Author Topic: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States  (Read 22032 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline goodwithagun

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2,885

Your right to free speech is not conditional upon what you have to say.  Just as a state's right to secede is not conditional upon the correct reason.

Libel, slander?
My gun has killed fewer people than Ted Kennedy's car.

Offline goodwithagun

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2,885
My gun has killed fewer people than Ted Kennedy's car.

Offline Hoodat

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 5,221
Libel, slander?

Those would be civil actions - not criminal ones.  Civil actions based upon someone exercising their right to free speech.  I never said there weren't consequences.  Yet free speech was nevertheless exercised.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-

Offline Cripplecreek

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 12,748
  • Constitutional Extremist
Ahh, the Joos are at it again  *****rollingeyes***** Seriously, Alex could be less predictable.

I like juice.

Nothing should make a man happier than knowing his government couldn't care less about him.
I'd rather lose defending the constitution than win at its expense.
Hitlers are born and die every day without notice. Its the morons who put them in power that are dangerous.
You don't escape guilt by declaring that you have no choice.
Lese-majeste is my middle name

Offline edpc

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 11,024
  • Professional Misanthrope
I disagree.  Circle gets the square.

Offline dfwgator

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 9,970

Offline goodwithagun

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2,885
Those would be civil actions - not criminal ones.  Civil actions based upon someone exercising their right to free speech.  I never said there weren't consequences.  Yet free speech was nevertheless exercised.

But you state that a state doesn't need a "correct reason" to secede.
My gun has killed fewer people than Ted Kennedy's car.

Offline goodwithagun

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2,885
My gun has killed fewer people than Ted Kennedy's car.

Offline goodwithagun

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2,885
My gun has killed fewer people than Ted Kennedy's car.

Offline edpc

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 11,024
  • Professional Misanthrope
Those would be civil actions - not criminal ones.

There's no federal law against it, but 15 states have criminal defamation laws.

Florida, Idaho, Kansas, Louisiana, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Montana, New Hampshire, New Mexico, North Carolina, North Dakota, Oklahoma, Utah, Virginia, Wisconsin
« Last Edit: August 15, 2017, 12:23:26 AM by edpc »
I disagree.  Circle gets the square.

Offline Smokin Joe

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 20,272
I've resisted responding to your anti-Confederate rhetoric, claiming my ancestors were treasonous, etc.

Guess what buddy....  6 of 7 of my direct civil war ancestors did not own slaves, but fought with valor for their homeland.

So answer this.   A foreign power invades your land.  (Which the north did first in VA), threatening your economic well being, and way of life.  You just lay down? 

You have been seriously brainwashed by the PC history revisionist.
THe first invasion wasn't even a State that had seceded, nor was it allowed to. There was bloodshed during that invasion, bridges were destroyed, rail lines disrupted to slow its progress, and the first dead of the war, shot by Northern Militias all happened in Maryland.

The opening verses of the State song, written by an expatriate in Louisiana:

The despot's heel is on thy shore, Maryland!
His torch is at thy temple door, Maryland!
Avenge the patriotic gore That flecked the streets of Baltimore,
And be the battle queen of yore, Maryland! My Maryland!

Hark to an exiled son's appeal, Maryland!
My mother State! to thee I kneel, Maryland!
For life and death, for woe and weal, Thy peerless chivalry reveal,
And gird they beauteous limbs with steel, Maryland! My Maryland!



source: http://www.lyricsondemand.com/miscellaneouslyrics/statesongslyrics/marylandstatesonglyrics.html


Maryland voted for Breckinridge in 1860, but a vote on secession was not allowed until the Legislature had been replaced during the war. Maryland remained an occupied State for the duration and beyond.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression
And I looked, and rose up, and said unto the nobles, and to the rulers, and to the rest of the people, Be not ye afraid of them: remember the Lord, which is great and terrible, and fight for your brethren, your sons, and your daughters, your wives, and your houses. Nehemiah 4:14 (KJV)

About the only "Big" Liberals don't revile is "Big Government"

Offline Smokin Joe

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 20,272
No.  It's more important than the Constitution.

It's the ESTABLISHING document by which the governing document derives its existence.

Without the Establishing document - there is no governing document that would have been created for the sole purpose of limiting governance to very specific and menial things necessary for a civil society to exist with its liberty intact.

Our rights, nor the existence of liberty comes from any document from men.  It is established along with fundamental rights that a people possess to abolish the forms to which they are grown accustomed which evinces the design to render them under absolute despotism.  A reality we now live in that we lie to ourselves about because mankind are more disposed to suffer evil while evils are sufferable than right themselves.

So all kinds of excuses are made to justify existing under despotism, because such evil is sufferable, and any thoughts or efforts to abolish it are rendered distasteful by those unwilling to risk the thought of liberty.
Well said!
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression
And I looked, and rose up, and said unto the nobles, and to the rulers, and to the rest of the people, Be not ye afraid of them: remember the Lord, which is great and terrible, and fight for your brethren, your sons, and your daughters, your wives, and your houses. Nehemiah 4:14 (KJV)

About the only "Big" Liberals don't revile is "Big Government"

Offline Smokin Joe

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 20,272
I posted earlier that I believe states have the right to secede. Their rights to secede end when the basis is the deprivation of the rights of others, namely slaves.
A right's existence is not contingent on the motivation for the action.
 
Slavery was an issue (a threat of economic sanction), but economics were the reason for the secession.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression
And I looked, and rose up, and said unto the nobles, and to the rulers, and to the rest of the people, Be not ye afraid of them: remember the Lord, which is great and terrible, and fight for your brethren, your sons, and your daughters, your wives, and your houses. Nehemiah 4:14 (KJV)

About the only "Big" Liberals don't revile is "Big Government"

HonestJohn

  • Guest
I've resisted responding to your anti-Confederate rhetoric, claiming my ancestors were treasonous, etc.

Guess what buddy....  6 of 7 of my direct civil war ancestors did not own slaves, but fought with valor for their homeland.

So answer this.   A foreign power invades your land.  (Which the north did first in VA), threatening your economic well being, and way of life.  You just lay down? 

You have been seriously brainwashed by the PC history revisionist.

America is a foreign power in its own land?

Who's brainwashed again?

I pointed out the obvious, that one can argue hypothetical points of law until the cows come home.  But at the end of the day, history shows what really happened.  1,264,000 Americans died and there is no Confederacy.

For America will fight a major war to stop any rebellious state from trying to secede.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2017, 01:24:52 AM by HonestJohn »

Offline Smokin Joe

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 20,272
America is a foreign power in its own land?

Who's brainwashed again?

I pointed out the obvious, that one can argue hypothetical points of law until the cows come home.  But at the end of the day, history shows what really happened.  1,264,000 Americans died and there is no Confederacy.

For America will fight a major war to stop any rebellious state from trying to secede.
IIRC, the matter at issue was exactly whether the States in Secession were Federal Land.
(I thought that was limited to the federal District and some military outposts).
Trial by combat often does not produce justice.
As for secession, we'll see, won't we? California may be the next test case.

« Last Edit: August 15, 2017, 01:49:37 AM by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression
And I looked, and rose up, and said unto the nobles, and to the rulers, and to the rest of the people, Be not ye afraid of them: remember the Lord, which is great and terrible, and fight for your brethren, your sons, and your daughters, your wives, and your houses. Nehemiah 4:14 (KJV)

About the only "Big" Liberals don't revile is "Big Government"

Online INVAR

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 11,792
  • Dread To Tread
    • Sword At The Ready
But at the end of the day, history shows what really happened.  1,264,000 Americans died and there is no Confederacy.

For America will fight a major war to stop any rebellious state from trying to secede.

Had the Colonies lost to the Crown, King George III would be singing the same exact tune.

However, none of that diminishes the truth of what was outlined in the Declaration.  Tyranny is imposed by force.

Which is exactly all your line of reasoning is.

Just another variation of 'Bake the cake!"  No, you may NOT refuse to do as we say!

All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline Sighlass

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,297
  • I'm Christian, WODer, NeverTrumper. Offended Yet?
No.  It's more important than the Constitution.

It's the ESTABLISHING document by which the governing document derives its existence.

Without the Establishing document - there is no governing document that would have been created for the sole purpose of limiting governance to very specific and menial things necessary for a civil society to exist with its liberty intact.

Our rights, nor the existence of liberty comes from any document from men.  It is established along with fundamental rights that a people possess to abolish the forms to which they are grown accustomed which evinces the design to render them under absolute despotism.  A reality we now live in that we lie to ourselves about because mankind are more disposed to suffer evil while evils are sufferable than right themselves.

So all kinds of excuses are made to justify existing under despotism, because such evil is sufferable, and any thoughts or efforts to abolish it are rendered distasteful by those unwilling to risk the thought of liberty.

Agree the Declaration is Independence is part of our law system.

@INVAR

Natural Law

http://www.visionandvalues.org/barker/
If one of my links gives you problems, please let me know. Thanks !

Offline catfish1957

  • Ultra-Conservative in exile.
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 6,093
America is a foreign power in its own land?

Who's brainwashed again?

I pointed out the obvious, that one can argue hypothetical points of law until the cows come home.  But at the end of the day, history shows what really happened.  1,264,000 Americans died and there is no Confederacy.

For America will fight a major war to stop any rebellious state from trying to secede.

A foreign force tearing  through a seceded land is not an invasion? Do you understand what that sounds like?  I bet you were cheerleading as Sherman was raping and pillaging through Georgia and SC in that non-invasion.

Yeah, you never answered my question about whether my ancestors were treasonous for defending themselves.  Yep, you are past brainwashed.  You have terminally succumbed to the PC historical revisonist propaganda.  A full tilt dumbing down.
I display the Confederate Battle Flag in honor of my great great great grandfathers who spilled blood at Wilson's Creek and Shiloh.  5 others served in the WBTS with honor too.

Offline Bigun

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 30,248
  • The income tax: Root of all evil!
    • The FairTax Plan
The Federalist papers were used as a guide.  But it is ultimately the Constitution upon which those decisions were based.

Many things have been cited as dicta in court decisions but very few of those decisions were rendered on the basis of those things.  I think @IsailedawayfromFR  is right about @goodwithagun not being up to speed on this subject.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2017, 07:21:07 AM by Bigun »

Offline Bigun

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 30,248
  • The income tax: Root of all evil!
    • The FairTax Plan
No.  It's more important than the Constitution.

It's the ESTABLISHING document by which the governing document derives its existence.

Without the Establishing document - there is no governing document that would have been created for the sole purpose of limiting governance to very specific and menial things necessary for a civil society to exist with its liberty intact.

Our rights, nor the existence of liberty comes from any document from men.  It is established along with fundamental rights that a people possess to abolish the forms to which they are grown accustomed which evinces the design to render them under absolute despotism.  A reality we now live in that we lie to ourselves about because mankind are more disposed to suffer evil while evils are sufferable than right themselves.

So all kinds of excuses are made to justify existing under despotism, because such evil is sufferable, and any thoughts or efforts to abolish it are rendered distasteful by those unwilling to risk the thought of liberty.

The Declaration of Independence is EXACTLY what it says it is!  It is a DECLARATION proclaiming the many reasons why the Original 13 colonies were taking the action they chose to take against the King and his government.  Pretty much the same thing the 11 states who sought to leave the Union were doing!  But, as a legal matter, it is just a statement and nothing more.

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,881
  • Sept 11 2001 or March 6 1836
No, it doesn't work that way.  You don't get to be the arbiter of that right.  Either they have that right or they do not.

btw, slavery remained legal in Maryland, Delaware, Kentucky, and Missouri after those other eleven states left the Union.  So those eleven states did not secede so that they could legalize slavery.  It was already legal.
Freedom works that way.  One is nothing but a slave if one is chained down and forced to be subjugated against one's will.  The Declaration of Independence spells it out pretty succinctly.  It was not about the issue of slavery as that was preserved, it was about the issue of freedom.

That is what @goodwithagun failed to grasp when he began talking about 'enslavement'.
Yearning to stay free takes place in many ways at many different times, whether by withstanding planes or bayonets

Offline goatprairie

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 3,616



@goatprairie
Grant's wife had owned a few slaves which Grant obtained one through no effort of his own.  He wrote a letter of manumission in 1859 freeing the man named Jones (look it up...it's on the internet) and certainly owned no slaves during the war.
Grant also made mention during the war of "knocking out slavery."
Certainly, a  number of Northerners, like Sherman, had no problem with slavery.
But the fact of the matter the institution was destroyed by the war never to recover.

Offline The_Reader_David

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 674
One of those clashes where you hope both sides lose.  What is concerning though is our history is systematically being erased from the south to placate BLM.  Unfortunately when the KKK and white nationalists are the ones standing up for these monuments, its hard for anyone else to see the cause as very sympathetic.

I'm afraid our attempt to educate our children with the true history of our country, both good and bad, is becoming much harder with the sanitization by some of the snowflakes and vilification by the others of prominent events and figures in our history.

Spot on.

I'd like to see a "plague on both there houses" movement by people who actually want to preserve Southern heritage that would take the position that monuments to Confederate figures who were irredentist after the Civil War be pulled down, while those who were models of reconciliation, at least late in life, be preserved with new plaques commemorating both their martial hardihood and their work of reconciliation.  That would leave Robert E. Lee's statues up, with plaques commemorating his kneeling beside a freed slave at the communion rail;  Nathan Bedford Forrest would be commemorated for repenting of founding the original KKK and ordering its disbanding and becoming a noted benefactor of the black community later in life; and P.G.T Beauregard commemorated for his work in the Reform Party in Louisiana, advocating for civil rights and voting rights for freed slaves.
And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know what this was all about.

Offline TomSea

  • TBR Contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 26,493
The Declaration of Independence is EXACTLY what it says it is!  It is a DECLARATION proclaiming the many reasons why the Original 13 colonies were taking the action they chose to take against the King and his government.  Pretty much the same thing the 11 states who sought to leave the Union were doing!  But, as a legal matter, it is just a statement and nothing more.

This is exactly right. The DOI is a pep talk, a rallying cry, a great document but I guess, it's not exactly binding. I've heard that discussed before.
Ephesians 4:26

26 Be angry, and yet do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger,

Offline Hoodat

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 5,221
Grant also made mention during the war of "knocking out slavery."
Certainly, a  number of Northerners, like Sherman, had no problem with slavery.
But the fact of the matter the institution was destroyed by the war never to recover.

During the War, Grant also was known to say, "Pass me another bottle of bourbon, Lieutenant!"


Certainly, a  number of Northerners, like Sherman, had no problem with slavery.
But the fact of the matter the institution was destroyed by the war never to recover.

The institution of slavery was destroyed by abolitionists like John Fremont who threatened to leave the GOP if they didn't make it part of their 1864 platform.  Not wanting to lose Fremont's support, Lincoln reluctantly agreed.




If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf