Author Topic: Do Alabama Voters Have a Right to Elect Who They Please? Washington Says NO  (Read 1815 times)

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Offline TomSea

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Re: Do Alabama Voters Have a Right to Elect Who They Please? Washington Says NO
« Reply #25 on: November 15, 2017, 01:43:48 am »
The problem is that too many on "our side" decided to completely disregard what we had always held as a standard for Presidential nominees, when they decided that it didn't matter that "our" nominee bragged about his own perversion and sexual predation.

We have lost all moral ground, and I see no way forward to gain it back.

It's a lot more moral than Dubya's ill-managed wars that has started the eradication of Christianity in the Middle East.

Offline Fishrrman

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Re: Do Alabama Voters Have a Right to Elect Who They Please? Washington Says NO
« Reply #26 on: November 15, 2017, 01:45:14 am »
I sailed wrote:
"The irony of all of this is yes, the voters of Alabama have every right to elect who they wish; however, the Senate does not have to seat that person nor do the voters have a right to remove one from office once he gets there."

No, you are wrong about this, and once more I'll post why.

It goes back to a U.S. Supreme Court Case in 1969 involving Adam Clayton Powell.
See here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powell_v._McCormack

To wit:
The House or Senate CANNOT REFUSE to seat a duly-elected representative or senator.
Once seated, that person can be expelled with a 2/3 vote, but only after first having been seated in Congress.

If Alabama elects Judge Moore, he WILL be seated into the Senate.
ONLY THEN can the Senate move to "expel" him, and only with a two-thirds vote.

My prediction, however, is if they try this, things are not going to go as predicted or expected...

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Do Alabama Voters Have a Right to Elect Who They Please? Washington Says NO
« Reply #27 on: November 15, 2017, 04:57:50 am »
@INVAR

I'm coming more to that conclusion with every passing day but and I'm to damned old now to be much of a factor in the the end.
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Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Do Alabama Voters Have a Right to Elect Who They Please? Washington Says NO
« Reply #28 on: November 15, 2017, 01:02:27 pm »
The key to all this is the Alabama Republican Party.   Alabama voters aren't being asked to directly elect Roy Moore to the Senate.   They are being asked to elect the nominee of the Republican Party of Alabama to the Senate.   The Alabama GOP is a private organization, that can choose to rescind its nomination on the basis of its view that a creep harms its reputation. 

This is all acknowledged by the Secretary of State of Alabama, who said yesterday that if the Alabama GOP withdraws its support for its nominee, and Moore still wins,  the election will be declared null and void.    The implication is that if Moore were to drop out,  and still win,  the election would similarly be declared null and void. 

Fast action is required,  because if either of these scenarios can be effected,  pressure can be brought to bear on the Governor of Alabama to support postponing the special election so the GOP can run a new nominee (maybe even Jeff Sessions himself).   
« Last Edit: November 15, 2017, 01:04:31 pm by Jazzhead »
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Oceander

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Re: Do Alabama Voters Have a Right to Elect Who They Please? Washington Says NO
« Reply #29 on: November 15, 2017, 01:43:52 pm »
They will be in violation of the Constitution of the United States, refusing the People of the State of Alabama their duly elected representation in the Senate.

No, they won’t.  That sounds like a liberal whinging that Trump should be impeached because he met with Russians during the campaign. 

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Do Alabama Voters Have a Right to Elect Who They Please? Washington Says NO
« Reply #30 on: November 15, 2017, 02:28:40 pm »
No, they won’t.  That sounds like a liberal whinging that Trump should be impeached because he met with Russians during the campaign.

Not sure I agree.  Liberals whine about Trump suggesting the Russian thing requires a do-over.   No - the people have spoken to elect the duly-nominated candidate of the Republican Party.

Similarly,  if Alabama voters elect the duly-nominated candidate of the Republican Party, then IMO their sovereignty must be respected and the nominee seated.    The way out is for Alabama Republican party to rescind its nomination, thereby pressuring the Governor to postpone the special election.   
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Do Alabama Voters Have a Right to Elect Who They Please? Washington Says NO
« Reply #31 on: November 15, 2017, 03:56:24 pm »
No, they won’t.  That sounds like a liberal whinging that Trump should be impeached because he met with Russians during the campaign.
If he is elected, they have to seat him. They can kick him out after they seat him, but they can't kick him out beforehand.

