Author Topic: Russia claims to have invented an alternative to fracking  (Read 2160 times)

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Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Russia claims to have invented an alternative to fracking
« on: August 22, 2017, 05:27:03 pm »
Russia claims to have invented an alternative to fracking
Business Insider, Aug 20, 2017

Russian scientists and local oil field services companies claim to have created a technology for thermochemical gas fracturing that could be an alternative to hydraulic fracturing and could increase oil production by between 1.7 and 6 times, Russia’s news agency RIA Novosti reports, citing the University of Tyumen’s press service.

In hydraulic fracturing, rocks are fractured with high-pressure injection of fluids, while the new breakthrough technology, as claimed by Russian scientists and media, is creating chemical reactions in the strata that contain oil.

The chemicals react and emit heat and gas, which makes extraction easier and lifts well productivity, according to the scientists and researchers.

The other upside in the technology, the Russians claim, is that the main component in the chemical reactions is ammonium nitrate, which is often used as fertilizer.


More:  http://www.businessinsider.com/russia-claims-to-have-invented-an-alternative-to-fracking-2017-8

Offline The_Reader_David

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Re: Russia claims to have invented an alternative to fracking
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2017, 05:31:24 pm »
Wait... oil and ammonium nitrate... where have I heard of that mixture before?

Might the Russian procedure leave behind explosive rock strata? 

I think I'll stick with fracking (without waste-water reinjection, which seems to be the actual cause of the fracking-related earthquakes), and preferably in the version that uses super-cooled propane as the fracking fluid so there's no chance of ground-water contamination at all.
And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know what this was all about.

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: Russia claims to have invented an alternative to fracking
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2017, 01:53:32 am »
I think I'll stick with fracking (without waste-water reinjection, which seems to be the actual cause of the fracking-related earthquakes), and preferably in the version that uses super-cooled propane as the fracking fluid so there's no chance of ground-water contamination at all.
Am unsure what you are talking about - seems you are mixing unalike terms here.

First - hydraulic fracturing uses water.  That water is not all returned from the formation, although a lot of it is.  The part that is returned by producing the well is either treated and reused on a frac on another well or, as more typical,  reinjected into water disposal wells, just like the water from any other producer does.

As far as propane fraccing - whew - talk about something truly capable of an awe-inspiring explosion.  Do you know what pressures are usually used when a well is fracced? Somewhere upwards of 5,000 psi up to well over 10,000 psi at the surface.  If propane is used, it will be much higher as it has a lighter density and will be unable to sustain an emulsion to carry much proppant, hence it has to be injected at higher rates, and even corresponding higher surface pressures.

Would you care to be anywhere in the vicinity of a well being fracced with an explosive mixture of propane being pressured to 10,000 psi or more? 

Not me.

I read the file on a well fracced in South Texas in the 70s with propane near McAllen Ranch field.  The frac crew dug a ' trench 100 years away and operated the frac from there.  The trench was the way to escape the lethal fireball that would have passed overhead when things went south.  Not sure if it had worked if it had happened, which thankfully it did not.
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline The_Reader_David

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Re: Russia claims to have invented an alternative to fracking
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2017, 03:30:56 am »
There was a lot of online discussion two years back about propane fracking as a way of getting around New York state's fracking ban, and the environmental virtues of the procedure.  I think the test in the '70's must have gone well enough that people kept working on the technology.
And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know what this was all about.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: Russia claims to have invented an alternative to fracking
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2017, 03:39:10 am »
There was a lot of online discussion two years back about propane fracking as a way of getting around New York state's fracking ban, and the environmental virtues of the procedure.  I think the test in the '70's must have gone well enough that people kept working on the technology.
NO, it most decidedly did not encourage anybody.  It fracced the formation very poorly as it did not get the expected results due to the lack of ability for the proper fluid characteristics to convey proppant.

It is why I have never heard of another propane frac in the past +40 years.

Can you steer me toward that online discussion of two years ago?  Am curious about it.

There are myriads of reasons not to deploy propane as a carrying agent in a frac(chief among them is cost).  The one benefit I know of is the usage of a fluid which will not unfavorably alter the relative permeability characteristics of the formation.
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: Russia claims to have invented an alternative to fracking
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2017, 03:40:56 am »
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Russia claims to have invented an alternative to fracking
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2017, 03:41:45 am »
NO, it most decidedly did not encourage anybody.  It fracced the formation very poorly as it did not get the expected results due to the lack of ability for the proper fluid characteristics to convey proppant.

It is why I have never heard of another propane frac in the past +40 years.

Can you steer me toward that online discussion of two years ago?  Am curious about it.

