Factories attack Perry's plan for power grid

[thackney]

Factories attack Perry's plan for power grid
http://www.chron.com/business/energy/article/Factories-attack-Perry-s-plan-for-power-grid-12267112.php
October 10, 2017

Add the nation's factories and industrial plants to the list of groups fighting Energy Secretary Rick Perry's plan to save the coal and nuclear power industries.

The trade group Industrial Energy Consumers of America wrote to members of Congress Tuesday, asking they tell Perry to withdraw his proposal requesting power market regulations be adjusted to raise prices for coal and nuclear power.

"Though we remain supportive of both coal and nuclear, we are opposed to providing subsidies that would damage competitive markets," the IECA said. "The proposal is anti-competitive and if implemented, it would distort, if not destroy, competitive wholesale electricity markets, increase the price of electricity to all consumers, and directly negatively impact the competitiveness of U.S. manufacturing."

Perry announced his proposal last month as a means to protect the stability of the U.S. power grid, which he said was under threat as coal and nuclear plants close down amidst a glut of cheap natural gas and increased competition from wind and solar energy....

[thackney]

EPA Chief Calls for Ending Wind Tax Credits to Help Coal Survive
http://www.chron.com/business/energy/article/EPA-Chief-Calls-for-Ending-Wind-Tax-Credits-to-12266114.php
October 9, 2017

Tax incentives for the wind industry should be eliminated, Environmental Protection Agency administrator Scott Pruitt said Monday.

“I would do away with these incentives that we give to the wind industry,” Pruitt said, responding to a question about the effectiveness of renewable energy at an event held at the Kentucky Farm Bureau on Monday. “I’d let them stand on their own and compete against coal and natural gas and other sources."

In a video of the appearance on the farm bureau’s Facebook page, Pruitt said those energy sources should compete in the market "as opposed to being propped up by tax incentives and other types of credits that occur, both in the federal level and state level.”

Congress voted to extend tax credits for both the wind and solar industries in 2015 as part of a broad deal that also ended ban on crude oil exports. Under the deal, the wind industry’s 2.3-cent-per-kilowatt hour tax credit would begins phasing down this year before expiring in 2020. The solar industry’s 30 percent tax credit winds down and expires in 2022....

[Bigun]

EPA Chief Calls for Ending Wind Tax Credits to Help Coal Survive
http://www.chron.com/business/energy/article/EPA-Chief-Calls-for-Ending-Wind-Tax-Credits-to-12266114.php
October 9, 2017

Tax incentives for the wind industry should be eliminated, Environmental Protection Agency administrator Scott Pruitt said Monday.

“I would do away with these incentives that we give to the wind industry,” Pruitt said, responding to a question about the effectiveness of renewable energy at an event held at the Kentucky Farm Bureau on Monday. “I’d let them stand on their own and compete against coal and natural gas and other sources."

In a video of the appearance on the farm bureau’s Facebook page, Pruitt said those energy sources should compete in the market "as opposed to being propped up by tax incentives and other types of credits that occur, both in the federal level and state level.”

Congress voted to extend tax credits for both the wind and solar industries in 2015 as part of a broad deal that also ended ban on crude oil exports. Under the deal, the wind industry’s 2.3-cent-per-kilowatt hour tax credit would begins phasing down this year before expiring in 2020. The solar industry’s 30 percent tax credit winds down and expires in 2022....

Ending them yesterday would have been too late IMHO!  And the Ethanol mandates and subsidies need to be history as well!

[IsailedawayfromFR]

Factories attack Perry's plan for power grid
http://www.chron.com/business/energy/article/Factories-attack-Perry-s-plan-for-power-grid-12267112.php
October 10, 2017
Add the nation's factories and industrial plants to the list of groups fighting Energy Secretary Rick Perry's plan to save the coal and nuclear power industries.

The trade group Industrial Energy Consumers of America wrote to members of Congress Tuesday, asking they tell Perry to withdraw his proposal requesting power market regulations be adjusted to raise prices for coal and nuclear power.

"Though we remain supportive of both coal and nuclear, we are opposed to providing subsidies that would damage competitive markets," the IECA said. "The proposal is anti-competitive and if implemented, it would distort, if not destroy, competitive wholesale electricity markets, increase the price of electricity to all consumers, and directly negatively impact the competitiveness of U.S. manufacturing."

Perry announced his proposal last month as a means to protect the stability of the U.S. power grid, which he said was under threat as coal and nuclear plants close down amidst a glut of cheap natural gas and increased competition from wind and solar energy....

I guess I am having difficulty in understanding exactly what's going on here.

He isn't really raising prices of coal and nuclear power it seems by removing regulations.  Instead, he appears to be loosening the favoritism of renewables to supply power, meaning coal and nuclear will be able to better compete, so their prices will rise.

Is that correct @thackney?  If so, how does the factory group lose out as power supplied to them should be cheaper.  Could it be they purchased some type of renewable credits that now will be worthless?

The direction seems to be let the market decide but am unsure.

[thackney]

I guess I am having difficulty in understanding exactly what's going on here.

He isn't really raising prices of coal and nuclear power it seems by removing regualtions.  Instead, he appears to be loosening the favoritism of renewables to supply power, meaning coal and nuclear will be able to better compete, so their prices will rise.

Is that correct @thackney?  If so, how does the factory group lose out as power supplied to them should be cheaper.  Could it be they purchased some type of renewable credits that now will be worthless?

The direction seems to be let the market decide but am unsure.

It don't see it as letting the market decide.  The Solar and Wind are subsidized in multiple ways.  One of them was treating non-dispatchable load, meaning you get solar and wind when you get it, not necessarily when you want or need it, and forcing it priced as if it was controlled.

In a true free market, that non-dispatchable load would be bought at a discount to something you can depend upon.

He is trying to offset those subsidies, with additional subsidies, adding to the price paid for base load units like coal and nuclear that essentially run most economically when run all the time near max load.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

It don't see it as letting the market decide.  The Solar and Wind are subsidized in multiple ways.  One of them was treating non-dispatchable load, meaning you get solar and wind when you get it, not necessarily when you want or need it, and forcing it priced as if it was controlled.

In a true free market, that non-dispatchable load would be bought at a discount to something you can depend upon.

He is trying to offset those subsidies, with additional subsidies, adding to the price paid for base load units like coal and nuclear that essentially run most economically when run all the time near max load.

Thx, seems the easiest way to play the game is just to end subsidies, but I guess Congress wants to do that gradually.

Will in fact the cost of coal and nuclear derived power actually increase as the factory group contends?

[Free Vulcan]

It don't see it as letting the market decide.  The Solar and Wind are subsidized in multiple ways.  One of them was treating non-dispatchable load, meaning you get solar and wind when you get it, not necessarily when you want or need it, and forcing it priced as if it was controlled.

In a true free market, that non-dispatchable load would be bought at a discount to something you can depend upon.

He is trying to offset those subsidies, with additional subsidies, adding to the price paid for base load units like coal and nuclear that essentially run most economically when run all the time near max load.

Seems it would be easier to just eliminate all subsidies and let the chips fall.

[Bigun]

Seems it would be easier to just eliminate all subsidies and let the chips fall.

B I N G O ! ! !

[Joe Wooten]

It don't see it as letting the market decide.  The Solar and Wind are subsidized in multiple ways.  One of them was treating non-dispatchable load, meaning you get solar and wind when you get it, not necessarily when you want or need it, and forcing it priced as if it was controlled.

In a true free market, that non-dispatchable load would be bought at a discount to something you can depend upon.

He is trying to offset those subsidies, with additional subsidies, adding to the price paid for base load units like coal and nuclear that essentially run most economically when run all the time near max load.

Which is exactly the WRONG approach. Eliminate all subsidies and let the market decide.

[Smokin Joe]

Thx, seems the easiest way to play the game is just to end subsidies, but I guess Congress wants to do that gradually.

Will in fact the cost of coal and nuclear derived power actually increase as the factory group contends?

If they eliminate subsidies, where are the kickbacks going to come from? So give everyone subsidies and then there are MORE kickbacks!!

[Joe Wooten]

If they eliminate subsidies, where are the kickbacks going to come from? So give everyone subsidies and then there are MORE kickbacks!!

Exactly. You hit it out of the park.

[Bigun]

Exactly. You hit it out of the park.

So sad that we continue to be willing to put up with such from our public "servants".

[DB]

There was a time when industry competed and came up with the most economical way to generate power and distribute it.

It wasn't determined by government.

Most companies reward you when you use more of their product giving you a discount. Not the electrical generation industry. The more you use the more you pay per unit of energy.

The whole scheme is nuts - yet we accept it and think it is "normal"...

[Bigun]

There was a time when industry competed and came up with the most economical way to generate power and distribute it.

It wasn't determined by government.

Most companies reward you when you use more of their product giving you a discount. Not the electrical generation industry. The more you use the more you pay per unit of energy.

The whole scheme is nuts - yet we accept it and think it is "normal"...

 

[thackney]

The more you use the more you pay per unit of energy.

Where do you see that?  I've always seen the opposite.  And big discounts for really big users like industry.

[DB]

Where do you see that?  I've always seen the opposite.  And big discounts for really big users like industry.

My house. California has multiple tiers, the more you use the more you pay. I pay $0.40 a kwh for the bulk of my electricity. Small business pays through the nose too.

[thackney]

My house. California has multiple tiers, the more you use the more you pay. I pay $0.40 a kwh for the bulk of my electricity. Small business pays through the nose too.

Wow, that is terrible.  I've worked in the Electric Utility Industry in 3 states and lived/worked Electrical Power in several others.  I've never even heard of such.  Always seen rates cheaper for more total power.  And the bigger the user, the bigger the discount.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

Wow, that is terrible.  I've worked in the Electric Utility Industry in 3 states and lived/worked Electrical Power in several others.  I've never even heard of such.  Always seen rates cheaper for more total power.  And the bigger the user, the bigger the discount.

Seems a natural result of a state that believes conservation is the goal, not a good lifestyle, as it seeks to return the earth to its 'pristine condition' and eliminate the footprint of man.

[Smokin Joe]

Seems a natural result of a state that believes conservation is the goal, not a good lifestyle, as it seeks to return the earth to its 'pristine condition' and eliminate the footprint of man.

Not much of a State if there isn't anyone home...

[DB]

Wow, that is terrible.  I've worked in the Electric Utility Industry in 3 states and lived/worked Electrical Power in several others.  I've never even heard of such.  Always seen rates cheaper for more total power.  And the bigger the user, the bigger the discount.

Here's the current PG&E residential tier rates:
https://www.pge.com/en_US/residential/rate-plans/rate-plan-options/tiered-base-plan/tiered-base-plan.page

It typically takes me less than a week to end up in the maximum tier each month... There are 6 adults (2 are elderly) that live in my home currently and I work at home. There is no adjustment made based on the number of people living in the home. I've come to hate this state from all the taxes, fees, costs and regulation. Liberals have destroyed it and I've been here for 48 years and it is getting worse daily now.

[thackney]

Here's the current PG&E residential tier rates:
https://www.pge.com/en_US/residential/rate-plans/rate-plan-options/tiered-base-plan/tiered-base-plan.page

What determines the baseline?

[thackney]

Here's the current PG&E residential tier rates:
https://www.pge.com/en_US/residential/rate-plans/rate-plan-options/tiered-base-plan/tiered-base-plan.page

It typically takes me less than a week to end up in the maximum tier each month... There are 6 adults (2 are elderly) that live in my home currently and I work at home. There is no adjustment made based on the number of people living in the home. I've come to hate this state from all the taxes, fees, costs and regulation. Liberals have destroyed it and I've been here for 48 years and it is getting worse daily now.

Typical in my area:
Average Price per kWh
500 kWh = 11.0¢
1,000 kWh = 10.2¢
 2,000 kWh =  9.7¢
https://refer.directenergy.com/ImageServer/Documents/DocumentName?type=EFL&name=FDCRXXT0398_ENG_20171003.PDF

[DB]

What determines the baseline?

Baseline is determined by the general climate (location) where you live. If by the coast it is lower, if in the middle of the desert it is more. The high costs are apparently to force you to go to solar and to pay for all the subsidies for solar/alternative sources.

My heating and cooking are natural gas.

[thackney]

My heating and cooking are natural gas.