I don't see what that possibly has to do with liberals (except the ones calling for circumventing the Constitution), or Trump, or Russia, for that matter.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: Do Alabama Voters Have a Right to Elect Who They Please? Washington Says NO
« Reply #32 on: November 15, 2017, 09:30:29 pm »
I sailed wrote:
"The irony of all of this is yes, the voters of Alabama have every right to elect who they wish; however, the Senate does not have to seat that person nor do the voters have a right to remove one from office once he gets there."

No, you are wrong about this, and once more I'll post why.

It goes back to a U.S. Supreme Court Case in 1969 involving Adam Clayton Powell.
See here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powell_v._McCormack

To wit:
The House or Senate CANNOT REFUSE to seat a duly-elected representative or senator.
Once seated, that person can be expelled with a 2/3 vote, but only after first having been seated in Congress.

If Alabama elects Judge Moore, he WILL be seated into the Senate.
ONLY THEN can the Senate move to "expel" him, and only with a two-thirds vote.

My prediction, however, is if they try this, things are not going to go as predicted or expected...
You are correct on the seating.  I should have said expelled from the body.

My main point was the irony that voters elect, but voters cannot remove.
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline musiclady

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Re: Do Alabama Voters Have a Right to Elect Who They Please? Washington Says NO
« Reply #33 on: November 15, 2017, 09:33:21 pm »
You are correct on the seating.  I should have said expelled from the body.

My main point was the irony that voters elect, but voters cannot remove.

That's what happens in a Representative Republic.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Do Alabama Voters Have a Right to Elect Who They Please? Washington Says NO
« Reply #34 on: November 15, 2017, 10:32:57 pm »
That's what happens in a Representative Republic.
I think it might be more representative if the right to recall Congresspersons was retained by the people. --actually, if you want that Republic to function as designed, repeal the 17th Amendment, and the People would retain the right to recall Representatives; the State Legislatures would retain the right to recall Senators (because the State Legislatures would elect them).
« Last Edit: November 15, 2017, 10:52:02 pm by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline INVAR

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Re: Do Alabama Voters Have a Right to Elect Who They Please? Washington Says NO
« Reply #35 on: November 15, 2017, 10:45:33 pm »
I think it might be more representative if the right to recall Congresspersons was retained by the people. --actually, if you want that Republic to function as designed, repeal the 17th Amendment, and the People would retain the right to recall Representatives the State Legislatures would retain the right to recall Senators (because the State Legislatures would elect them).

The would destroy the foundational rock that has established the push for a pure Democracy here, so forget it - that's not gonna happen.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Do Alabama Voters Have a Right to Elect Who They Please? Washington Says NO
« Reply #36 on: November 15, 2017, 10:47:51 pm »
The would destroy the foundational rock that has established the push for a pure Democracy here, so forget it - that's not gonna happen.
Oh, Democracy! Two wolves and a lamb, voting on the dinner menu.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: Do Alabama Voters Have a Right to Elect Who They Please? Washington Says NO
« Reply #37 on: November 15, 2017, 10:50:46 pm »
That's what happens in a Representative Republic.
In my mind it is not.  Why should voters have the right to approve but give up the right to disapprove of a Senator once he is in office?

Exactly how do you define a Representative Republic?
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Do Alabama Voters Have a Right to Elect Who They Please? Washington Says NO
« Reply #38 on: November 15, 2017, 11:13:47 pm »

Exactly how do you define a Representative Republic?
Isn't that where people get together and elect the guy they want the most of the ones the parties would back, the one who will give them the most stuff for freeeee!, and then they get in office and don't do what they said they would (except some of the freeee! stuff), and blame everyone else for not giving the people who elected them all the freeee! stuff they promised, (which is why they need to be reelected so they can 'give them the rest' sometime during a long and lucrative career of selling the country down the river into bondage)?

