Author Topic: Conservative groups demand McConnell step down as Senate GOP leader  (Read 3157 times)

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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Conservative groups demand McConnell step down as Senate GOP leader
« Reply #50 on: October 12, 2017, 07:52:36 pm »
No, the bill that would have converted the ACA into something consistent with conservative notions of Constitutional federalism, and let the states innovate and decide how to design an insurance market that works for their citizens. 

The "root and branch" repeal you demand is a fantasy.  There is no majority for it, because the reality is that millions benefit from ObamaCare.  Incremental change - in a conservative direction - is better than no change at all.   You may not like it, but reality bites.
If the Federal Government is deciding who gets what money to dole out at another level, that is two layers of bureaucracy. That is one more than there was. How about we keep our money get the government out of the exam room, and spend it on health CARE ourselves, without all the middlemen?
Repeal the ACA.
The current crop of people in the GOP in Congress sold that fantasy. If they had no intent to deliver, they are guilty of fraud. They should lose their jobs and be replaced with people who won't lie to us.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline TomSea

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Re: Conservative groups demand McConnell step down as Senate GOP leader
« Reply #51 on: October 12, 2017, 07:57:27 pm »
Just for whenever we hear folks saying they are leaving the party, the inability to get things done really comes down to the Senate.

States where the GOP run the legislature and governorship; are really doing rather splendidly, Wisconsin, Texas, Florida and actually, even Ohio. Ohio was a mess 5 or 6 years ago, a real diaspora because they were flocking to places where there were jobs. Kasich gets on a lot of people's bad lists but economically, he and the legislature really turned that state around. 

Yes, and Trump has affected some positive changes with the limitations of the executive branch, rolling back the LGBT agenda, jobs and so on.

There there are those who want to leave the party, okay, don't let the door hit you on the way out.    9999hair out0000  I'll be proud of voting for the GOP nominee as usual; and if he does well on these things, I hope one can mention it.

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Conservative groups demand McConnell step down as Senate GOP leader
« Reply #52 on: October 12, 2017, 08:08:26 pm »
Just for whenever we hear folks saying they are leaving the party, the inability to get things done really comes down to the Senate.

States where the GOP run the legislature and governorship; are really doing rather splendidly, Wisconsin, Texas, Florida and actually, even Ohio. Ohio was a mess 5 or 6 years ago, a real diaspora because they were flocking to places where there were jobs. Kasich gets on a lot of people's bad lists but economically, he and the legislature really turned that state around. 

Yes, and Trump has affected some positive changes with the limitations of the executive branch, rolling back the LGBT agenda, jobs and so on.

There there are those who want to leave the party, okay, don't let the door hit you on the way out.    9999hair out0000  I'll be proud of voting for the GOP nominee as usual; and if he does well on these things, I hope one can mention it.

Kudos, TomSea, for a sensible, pragmatic post that represents mature thinking.   A refreshing change from the childish nose-cutting of some folks here.   

You're right - the current gridlock really does come down to the Senate.  At the state level, conservatives have been gaining in influence and accomplishments.   As has been pointed out,  2018 represents a golden opportunity to increase our Senate majority,  perhaps even to grow it to make the minority filibuster irrelevant.  But that takes a commitment to solidarity among moderates and conservatives,  to vote for the GOP nominee, and not to quit the party in a self-destructive pout-fest. 
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Conservative groups demand McConnell step down as Senate GOP leader
« Reply #53 on: October 12, 2017, 08:11:15 pm »
Just for whenever we hear folks saying they are leaving the party, the inability to get things done really comes down to the Senate.

States where the GOP run the legislature and governorship; are really doing rather splendidly, Wisconsin, Texas, Florida and actually, even Ohio. Ohio was a mess 5 or 6 years ago, a real diaspora because they were flocking to places where there were jobs. Kasich gets on a lot of people's bad lists but economically, he and the legislature really turned that state around. 

Yes, and Trump has affected some positive changes with the limitations of the executive branch, rolling back the LGBT agenda, jobs and so on.

There there are those who want to leave the party, okay, don't let the door hit you on the way out.    9999hair out0000  I'll be proud of voting for the GOP nominee as usual; and if he does well on these things, I hope one can mention it.
Maybe. For quite a while the GOP here did well. Under Ed Shaffer, the government cut back across the board during the decline in the late '70s/early 80s oil boom, and got the State in the black. Spending increased afterwards, with the State staying in the black and amassing a surplus in funds set aside from oil revenues.
Then during the last oil boom, the GOP dominated State Government went on a spending spree that would have given a drunken sailor a bad name, and established ongoing programs that are not so well funded with the decline in oil prices. It wasn't as if the pattern of boom and bust were not already established (the Bakken Boom was the fourth oil boom in the State). So, the drift toward 'moderate' policy has been evident in the Democrat like spending of the GOP here at the State level, too.
Keep in mind there was no primary for POTUS in ND last go-round, and the State GOP has pulled some crap at the State conventions as well. (Like calling for objections and killing power to the microphones when someone stepped up, then saying "Hearing none..." and proceeding to railroad the proceedings.)

Taxation without representation doesn't cut it by me, I don't give a damn who does it.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline truth_seeker

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Re: Conservative groups demand McConnell step down as Senate GOP leader
« Reply #54 on: October 12, 2017, 08:16:24 pm »
He can't sign it if the Congress doesn't put it on his desk.
Trump is NOT the problem, contrary to popular belief here.

The problem is fewer than one half dozen Senators.

Apparently neither Trump or McConnell (or other associated players) can sway them.

I am pleased to see President Trump using his administrative options, to do what can be done.
"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Conservative groups demand McConnell step down as Senate GOP leader
« Reply #55 on: October 12, 2017, 08:21:51 pm »
Trump is NOT the problem, contrary to popular belief here.

The problem is fewer than one half dozen Senators.

Apparently neither Trump or McConnell (or other associated players) can sway them.

I am pleased to see President Trump using his administrative options, to do what can be done.
I see the following: McCain, Collins, Murkowski, and Graham as being the primary ones who jump across the aisle. McConnell isn't in any rush to push them back, from what I have seen, and has not pushed for sufficiently conservative legislation to take in the conservatives. It's poor leadership on his part.

There were promises made, and the American people expect them to be fulfilled. Failure will have consequences.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline InHeavenThereIsNoBeer

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Re: Conservative groups demand McConnell step down as Senate GOP leader
« Reply #56 on: October 12, 2017, 08:22:08 pm »

And if it doesn't go well, you and I know it's time to move to the 100 acres in the woods and build a cabin. We are $20T in debt and cannot afford to raise interest rates. China is soon going to be tying the yuan to oil and gold both, putting pressure on both the dollar and interest rates. We are in a rock and a hard place and I think have no more than 5 years to figure it out, if it's not too late already.

I've long believed that the dollar's reserve and de facto world currency status was a curse, not a blessing.  Unfortunately, no one will notice until the music stops.
My avatar shows the national debt in stacks of $100 bills.  If you look very closely under the crane you can see the Statue of Liberty.

Offline Fishrrman

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Re: Conservative groups demand McConnell step down as Senate GOP leader
« Reply #57 on: October 13, 2017, 01:54:14 am »
Smokin' Joe wrote:
"While we may not agree on the source of the situation, I agree the filibuster should not be discarded. If the GOP keeps up its perfidy the Conservatives left in Congress will need the filibuster to have any impact at all."

Nope.

The Constitution specifies those few instances in which a supermajority is required (rather than 50% + 1).
The filibuster rule in the Senate IS NOT one of them.

It's not only a violation of the spirit of the Constitution -- majority rule under the rule of law -- but of the letter of that document, as well.

GET RID OF IT.
I can live with the consequences.

IF the Pubbies end the filibuster rule, they will survive to control the Senate for another decade, at least.
IF they refuse to do it, they may not survive past 2020...

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Conservative groups demand McConnell step down as Senate GOP leader
« Reply #58 on: October 13, 2017, 02:22:37 am »
Smokin' Joe wrote:
"While we may not agree on the source of the situation, I agree the filibuster should not be discarded. If the GOP keeps up its perfidy the Conservatives left in Congress will need the filibuster to have any impact at all."

Nope.

The Constitution specifies those few instances in which a supermajority is required (rather than 50% + 1).
The filibuster rule in the Senate IS NOT one of them.

It's not only a violation of the spirit of the Constitution -- majority rule under the rule of law -- but of the letter of that document, as well.

GET RID OF IT.
I can live with the consequences.

IF the Pubbies end the filibuster rule, they will survive to control the Senate for another decade, at least.
IF they refuse to do it, they may not survive past 2020...
The filibuster was created in 1806, the 1917 and subsequent cloture rules are what you want to get rid of, requiring a 60 vote, or even 2/3 majority to invoke cloture and limit debate.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filibuster_in_the_United_States_Senate#The_two-track_system.2C_60-vote_rule.2C_and_rise_of_the_routine_filibuster_.281970_onward.29

A word of caution, the Republicans do not have the majority vote they can count on, with the aisle jumpers like McCain and Collins (and Graham and Murkowski). just to name four frequent fliers, there. Eliminating the rule may work against the GOP, too.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline InHeavenThereIsNoBeer

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Re: Conservative groups demand McConnell step down as Senate GOP leader
« Reply #59 on: October 13, 2017, 03:02:28 am »
Smokin' Joe wrote:
"While we may not agree on the source of the situation, I agree the filibuster should not be discarded. If the GOP keeps up its perfidy the Conservatives left in Congress will need the filibuster to have any impact at all."

Nope.

The Constitution specifies those few instances in which a supermajority is required (rather than 50% + 1).
The filibuster rule in the Senate IS NOT one of them.

It's not only a violation of the spirit of the Constitution -- majority rule under the rule of law -- but of the letter of that document, as well.

GET RID OF IT.
I can live with the consequences.

IF the Pubbies end the filibuster rule, they will survive to control the Senate for another decade, at least.
IF they refuse to do it, they may not survive past 2020...

"Each House may determine the Rules of its Proceedings"

Not just within the spirit, but the letter as well.
My avatar shows the national debt in stacks of $100 bills.  If you look very closely under the crane you can see the Statue of Liberty.

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Conservative groups demand McConnell step down as Senate GOP leader
« Reply #60 on: October 13, 2017, 12:08:08 pm »
Smokin' Joe wrote:
"While we may not agree on the source of the situation, I agree the filibuster should not be discarded. If the GOP keeps up its perfidy the Conservatives left in Congress will need the filibuster to have any impact at all."

Nope.

The Constitution specifies those few instances in which a supermajority is required (rather than 50% + 1).
The filibuster rule in the Senate IS NOT one of them.

It's not only a violation of the spirit of the Constitution -- majority rule under the rule of law -- but of the letter of that document, as well.

GET RID OF IT.
I can live with the consequences.

IF the Pubbies end the filibuster rule, they will survive to control the Senate for another decade, at least.
IF they refuse to do it, they may not survive past 2020...

I understand the calculation you're making, but is it realistic, given Bannon's hysterics about primarying GOP Senate incumbants across the board with Breitbart extremists?   I think Bannon and his divisive ilk are imperiling the Senate majority, and for that reason I'm reluctant to end the filibuster, given that we may soon be needing it.   If we had solidarity then, yeah, sure, junk the thing and let's get to work.   But solidarity is a dirty word among Republicans these days - it's faction against faction.

This gets back to the thread topic -  conservatives demanding the ouster of FELLOW REPUBLICANS they deem too "moderate".   I think we need to face squarely what's at stake in 2018.   We are on the precipice of an historic conservative victory, a true transformation of the federal judiciary.   It's not just Gorsuch, who many conservatives consider Trump's greatest triumph.   Trump has nominated 60 brilliant conservative minds,  Constitutional textualists all, to the federal bench.  He has another 160 vacancies to fill.  And the Dems, back in 2013, foolishly ended the filibuster for judicial nominees - foolish because something happened that in their arrogance and hubris they never expected - a Republican took back the White House. 

Trump hasn't made judicial appointments like Bush did.  Bush tended to nominate safe choices, choices with little baggage who could survive the threat of a Democratic veto in the Senate.   Trump has been freed by the end of the judicial filibuster to appoint true conservatives,  conservatives that can be confirmed and shape the course of jurisprudence for the next 40 years.   And right by his side, btw, in getting these conservative minds confirmed and on the bench, is Mitch McConnell.  Let's not forget how important McConnell is to this project.   This has the potential to be Trump's and McConnell's greatest legacy to the cause of conservatism.

It's a wonderful thing to contemplate - if we don't blow it and lose the Senate.  But it's a cautionary tale as well - the Dems sure as hell didn't think they'd be in this pickle when they ended the judicial filibuster.  They thought they'd be in charge forever, just as you do, Smokin' Joe.   They thought they could blow off the minority and stack the courts with judicial progressives.  Now the shoe's on the other foot, and the opportunity is ours.

That is - if we don't self-destruct, if we don't overreach, if we don't fall victim to the same hubris.     
« Last Edit: October 13, 2017, 12:17:56 pm by Jazzhead »
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Offline libertybele

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Re: Conservative groups demand McConnell step down as Senate GOP leader
« Reply #61 on: October 13, 2017, 01:09:38 pm »
I see the following: McCain, Collins, Murkowski, and Graham as being the primary ones who jump across the aisle. McConnell isn't in any rush to push them back, from what I have seen, and has not pushed for sufficiently conservative legislation to take in the conservatives. It's poor leadership on his part.

There were promises made, and the American people expect them to be fulfilled. Failure will have consequences.

McConnell is leader of the swamp.  His corruption has been on full display for quite awhile with the latest being his unwillingness to confirm nominees to the bench.  There are 100 vacancies on the federal bench and 50 nominees awaiting action in the Senate and the number of federal court vacancies has risen to 149.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2017/10/mitch_mcconnell_gets_blamed_for_judicial_bottlenecking.html
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Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly, do not claim to be wiser than you are.  Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all.  If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all…do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Conservative groups demand McConnell step down as Senate GOP leader
« Reply #62 on: October 13, 2017, 01:15:30 pm »
McConnell is leader of the swamp.  His corruption has been on full display for quite awhile with the latest being his unwillingness to confirm nominees to the bench.  There are 100 vacancies on the federal bench and 50 nominees awaiting action in the Senate and the number of federal court vacancies has risen to 149.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2017/10/mitch_mcconnell_gets_blamed_for_judicial_bottlenecking.html
It should be apparent, even to the most ardent fans of the President, that McConnell has been a serious impediment to achieving Conservative goals in the Senate for some time, and has even been called a "Liar" on the Senate floor over it. While there is a power play going on, it could have some seriously good results if things go right.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

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Re: Conservative groups demand McConnell step down as Senate GOP leader
« Reply #63 on: October 13, 2017, 01:32:08 pm »
It should be apparent, even to the most ardent fans of the President, that McConnell has been a serious impediment to achieving Conservative goals in the Senate for some time, and has even been called a "Liar" on the Senate floor over it. While there is a power play going on, it could have some seriously good results if things go right.

You would have to be both blind and deaf not to recognize it!
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Conservative groups demand McConnell step down as Senate GOP leader
« Reply #64 on: October 13, 2017, 01:39:02 pm »
McConnell is leader of the swamp.  His corruption has been on full display for quite awhile with the latest being his unwillingness to confirm nominees to the bench.  There are 100 vacancies on the federal bench and 50 nominees awaiting action in the Senate and the number of federal court vacancies has risen to 149.


That's bullshit.   McConnell has been working hard with Trump and White House Counsel Dan McGahn to get the President's nominees confirmed.  He's kept the GOP coalition unified on judges, and in the words of Kimberly Stassel of the WSJ, has "a steely passion for remaking the judiciary"  that past majority leaders like Trent Lott and Bill Frist have lacked.  Her column in this morning's WSJ - "Scalias All the Way Down" is a must read on the progress that's being made to protect the Constitution under current Senate leadership.   
« Last Edit: October 13, 2017, 01:43:45 pm by Jazzhead »
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Offline libertybele

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Re: Conservative groups demand McConnell step down as Senate GOP leader
« Reply #65 on: October 13, 2017, 01:52:15 pm »
That's bullshit.   McConnell has been working hard with Trump and White House Counsel Dan McGahn to get the President's nominees confirmed.  He's kept the GOP coalition unified on judges, and in the words of Kimberly Stassel of the WSJ, has "a steely passion for remaking the judiciary"  that past majority leaders like Trent Lott and Bill Frist have lacked.  Her column in this morning's WSJ - "Scalias All the Way Down" is a must read on the progress that's being made to protect the Constitution under current Senate leadership.

So ... are you disputing the fact that there are hundreds of open seats to the bench or are you disputing that fact that McConnell is a very poor leader or are you disputing the fact that he's a RINO?
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Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly, do not claim to be wiser than you are.  Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all.  If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all…do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Offline aligncare

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Re: Conservative groups demand McConnell step down as Senate GOP leader
« Reply #66 on: October 13, 2017, 02:05:21 pm »
Tell me again why the "moderates", as you call them, aren't more responsible for the current paralysis as the "extremists", as you call them?

Trump is the de facto party leader and with one or two exceptions it always seems to be the "moderates" obstructing him. Yet they never seem to be the target of your criticism.

Is that a tacit acknowledgment that Trump is pushing the country to the Right? If so, I agree. If not, never mind.

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: Conservative groups demand McConnell step down as Senate GOP leader
« Reply #67 on: October 13, 2017, 03:07:31 pm »
Here it is again. It’s all the noisy “extremists” fault, refusing to cooperate with the poor well intentioned moderates.
Those 'moderates' are nothing more than liberal, as they possess the same meme.
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Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: Conservative groups demand McConnell step down as Senate GOP leader
« Reply #68 on: October 13, 2017, 03:09:11 pm »
That's right!  So why are so many folks clamoring to primary incumbents with Brietbart extremists?
Yep, lifted right out of the playbook for liberals.  Extremist?  That's what you and Pelosi call conservatives now?
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Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: Conservative groups demand McConnell step down as Senate GOP leader
« Reply #69 on: October 13, 2017, 03:11:50 pm »
I won't abandon the ship.  You will.
I believe you.  The liberal ship you are on will stay true to its word.
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: Conservative groups demand McConnell step down as Senate GOP leader
« Reply #70 on: October 13, 2017, 03:14:22 pm »
No, the bill that would have converted the ACA into something consistent with conservative notions of Constitutional federalism, and let the states innovate and decide how to design an insurance market that works for their citizens. 

The "root and branch" repeal you demand is a fantasy.  There is no majority for it, because the reality is that millions benefit from ObamaCare. Incremental change - in a conservative direction - is better than no change at all.   You may not like it, but reality bites.
If there was so much so called benefit from it, why did the Congress exempt itself?
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Conservative groups demand McConnell step down as Senate GOP leader
« Reply #71 on: October 13, 2017, 03:24:42 pm »
So ... are you disputing the fact that there are hundreds of open seats to the bench or are you disputing that fact that McConnell is a very poor leader or are you disputing the fact that he's a RINO?

IMO, McConnell is a main street conservative and an effective leader,  albeit one who is mindful of Senate traditions and the reasons why protection of minority rights has, historically, been of great benefit to Republicans.  He is working effectively with Trump's folks in getting his judicial nominees confirmed.  The constant beat-down he suffers at the hands of the Breitbart extremists (yes, I'm sticking to that characterization, I am no fan of Steve Bannon and his cynical hatemongering) is, IMO, a travesty.   
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Conservative groups demand McConnell step down as Senate GOP leader
« Reply #72 on: October 13, 2017, 03:27:18 pm »
Yep, lifted right out of the playbook for liberals.  Extremist?  That's what you and Pelosi call conservatives now?

I am no liberal, sir.  But I am no social conservative or alt-right racist either.   I come from the conservative tradition of Barry Goldwater, Bill Buckley and Ronald Reagan.  Heard of them?    If that makes me a liberal, then kiss my ass.
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Re: Conservative groups demand McConnell step down as Senate GOP leader
« Reply #73 on: October 13, 2017, 07:40:41 pm »
I am no liberal, sir.  But I am no social conservative or alt-right racist either.   I come from the conservative tradition of Barry Goldwater, Bill Buckley and Ronald Reagan.  Heard of them?    If that makes me a liberal, then kiss my ass.

You say you are "no social conservative," then call yourself in the tradition of Ronald Reagan.  Got it.   *****rollingeyes*****
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Conservative groups demand McConnell step down as Senate GOP leader
« Reply #74 on: October 13, 2017, 08:49:13 pm »
You say you are "no social conservative," then call yourself in the tradition of Ronald Reagan.  Got it.   *****rollingeyes*****

Absolutely correct, sir.

 Reagan wanted to reduce the leviathan state.  Social conservatives don't prioritize such things - indeed, they insist that the state enforce their peculiar morality as government policy.   (To be fair, most conservatives combine aspects of the several conservative traditions (economic conservatism, liberty conservatism, social conservatism, etc.)  Reagan certainly did.  But you cannot claim Reagan as solely a "social conservative".  He was far more supportive of individual liberty and limited government to be pigeonholed that way.)     
It's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide