Author Topic: What If the Russian Revolution Had Never Happened?  (Read 260 times)

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Online endicom

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What If the Russian Revolution Had Never Happened?
« on: November 12, 2017, 10:12:42 AM »
New York Times
Simon Sebag Montefiore
Nov. 6, 2017

The October Revolution, organized by Vladimir Lenin exactly a century ago, is still relevant today in ways that would have seemed unimaginable when Soviet Communism collapsed.

Marxist-Leninism (albeit in the unique capitalist-Maoist form) still propels China, the world’s surging hyperpower, even as that same ideology ruins Cuba and Venezuela. Meanwhile, North Korea, a dystopian Leninist monarchy with nuclear weapons, terrifies the world. Even more surprisingly, Communism is experiencing a resurrection in democratic Britain: Jeremy Corbyn, that quasi-Leninist comfortingly disguised as cuddly grey-beard, is the most extreme politician ever to lead one of Britain’s two main parties, and he is inching toward power.

More... https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/06/opinion/russian-revolution-october.html


Counterfactual history is fun as you can have it your way. Overall, a good article.

Offline KingsX

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Re: What If the Russian Revolution Had Never Happened?
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2017, 11:44:29 PM »



Russia had two revolutions in 1917. 

Presidents Roosevelt, Taft and Wilson promoted the destruction of Russia's 900 year old Christian monarchy.

In his famous April 1917 war speech to Congress, Wilson praised the revolutionaries who had just deposed Russia's monarchy a few weeks earlier and called them America's "partner."  In that same speech Wilson said the war [WW1] was to make the world safe for democracy.

Ironically,  back in 1857 another speech was given before Congressmen at the Capitol in DC which advocated the US destroy European monarchies via war and revolution.  60 years later that is exactly what happened.




« Last Edit: November 12, 2017, 11:50:20 PM by KingsX »

Online TomSea

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Re: What If the Russian Revolution Had Never Happened?
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2017, 11:50:45 PM »

Presidents Roosevelt, Taft and Wilson promoted the destruction of Russia's 900 year old Christian monarchy.

In his famous April 1917 war speech to Congress, Wilson praised the revolutionaries who had just deposed Russia's monarchy a few weeks earlier and called them America's "partner."  In that same speech Wilson said the war [WW1] was to make the world safe for democracy.

Ironically,  back in 1857 another speech was given before Congressmen at the Capitol in DC which advocated the US destroy European monarchies via war and revolution.  60 years later that is exactly what happened.

Well, the USA was founded in protest of monarchy, partly at least, I'd say.

So that means, even way back then, we were erring in promoting democracy. It works for us, it might work for a few other places like, let's say Canada but it doesn't necessarily work everywhere, Egypt? Elect the Muslim Brotherhood, etc. etc.

Edit on: That's my general take, I'm not sure if I agree with the stated history because I simply do not know that history.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2017, 11:51:36 PM by TomSea »

Offline KingsX

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Re: What If the Russian Revolution Had Never Happened?
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2017, 12:08:24 AM »


Well, the USA was founded in protest of monarchy, partly at least, I'd say.

So that means, even way back then, we were erring in promoting democracy. It works for us, it might work for a few other places like, let's say Canada but it doesn't necessarily work everywhere, Egypt? Elect the Muslim Brotherhood, etc. etc.

Edit on: That's my general take, I'm not sure if I agree with the stated history because I simply do not know that history.





The USA... born in rebellion against its king... really was the "new order of the ages."

The horrific French Revolution... which came on the heels of the American Revolution and was inspired by it... exposes the hidden dangers.



Offline KingsX

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Re: What If the Russian Revolution Had Never Happened?
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2017, 12:26:58 AM »


@Tom Sea

Since history is written from the "winners" point of view...
when I was in college I took courses in history from the losers
point of view.  The American Revolution from the British view,
the Civil War from the Confederate view, etc.

I have come to appreciate the little known aspects of history
that are as important... and sometimes more important...
than what is generally taught.



Offline KingsX

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Re: What If the Russian Revolution Had Never Happened?
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2017, 01:02:40 AM »


Here's another interesting irony...

Tsarist Russia was the heir to Byzantium and used Byzantium's calendar until that calendar ended.

Since Byzantium's calendar was religious, it's last year related to the end of the world.  As that last year approached,  Russians become apocalyptic, thinking the end of the world was coming.

So what was that last year on the old Byzantium/Russian calendar ??

1492... the year Columbus discovered the New World.



Online Sanguine

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Re: What If the Russian Revolution Had Never Happened?
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2017, 08:48:19 AM »


The USA... born in rebellion against its king... really was the "new order of the ages."

The horrific French Revolution... which came on the heels of the American Revolution and was inspired by it... exposes the hidden dangers.

It shows very clearly the difference between populism/democracy and a constitutional republic.
Now is the time to "hold his feet to the fire".

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Online endicom

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Re: What If the Russian Revolution Had Never Happened?
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2017, 08:57:44 AM »


Russia had two revolutions in 1917. 

Presidents Roosevelt, Taft and Wilson promoted the destruction of Russia's 900 year old Christian monarchy.

In his famous April 1917 war speech to Congress, Wilson praised the revolutionaries who had just deposed Russia's monarchy a few weeks earlier and called them America's "partner."  In that same speech Wilson said the war [WW1] was to make the world safe for democracy.

Ironically,  back in 1857 another speech was given before Congressmen at the Capitol in DC which advocated the US destroy European monarchies via war and revolution.  60 years later that is exactly what happened.