 :shrug:
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: Do Alabama Voters Have a Right to Elect Who They Please? Washington Says NO
« Reply #39 on: November 15, 2017, 11:44:48 pm »
Isn't that where people get together and elect the guy they want the most of the ones the parties would back, the one who will give them the most stuff for freeeee!, and then they get in office and don't do what they said they would (except some of the freeee! stuff), and blame everyone else for not giving the people who elected them all the freeee! stuff they promised, (which is why they need to be reelected so they can 'give them the rest' sometime during a long and lucrative career of selling the country down the river into bondage)?

 :shrug:
i sure wish it were not so.
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline InHeavenThereIsNoBeer

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Re: Do Alabama Voters Have a Right to Elect Who They Please? Washington Says NO
« Reply #40 on: November 16, 2017, 12:45:10 am »
I think it might be more representative if the right to recall Congresspersons was retained by the people. --actually, if you want that Republic to function as designed, repeal the 17th Amendment, and the People would retain the right to recall Representatives; the State Legislatures would retain the right to recall Senators (because the State Legislatures would elect them).

Putting aside the mistake of the 17th, I think what we have (had) is about right.  We only elect House members for two years.  That's a short enough time that they can't get away with too much before they have to stand for re-election, which is close to an equivalent of recall without us having to deal with the nearly constant recall movements that I believe would be inevitable if available.  The nature of the Senate, IMO, lends itself to a longer term.

To me, recall smacks too close to democracy, while relatively short terms w/o recall is representation with the acceptance that that sometimes you're not going to like what your "representatives" do (or don't in this case).

The interesting question, IMO, is should the determination (recall vs not) be made at the federal or state level, and should it be the same for both houses (assuming we gut the 17th).
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Do Alabama Voters Have a Right to Elect Who They Please? Washington Says NO
« Reply #41 on: November 16, 2017, 02:48:10 am »
Putting aside the mistake of the 17th, I think what we have (had) is about right.  We only elect House members for two years.  That's a short enough time that they can't get away with too much before they have to stand for re-election, which is close to an equivalent of recall without us having to deal with the nearly constant recall movements that I believe would be inevitable if available.  The nature of the Senate, IMO, lends itself to a longer term.

To me, recall smacks too close to democracy, while relatively short terms w/o recall is representation with the acceptance that that sometimes you're not going to like what your "representatives" do (or don't in this case).

The interesting question, IMO, is should the determination (recall vs not) be made at the federal or state level, and should it be the same for both houses (assuming we gut the 17th).
I would make the ability to conduct a recall available to the states, to be either statutorily permitted or not at the discretion of the State. Consider the recall is the ultimate voter veto, the State Legislature would vote to recall the Senate, should they have cause, and the voters a Representative. That way the office holder would be beholden to the people who elected them in the event of misfeasance or nonfeasance or high crimes or misdemeanors while in office. 


That presumes repeal of the 17th, of course.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2017, 02:48:43 am by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline KingsX

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Re: Do Alabama Voters Have a Right to Elect Who They Please? Washington Says NO
« Reply #42 on: November 16, 2017, 02:57:47 am »



When all else fails... I just think of myself as a fifth generation POW.



Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Do Alabama Voters Have a Right to Elect Who They Please? Washington Says NO
« Reply #43 on: November 16, 2017, 05:17:18 am »


When all else fails... I just think of myself as a fifth generation POW.

You're a strange bird, Kings.  Sometimes I wanna throttle you, but some times I just wanna hug you.... :shrug:
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Offline KingsX

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Re: Do Alabama Voters Have a Right to Elect Who They Please? Washington Says NO
« Reply #44 on: November 16, 2017, 09:19:20 am »


You're a strange bird, Kings.  Sometimes I wanna throttle you, but some times I just wanna hug you.... :shrug:



lol

Why are you so emotional ?




Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Do Alabama Voters Have a Right to Elect Who They Please? Washington Says NO
« Reply #45 on: November 16, 2017, 12:49:27 pm »

lol

Why are you so emotional ?

What can I say?  It's my nature...I think it's the sugar rush from the donuts.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed: