Federal Court Ruling Guts Police Ability To Use Guns

[Smokin Joe]

Under the new doctrine of proportionality, cops are going to be prosecuted for pumping multiple rounds into the back of an unarmed perp running away from them.

I see holding the police to "proportional force" as a good thing.

How do you assess that, except by effect? Is a pipe or a stick a lethal weapon? Assuredly has that potential, as do fists and feet, a glass bottle (especially a molotov cocktail), a baseball bat. Fists and feet account for twice as many deaths as rifles, for instance. Would it be okay to shoot the guy with the rifle but not that hulking big sob who is amped up on PCP or flakka who wants to beat you to death?

[Elderberry]

How do you assess that, except by effect? Is a pipe or a stick a lethal weapon? Assuredly has that potential, as do fists and feet, a glass bottle (especially a molotov cocktail), a baseball bat. Fists and feet account for twice as many deaths as rifles, for instance. Would it be okay to shoot the guy with the rifle but not that hulking big sob who is amped up on PCP or flakka who wants to beat you to death?

To me, it means if you are being threatened with immediate bodily harm, shoot the SOB. If he's just a kid with a squirt gun, or he's being an bleep and pissed you off, or is running away, then its not proportional to blast him and then claim you were in fear of your life.

[RetBobbyMI]

Are you saying he should err on the side of personal safety and fire not knowing what's in his hand?

Exactly. Not many people will live if it turns out to be a loaded gun and wait to see if it is. That is the fallacy of all those arm chair critics. A cop has less than a tenth of a second to decide or potentially be killed.

[RetBobbyMI]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfi3Ndh3n-g
Police training video. What would you do?

[Smokin Joe]

To me, it means if you are being threatened with immediate bodily harm, shoot the SOB. If he's just a kid with a squirt gun, or he's being an bleep and pissed you off, or is running away, then its not proportional to blast him and then claim you were in fear of your life.

Ideally, the entry woulds should be in the front of the suspect, much the same standard for a non policeman who uses a firearm in personal defense. Some yayhoo doing spinning back kicks or such might be an exception. Shooting a fleeing suspect? no. Hostage situation, anything is fair, but if they haven't killed yet and aren't on the move, it may just be a cry for help. If there is any doubt, though, drop them.

The problem with the whole shoot to wound thing is that I have seen a guy so coked up (and, admittedly, in shock) he was walking on the stump, dragging his foot and ankle behind him. Suspects on PCP or Meth or Flakka or a host of other aggression producing drugs might not even go down from what would ordinarily be a debilitating wound. They will still present a lethal threat. Considering most gunfights happen inside 7 meters range, that isn't much distance for that perp to cover, even wounded.
So all the happy thoughts about shooting guns out of someone's hand or wounding them sort of go out the window for a guy who has to decide in less time than it takes to type "now".

[Elderberry]

Exactly. Not many people will live if it turns out to be a loaded gun and wait to see if it is. That is the fallacy of all those arm chair critics. A cop has less than a tenth of a second to decide or potentially be killed.

I guess I'm lucky to be alive then. I was pulled over in the winter. I had an army jacket on. It was cold and I kept putting my hands in my pockets. The cop would yell to get my  hands out of my pockets. I'd pull them out, get cold again and stick them back in my warm pockets. He'd yell at me again. I'd pull them out again. He was not amused when he frisked me and found 2 knives on me. He didn't shoot me. He never even drew his weapon. It didn't help that one of my passengers would break out laughing whenever the cop yelled at me. Especially when he was shaking my knives at me, saying "You were going to stick me with this, weren't you!"

[Oceander]

The bottom line fact is, cops are very poorly trained and are as often as not amped up on adrenaline, which can be just as bad as any other drug on ones judgment, and they are shooting, too often, too soon, and killing people who were simply not that much of a threat.

[Smokin Joe]

I guess I'm lucky to be alive then. I was pulled over in the winter. I had an army jacket on. It was cold and I kept putting my hands in my pockets. The cop would yell to get my  hands out of my pockets. I'd pull them out, get cold again and stick then back in my warm pockets. He'd yell at me again. I'd pull them out again. He was not amused when he frisked me and found 2 knives on me. He didn't shoot me. He never even drew his weapon. It didn't help that one of my passengers would break out laughing whenever the cop yelled at me. Especially when he was shaking my knives at me, saying "You were going to stick me with this, weren't you!"

Hands in the pockets, especially in winter, do definitely make them nervous, but it doesn't mean they will necessarily shoot you, nor should it. Here, in winter, exposed flesh can be damaged in as little as 30 seconds, depending on wind and temperature, and the police know this. It's removing the hands, body stance,  intervening distance, prior signs of aggression (aside from just being unhappy about being pulled over), all factor in. You didn't bring your hand out of your pocket with a knife in it did you?

Frankly, it isn't a job I'd want. for every time people are happy to see you, there are a bunch they are not. Especially with the crap around glorifying killing police.

[Smokin Joe]

The bottom line fact is, cops are very poorly trained and are as often as not amped up on adrenaline, which can be just as bad as any other drug on ones judgment, and they are shooting, too often, too soon, and killing people who were simply not that much of a threat.

Let me throw a " some" in front of cops, there. Sure they are amped up on adrenaline, depending on the behaviour of the person involved, whether they had to chase them, the area they make the stop and time of day/night, there are things which indicate some stops are going to be more of a problem than others. No two ways about it. Some do shoot too soon, or do not correctly assess the threat. My experience has been that the police here have generally conducted themselves professionally, with reasonable caution.

But then, I call them "officer", and have kidded with the youngsters in the family often enough about being on a first-name basis with all the police force (that being "Officer") and that they can be, too, if they just remember that. It sets a different tone than "M*****f****r!",  and chances are that whatever was an issue will be the only issue, solved calmly, no gunplay involved.
They are told to speak calmly, respectfully, and to refrain from profanity.

Hmm. Civil, nonthreatening behaviour works. Hoodathunkit?

[Elderberry]

I've never had any problems with the police. I've always called them Sir. Once I got pulled over by two policemen. I was talking to one officer and looked over and saw the other officer was beating the crap out of my passenger. Must of been something he said. Like I said, personally, I've never had any problems with the police.

[Smokin Joe]

I've never had any problems with the police. I've always called them Sir. Once I got pulled over by two policemen. I was talking to one officer and looked over and saw the other officer was beating the crap out of my passenger. Must of been something he said. Like I said, personally, I've never had any problems with the police.

Me, neither. A little common sense keeps it that way.