In 1918, Wilson sent the troops into Siberia, Murmansk and Archangel. They weren't there to support the Reds.


Online Sanguine

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Re: What If the Russian Revolution Had Never Happened?
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2017, 09:04:17 AM »

In 1918, Wilson sent the troops into Siberia, Murmansk and Archangel. They weren't there to support the Reds.

No, they weren't.  We happen to have one of the Polar Bears in our family.  He was at Archangel.  And, pi$$ed about it until his death.
Now is the time to "hold his feet to the fire".

There are no safe spaces in real life.   - LMAO

Walk in Wisdom
See then that you walk circumspectly, not as fools but as wise, redeeming the time, because the days are evil.

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Re: What If the Russian Revolution Had Never Happened?
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2017, 09:18:27 AM »
The good old USA propped up the Soviet Union bigly from the early 1920's onward or it would have failed inside of the first ten years.

Online Bigun

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Re: What If the Russian Revolution Had Never Happened?
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2017, 09:23:06 AM »

In 1918, Wilson sent the troops into Siberia, Murmansk and Archangel. They weren't there to support the Reds.


For those who don't know (almost everyone with public school "educations")  here is a pretty good primer on the subject.

http://www.criticalenquiry.org/history/polarbear.shtml




Online Sanguine

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Re: What If the Russian Revolution Had Never Happened?
« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2017, 09:27:18 AM »
For those who don't know (almost everyone with public school "educations")  here is a pretty good primer on the subject.

http://www.criticalenquiry.org/history/polarbear.shtml


I have to admit I probably wouldn't have known had a family member not been a participant.

Thanks for the link.
Now is the time to "hold his feet to the fire".

There are no safe spaces in real life.   - LMAO

Walk in Wisdom
See then that you walk circumspectly, not as fools but as wise, redeeming the time, because the days are evil.

But the noble make noble plans, and by noble deeds they stand.

Online endicom

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Re: What If the Russian Revolution Had Never Happened?
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2017, 09:38:44 AM »
For those who don't know (almost everyone with public school "educations")  here is a pretty good primer on the subject.

http://www.criticalenquiry.org/history/polarbear.shtml


Thanks.

I've been partial to this, http://www.worldwar1.com/dbc/siberia.htm, on the Siberian campaign as I think it very well written. The back story, IIRC, is that her grandfather was a 'Wolfhound.'

Project Gutenberg has some old books on the matter.


Offline Weird Tolkienish Figure

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Re: What If the Russian Revolution Had Never Happened?
« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2017, 09:40:59 AM »
Useless debate.

What if ____ never happened?

Well obviously things would be different.
I am not a conservative.

Offline KingsX

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Re: What If the Russian Revolution Had Never Happened?
« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2017, 03:08:34 AM »


In 1918, Wilson sent the troops into Siberia, Murmansk and Archangel. They weren't there to support the Reds.



After Wilson supported revolution against Russia's Tsar...
and "democratic" revolution continued to its bolshevik end,
token troops were sent to Russia at the request of US allies.
Meanwhile it had been Wilson who granted a US passport
for Trotsky [who was living in New York] to travel to Russia
to continue bolshevik revolution.




Online Sanguine

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Re: What If the Russian Revolution Had Never Happened?
« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2017, 07:35:28 AM »

After Wilson supported revolution against Russia's Tsar...
and "democratic" revolution continued to its bolshevik end,
token troops were sent to Russia at the request of US allies.
Meanwhile it had been Wilson who granted a US passport
for Trotsky [who was living in New York] to travel to Russia
to continue bolshevik revolution.

We agree in that Wilson was a bad guy.
Now is the time to "hold his feet to the fire".

There are no safe spaces in real life.   - LMAO

Walk in Wisdom
See then that you walk circumspectly, not as fools but as wise, redeeming the time, because the days are evil.

But the noble make noble plans, and by noble deeds they stand.

Online Bigun

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Re: What If the Russian Revolution Had Never Happened?
« Reply #16 on: November 14, 2017, 09:11:14 AM »
We agree in that Wilson was a bad guy.

The second worst president in the history of this country! The top spot being held by the man who has a HUGE monument named after him in Washington!

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: What If the Russian Revolution Had Never Happened?
« Reply #17 on: November 14, 2017, 06:20:19 PM »
Wouldn't we all now be speaking German?
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Offline KingsX

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Re: What If the Russian Revolution Had Never Happened?
« Reply #18 on: November 14, 2017, 10:48:43 PM »

Wouldn't we all now be speaking German?




Plenty of Germans settled in Russia during Tsarist times.

Ironically, Empress Catherine [who was German] invited Germans to settle in the area which became Stalingrad
[Stalin forcibly moved them... God knows where.]

Tsars liked to marry German princesses... making the last Tsar, Nicholas II, Germanic. Ironically he also married a German princess, Queen Victoria's granddaughter, Alexandra.

The three cousins who ruled Europe before WW1, King George V of England, Kaiser Wilhelm II of Germany and Tsar Nicholas II of Russia were all Germanic as were most of the royal families of Europe.




« Last Edit: November 14, 2017, 10:52:21 PM by KingsX »

Online Frank Cannon

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Re: What If the Russian Revolution Had Never Happened?
« Reply #19 on: November 14, 2017, 10:55:51 PM »
The second worst president in the history of this country! The top spot being held by the man who has a HUGE monument named after him in Washington!


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Online Bigun

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Re: What If the Russian Revolution Had Never Happened?
« Reply #20 on: November 14, 2017, 10:58:17 PM »


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