin Joe

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That's why BOTH sides need to calm down since neither side knows the facts.

I've seen people assume "facts" presuming innocence that are nothing more than opinion.

What I'm saying is that this is a two way street here, and people like me who haven't drawn conclusions either way are just watching the rumble and wondering why emotions are running so high when NO one knows the truth.
There are facts, and there are accounts which have been distorted by selective editing, or being taken out of context. There is a lot of bloviation which can be addressed, and that is a lot of what some of us are doing. We're looking at what is being presented as 'fact' and where that and reality don't flange up, we're pointing that out.

That so much of the 'case' against Moore is being dealt with thus (taken out of context or selectively edited to appear as if it might support some other statement, conflated with irrelevant events involving other people, and a host of pejoratives which do not belong in a rational and factual discussion) in the media, especially, makes me question the veracity of statements being made against him.

Everything is aimed at manipulating public opinion in a trial by media, and not letting facts speak for themselves. When the truth has to be taken out of context or manipulated to make a case against someone, then my Innocent until PROVEN guilty instinct kicks in just that much harder.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline LMAO

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I'm not addressing the current underage dating issue. Innocent until proven guilty is still in force for me as it should be for everyone.

This turkey was removed not once but twice from his chief justice position.

I can't believe that so many conservatives see him as a hero. He's an assclown.

 :amen:
I have little interest in streamlining government or in making it more efficient, for I mean to reduce its size. I do not undertake to promote welfare, for I propose to extend freedom. My aim is not to pass laws, but to repeal them.

Barry Goldwater

http://www.usdebtclock.org

My Avatar is my adult autistic son Tommy

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There are facts, and there are accounts which have been distorted by selective editing, or being taken out of context. There is a lot of bloviation which can be addressed, and that is a lot of what some of us are doing. We're looking at what is being presented as 'fact' and where that and reality don't flange up, we're pointing that out.

That so much of the 'case' against Moore is being dealt with thus (taken out of context or selectively edited to appear as if it might support some other statement, conflated with irrelevant events involving other people, and a host of pejoratives which do not belong in a rational and factual discussion) in the media, especially, makes me question the veracity of statements being made against him.

Everything is aimed at manipulating public opinion in a trial by media, and not letting facts speak for themselves. When the truth has to be taken out of context or manipulated to make a case against someone, then my Innocent until PROVEN guilty instinct kicks in just that much harder.

@Smokin Joe

I want to step in here, just in case you're referring to the newspaper clipping.  I want it on the record that I've done no "selected editing" nor have I tried to misrepresent anything.

You say that Moore should be presumed innocent on a conservative website.  I think conservatives should (and most likely do, in all truth) understand that we're not in a court of law, and in such cases outside a court of law, you weigh the information you have, and you make a judgment from that.  Waiting for proof is a punt.  Either Moore is lying, or all of the family members, friends, the people who worked with him, the women themselves, the cop who kicked him out of the mall, etc.   

Moore is a politician.  We owe him nothing.  And I am tired of denial based on tribalism.


Offline Smokin Joe

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@Smokin Joe

I want to step in here, just in case you're referring to the newspaper clipping.  I want it on the record that I've done no "selected editing" nor have I tried to misrepresent anything.

You say that Moore should be presumed innocent on a conservative website.  I think conservatives should (and most likely do, in all truth) understand that we're not in a court of law, and in such cases outside a court of law, you weigh the information you have, and you make a judgment from that.  Waiting for proof is a punt.  Either Moore is lying, or all of the family members, friends, the people who worked with him, the women themselves, the cop who kicked him out of the mall, etc.   

Moore is a politician.  We owe him nothing.  And I am tired of denial based on tribalism.
Sorry, whoever posted that clipped bit of one column of that article edited the bejeebers out of the article and took that out of context. I provided the whole article to put those lines back in context, and did not mean that you, personally had done the edit. I'm just disappointed that with a few mouse clicks such things can be found and we can see what was really said,  but people are too lazy to look for the whole picture.

According to articles I have seen, He was not banned from any mall. Link any statement to the contrary, please.
If there is a policeman who says he was, please link that and provide a name.

What family members have spoken against him? Link, please.
 
The people who worked for him rolled their eyes (if you read the ENTIRE clipping), because Moore thought people in the office were dragging things out for profit, and that he seemed to think (in their estimation) he was the only one there who wasn't corrupt. That's a work thing, not sexual misconduct. The two do not equate. If you have information otherwise, please link it. I saw the vapid statements like "oh, I could tell you things, but won't" which amount to crap, especially in a context which relates more to job performance than personal (sexual) conduct.

That leaves two women who claim sexual contact and one who says he allegedly grabbed her ass on the way out the door.  The latter seems pretty out of place for behaviour short of a strip bar, and that will get you thrown out of most of those, so I'm not seeing it. One has produced a yearbook with some sketchy possible modifications to an alleged signature. There is back and forth about how much of her divorce case he personally dealt with. And one who produced a lurid, incredibly detailed account of how he had allegedly had contact with her while she was under age.

No one else claims he acted improperly toward them.

There is a lot of imagery and set dressing trying to frame Roy Moore as some sort of sex maniac, a man who cannot restrain some sort of overwhelming urge to engage in sexual contact with unwilling ladies, and even to paint him as a "child molester". What I am seeing is a lot of innuendo, and stuff left to the lurid imaginations of the readers. But little verifiable information, which boils down to a situation where people believe what they want to believe. Most of the set dressing blows away when remarks are put back into context, full comments are read, or information is accurately disclosed.

If you believe the guy who twice lost his job for defying District Judges' orders, once to take down the Ten Commandments, and once to issue gay marriage licenses (against the Alabama Constitution) is some sort of serial "child molester" or sex maniac, That's up to you, but I'm, going to disagree. There has been plenty of time for these allegations to have surfaced, numerous opportunities to make some moral objection to Judge Moore running for an office. That just hasn't happened until it looks like he might actually have a shot (leading in the polls) at being elected as a US Senator. Then, and only then, have the long media knives come out, despite his having been embroiled in numerous political controversies.

When he had beaten Strange and had a double digit poll lead over Jones, then this happened. Sorry, but imho, that stinks on ice.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2017, 01:42:54 am by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline roamer_1

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@Smokin Joe
You say that Moore should be presumed innocent on a conservative website.  I think conservatives should (and most likely do, in all truth) understand that we're not in a court of law, and in such cases outside a court of law, you weigh the information you have, and you make a judgment from that.  Waiting for proof is a punt.  Either Moore is lying, or all of the family members, friends, the people who worked with him, the women themselves, the cop who kicked him out of the mall, etc.   

@CatherineofAragon
There's your problem, right there. Proof is all that matters, ever. There's a reason for that old adage that a 'ham sandwich can be indicted' - Without proof, without fair proceedings, it is nothing but a witch hunt.

Quote
Moore is a politician.  We owe him nothing.  And I am tired of denial based on tribalism.

WHAT tribalism? Most of those defending Moore are not Republicans. You'll have to come up with something else.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2017, 01:43:22 am by roamer_1 »

Offline roamer_1

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He was doing his job!  And upholding the oath he swore when he assumed that office.

IN FACT, true to his oath and his word. True to the principle of the thing. And against all odds. That is the direct opposite of 'assclown'.

Offline Machiavelli

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He's an extremist. He was twice removed from office for violating the law. He's a birther and a creationist. He wants to ban Muslims from serving in Congress. He's not an anti-establishment hero. He's a nut.

Offline LMAO

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He's an extremist. He was twice removed from office for violating the law. He's a birther and a creationist. He wants to ban Muslims from serving in Congress. He's not an anti-establishment hero. He's a nut.

It seems too many believe that violating the law is upholding it
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Online Bigun

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It seems too many believe that violating the law is upholding it

It also seems that a great number who claim to be conservative are actually anything but!  The masks are being ripped off very quickly here!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

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Innocent until proven guilty is not merely for legal matters @musiclady . It is the standard which prevents false accusations.

@roamer_1

We make decisions all the time without hard, tangible proof.

If I heard that my husband was cheating on me (and that would never happen, so I feel bad saying it) I wouldn’t assume it was true.  But if I started getting confirmation from various sources, with witnesses to back it up, I would have to re-evaluate.

That’s how it’s done outside of court.  Moore isn’t trying to stay out of jail; he’s just a politician trying for higher office.  Proof isn’t necessary to make a judgment in these cases.