There are myriads of reasons not to deploy propane as a carrying agent in a frac(chief among them is cost).  The one benefit I know of is the usage of a fluid which will not unfavorably alter the relative permeability characteristics of the formation.
Not to bust your bubble, but yes, it has been tried since then: http://calgaryherald.com/business/energy/private-company-buys-assets-of-failed-gasfrac-energy
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Smokin Joe

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How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: Russia claims to have invented an alternative to fracking
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2017, 12:32:11 pm »
Not to bust your bubble, but yes, it has been tried since then: http://calgaryherald.com/business/energy/private-company-buys-assets-of-failed-gasfrac-energy
Seems that article proved the point it is a failed process, as seen by the financial condition of the company and the 2011 fire which killed three people.

Using coil makes more sense.  It just doesn't cut the cake.
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: Russia claims to have invented an alternative to fracking
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2017, 12:34:17 pm »
http://www.businessinsider.com/russia-us-and-venezuela-oil-connection-2017-8
we'll see if this happens.  My bet is the feds will not allow it.  Political hot potato.
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline thackney

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Re: Russia claims to have invented an alternative to fracking
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2017, 01:17:00 pm »
Seems that article proved the point it is a failed process, as seen by the financial condition of the company and the 2011 fire which killed three people.

Using coil makes more sense.  It just doesn't cut the cake.

It is still being looked at:

NY DEC Calls Propane Fracking “Unique Technology”; Wants More Info
http://marcellusdrilling.com/2016/05/ny-dec-calls-propane-fracking-unique-technology-wants-more-info/
May 2016

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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Russia claims to have invented an alternative to fracking
« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2017, 01:18:32 pm »
Seems that article proved the point it is a failed process, as seen by the financial condition of the company and the 2011 fire which killed three people.

Using coil makes more sense.  It just doesn't cut the cake.
Just because the process using gelled propane didn't work once doesn't mean it can't be made to work. Other catastrophic failures over the years have only led to better techniques and equipment, not abandonment of concept. Had demand kept up and fracwater availability/flowback water disposal been a problem (as it is in some locations), I think the concept would have been proven and even competitive in places.

Grand failures don't necessarily halt progress, but market forces will.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JK6a6Hkp94o
« Last Edit: August 23, 2017, 01:19:14 pm by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: Russia claims to have invented an alternative to fracking
« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2017, 03:10:59 pm »
Just because the process using gelled propane didn't work once doesn't mean it can't be made to work. Other catastrophic failures over the years have only led to better techniques and equipment, not abandonment of concept. Had demand kept up and fracwater availability/flowback water disposal been a problem (as it is in some locations), I think the concept would have been proven and even competitive in places.

Grand failures don't necessarily halt progress, but market forces will.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JK6a6Hkp94o
I don't disagree, and from a reservoir engineer's perspective, I would love to see a fluid being used that will not alter relative permeability.

It is expensive as one must purchase the propane instead of using cheap water, it is very hazardous, its abilities to transport proppant are weak, and requires much higher pressures to inject.

It is like a chemical flood for tertiary recovery.  Looks great in the lab as it can capture up to 100% of OOIP, but cannot be commercial in the field after many, many failures, except for a few special exceptions.
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: Russia claims to have invented an alternative to fracking
« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2017, 03:13:13 pm »
Just because the process using gelled propane didn't work once doesn't mean it can't be made to work. Other catastrophic failures over the years have only led to better techniques and equipment, not abandonment of concept. Had demand kept up and fracwater availability/flowback water disposal been a problem (as it is in some locations), I think the concept would have been proven and even competitive in places.

Grand failures don't necessarily halt progress, but market forces will.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JK6a6Hkp94o
My memory tells me it was the Bloomberg field in Hidalgo County Texas.  What an appropriate name, a spectacular failure for both.
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: Russia claims to have invented an alternative to fracking
« Reply #15 on: August 23, 2017, 03:25:54 pm »
It is still being looked at:

NY DEC Calls Propane Fracking “Unique Technology”; Wants More Info
http://marcellusdrilling.com/2016/05/ny-dec-calls-propane-fracking-unique-technology-wants-more-info/
May 2016
I trust it doesn't result in the tragic loss of life as GasFrac did in 2011.

Since this is NY, this seems a desparate attempt by mineral owners and companies to realize value from their assets which otherwise is  unfairly deprived them by the state.
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Russia claims to have invented an alternative to fracking
« Reply #16 on: August 23, 2017, 03:42:02 pm »
I trust it doesn't result in the tragic loss of life as GasFrac did in 2011.

Since this is NY, this seems a desparate attempt by mineral owners and companies to realize value from their assets which otherwise is  unfairly deprived them by the state.
One of the chief objections in NY is that some of the area involved might feed into the watersheds which supply water to NYC. That water isn't extensively treated, iirc, and the concerns from some of the major landowners there were over contamination in the watershed. Those landowners are sufficiently wealthy to affect the politics of the State.
Unfortunately, as with most any one size fits all policy, those smaller landowners outside that watershed are adversely affected, even though there would be no effect on the NYC water supply.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: Russia claims to have invented an alternative to fracking
« Reply #17 on: August 23, 2017, 04:28:23 pm »
Russia claims to have invented an alternative to fracking
Business Insider, Aug 20, 2017

Russian scientists and local oil field services companies claim to have created a technology for thermochemical gas fracturing that could be an alternative to hydraulic fracturing and could increase oil production by between 1.7 and 6 times, Russia’s news agency RIA Novosti reports, citing the University of Tyumen’s press service.

In hydraulic fracturing, rocks are fractured with high-pressure injection of fluids, while the new breakthrough technology, as claimed by Russian scientists and media, is creating chemical reactions in the strata that contain oil.

The chemicals react and emit heat and gas, which makes extraction easier and lifts well productivity, according to the scientists and researchers.

The other upside in the technology, the Russians claim, is that the main component in the chemical reactions is ammonium nitrate, which is often used as fertilizer.


More:  http://www.businessinsider.com/russia-claims-to-have-invented-an-alternative-to-fracking-2017-8
another side-effect of using ammonium nitrate.

http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/fertilizer-explosion-kills-581-in-texas
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline thackney

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Re: Russia claims to have invented an alternative to fracking
« Reply #18 on: August 23, 2017, 04:38:22 pm »
Seems that article proved the point it is a failed process, as seen by the financial condition of the company and the 2011 fire which killed three people.

Using coil makes more sense.  It just doesn't cut the cake.

Do you have a link for the fire killing 3 people?  I only find info on the Jan 2011 fire that injured some but did not kill anyone.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/industry-news/energy-and-resources/husky-well-fire-injures-several-alberta-workers/article584094/
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Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: Russia claims to have invented an alternative to fracking
« Reply #19 on: August 23, 2017, 05:07:11 pm »
Do you have a link for the fire killing 3 people?  I only find info on the Jan 2011 fire that injured some but did not kill anyone.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/industry-news/energy-and-resources/husky-well-fire-injures-several-alberta-workers/article584094/
Nope, my bad, as it was just injuries.

Interestingly, I did find that even using propane GasFrac was able to contaminate groundwater, which I though was a chief reason it was utilizing propane.  I believe the mgt was just incompetent, so perhaps propane was not given a good enough shake.

Having incompetency in the fraccing business is a sure way to stop fraccing, so good riddance to their departure.

Hydraulic fracturing with gelled propane by Gasfrac/Crew Energy Inc./Caltex Energy Inc. contaminated groundwater near Grande Prairie: ERCB Investigative Report and groundwater monitoring by Alberta Environment

http://www.ernstversusencana.ca/gelledpropane-gel-gasfrac-crew-caltrex-hydraulic-fracturing-fluid-contaminated-groundwater-near-grande-prairie-ercb/
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Russia claims to have invented an alternative to fracking
« Reply #20 on: August 23, 2017, 07:01:36 pm »
Nope, my bad, as it was just injuries.

Interestingly, I did find that even using propane GasFrac was able to contaminate groundwater, which I though was a chief reason it was utilizing propane.  I believe the mgt was just incompetent, so perhaps propane was not given a good enough shake.

Having incompetency in the fraccing business is a sure way to stop fraccing, so good riddance to their departure.

Hydraulic fracturing with gelled propane by Gasfrac/Crew Energy Inc./Caltex Energy Inc. contaminated groundwater near Grande Prairie: ERCB Investigative Report and groundwater monitoring by Alberta Environment

http://www.ernstversusencana.ca/gelledpropane-gel-gasfrac-crew-caltrex-hydraulic-fracturing-fluid-contaminated-groundwater-near-grande-prairie-ercb/
Thanks. Interesting. Having the pipe tally off by a factor of ten is exploring the outer boundaries of known incompetence. I wonder who did that one?
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: Russia claims to have invented an alternative to fracking
« Reply #21 on: August 23, 2017, 08:43:12 pm »
Thanks. Interesting. Having the pipe tally off by a factor of ten is exploring the outer boundaries of known incompetence. I wonder who did that one?
Looks to be a couple of guys who were subsequently fired.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/gasfrac-commences-management-restructuring-operational-141506219.html

The Operating officer was a former Halliburton manager.
http://www.zoominfo.com/p/Steve-Batchelor/322222959
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington