Trump warns N. Korea it will face 'fire and fury'

[Mad Max]

I really think is a threat because its figures so prominently in the literature such as Stratfor and Popular Mechanics.Some estimates suggest that the Korean People’s Army could hit Seoul with at least 500,000 shells in less than an hour. The U.S. and its allies could destroy the North’s artillery units eventually, but not before the destruction of South Korea’s capital. The damage could be even worse if the North Koreans decided to use chemical rounds.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a6211/north-korea-conflict-weapon
http://www.businessinsider.com/3-maps-that-outline-north-koreas-military-might-2016-2
https://worldview.stratfor.com/article/how-north-korea-would-retaliate

There is hope. The South Koreans has developed new radar systems that can detect these pieces about 40 miles away. Its called ARTHUR

http://english.yonhapnews.co.kr/news/2017/04/24/0200000000AEN20170424004651315.html

[driftdiver]

This threat is overblown.  Seoul is more than 30 mi from the border.  The Norks have one model that reach that far with rocket assisted shells.  They don't have many and the 170 mm size makes the rate of fire slow.  They'd be spotted and hit with counter battery fire and air strikes quickly.  They're more vulnerable to missiles, but the Norks need time to fuel them.  They can't remain fueled indefinitely, since its corrosive.

That must be why a 2 star general told my tactical unit the NKs were massed at the border and that we could expect 75% casualties if the fan hit the feces.  /s

[Mad Max]

That must be why a 2 star general told my tactical unit the NKs were massed at the border and that we could expect 75% casualties if the fan hit the feces.  /s

 

[Victoria33]

Try to keep up.  Clemenceau once said about war that it was to important to be left to the generals. This is now a  de hombre a hombre fight.    Trump vs Kim.  Cage match with nukes.

@Wingnut

No, YOU should keep up.  I said a fact - N. Korea threatened to do a preemptive strike on Guam.  You said, "That doesn't make it true."   Actually, you are all over this board with nonsense statements to everyone.  Do whatever, but I won't answer anymore.

[edpc]

That must be why a 2 star general told my tactical unit the NKs were massed at the border and that we could expect 75% casualties if the fan hit the feces.

Perhaps you missed the part where I was addressing, specifically, the artillery threat to Seoul. Reading is fundamental.

[driftdiver]

Perhaps you missed the part where I was addressing, specifically, the artillery threat to Seoul. Reading is fundamental.

I was south of Seoul at the time..  Your facts are wrong.  There is a significant threat to the region.

[Right_in_Virginia]

If I was Trump I would tell China that if you take out the Kim family, tariffs won't be raised.

Interesting idea @kevindavis ......

Fox News‏Verified account @FoxNews 10m10 minutes ago
Victor Davis Hanson: China is the only country that can pressure North Korea, and we're the only country that can pressure China. #Tucker

[Bigun]

I am - most specifically the Americans that are most at risk - those under command of the CiC.  Being a former one, I'm a bit tired of them dying in vain for police actions, domino theories, Somali warlords, wag the dog bs, and nation building.

Plenty of misadventures to be sure, but the domino theory wasn't one of them.  That was spot on target.

[Mad Max]

I was south of Seoul at the time..  Your facts are wrong.  There is a significant threat to the region.

The entire country is at risk if they use ballistic missiles and chemical weapons along with the artillery. North Korea will use chemical weapons on South Korea and our troops. They do not care about the consequences if they do. We would respond with nuclear weapons.

 

[edpc]

I was south of Seoul at the time..  Your facts are wrong.  There is a significant threat to the region.

Fine, then don't give me anecdotal BS and tell me the facts which artillery pieces they have in their possession that can reach that far.  You can't.

[edpc]

The entire country is at risk if they use ballistic missiles and chemical weapons along with the artillery.

Two of those things weren't part of the discussion. You tell me which ones.

[EasyAce]

With the shock of war, however, the State comes into its own again. The Government, with no
mandate from the people, without consultation of the people, conducts all the negotiations, the backing
and filling, the menaces and explanations, which slowly bring it into collision with some other Government,
and gently and irresistibly slides the country into war. For the benefit of proud and haughty citizens, it is
fortified with a list of the intolerable insults which have been hurled toward us by the other nations; for
the benefit of the liberal and beneficent, it has a convincing set of moral purposes which our going to war
will achieve; for the ambitious and aggressive classes, it can gently whisper of a bigger role in the destiny
of the world. The result is that, even in those countries where the business of declaring war is theoretically
in the hands of representatives of the people, no legislature has ever been known to decline the request
of an Executive, which has conducted all foreign affairs in utter privacy and irresponsibility, that it order
the nation into battle. Good democrats are wont to feel the crucial difference between a State in which
the popular Parliament or Congress declares war, and the State in which an absolute monarch or ruling
class declares war. But, put to the stern pragmatic test, the difference is not striking. In the freest of
republics as well as in the most tyrannical of empires, all foreign policy, the diplomatic negotiations which
produce or forestall war, are equally the private property of the Executive part of the Government, and
are equally exposed to no check whatever from popular bodies, or the people voting as a mass themselves.

The moment war is declared, however, the mass of the people, through some spiritual alchemy, become
convinced that they have willed and executed the deed themselves. They then, with the exception of a few
malcontents, proceed to allow themselves to be regimented, coerced, deranged in all the environments of
their lives, and turned into a solid manufactory of destruction toward whatever other people may have, in
the appointed scheme of things, come within the range of the Government’s disapprobation. The citizen
throws off his contempt and indifference to Government, identifies himself with its purposes, revives all
his military memories and symbols, and the State once more walks, an august presence, through the
imaginations of men.

---Randolph Bourne, in The State

[Wingnut]

@Wingnut

No, YOU should keep up.  I said a fact - N. Korea threatened to do a preemptive strike on Guam.  You said, "That doesn't make it true."   Actually, you are all over this board with nonsense statements to everyone.  Do whatever, but I won't answer anymore.

Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever read on this site..  Good day Madam.   

[driftdiver]

Fine, then don't give me anecdotal BS and tell me the facts which artillery pieces they have in their possession that can reach that far.  You can't.

There are plenty of published reports which also say you are wrong.  But hey perhaps one of the highest ranking leaders in country didn't know what he was talking about.   

I guess that's possible. 

[Free Vulcan]

People been saying they can't do this or do that for years.  Yet they do it.  They've gone from a rocket that blows up on the launch pad to an icbm faster then we did.  They are getting help.

The other problem is they are bat crazy and acting like they have nothing to lose, ready to go out in a blaze of glory. And who knows what kind of scorched earth asymmetric crap they will come up with if they get cornered.

[Right_in_Virginia]

Here's a little more information on NK "carefully examining" a strike on Guam.  BTW  "KCNA" is the news outlet of the NK government ... slightly less reliable than the NYT.

North Korea says seriously considering plan to strike Guam: KCNA
Reuters, Aug 8, 2017

SEOUL (Reuters) - North Korea said on Wednesday it is "carefully examining" plans for a missile strike on the U.S. Pacific territory of Guam, just hours after U.S. President Donald Trump told the North that any threat to the United States would be met with "fire and fury".

North Korea has made no secret of plans to develop a nuclear-tipped missile able to strike the United States and has ignored international calls to halt its nuclear and missile programs.

The strike plan would be put into practice at any moment once leader Kim Jong Un makes a decision, a spokesman for the Korean People's Army (KPA) said in a statement carried by the North's state-run KCNA news agency.

"The KPA Strategic Force is now carefully examining the operational plan for making an enveloping fire at the areas around Guam with medium-to-long-range strategic ballistic rocket Hwasong-12 in order to contain the U.S. major military bases on Guam including the Anderson Air Force Base," the spokesman said.

The plan would be reported to the North's Supreme Command soon, the spokesman said, without citing a date.

More:  http://www.reuters.com/article/us-northkorea-missiles-usa-idUSKBN1AO2L9

[kevindavis007]

Interesting idea @kevindavis ......

I think it is a good deal that China should take if Trumps offer it and he should offer it. If they do take out the Kim family, I'm sure the NK army won't put up a fight.

[edpc]

There are plenty of published reports which also say you are wrong.  But hey perhaps one of the highest ranking leaders in country didn't know what he was talking about.

Again with the conveniently nebulous.  Answer the question I posed, name the MG and post his findings, cite an article you mentioned, or STFU.

[ABX]

There is hope. The South Koreans has developed new radar systems that can detect these pieces about 40 miles away. Its called ARTHUR

http://english.yonhapnews.co.kr/news/2017/04/24/0200000000AEN20170424004651315.html

A M114 Howitzer 155mm shell can have a speed of 563meters/s or about 1200mph. At 40 miles, assuming around 45 degree launch (I'm too lazy to think about it beyond this), that gives you about 33.33 seconds notice.

[ABX]

Fine, then don't give me anecdotal BS and tell me the facts which artillery pieces they have in their possession that can reach that far.  You can't.

Even old Soviet surplus, if maintained, isn't a spitball shooter. Analysis of what NK had in 2010.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a6211/north-korea-conflict-weapons-available/

[montanajoe]

This threat is overblown.  Seoul is more than 30 mi from the border.  The Norks have one model that reach that far with rocket assisted shells.  They don't have many and the 170 mm size makes the rate of fire slow.  They'd be spotted and hit with counter battery fire and air strikes quickly.  They're more vulnerable to missiles, but the Norks need time to fuel them.  They can't remain fueled indefinitely, since its corrosive.

Said by a keyboard warrior who has clearly never been to Soeul or the DMZ. As I've said in several previous posts Seoul has grown to within a stones throw of the DMZ...http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,274075.msg1407012.html#msg1407012

The horse has left the barn. Talk that we can, at this point, launch any type of military action short of a Declaration of War is simply naive or uninformed. The only way forward is overwhelming military deterance in cooperation with our allies in the region.

[edpc]

Even old Soviet surplus, if maintained, isn't a spitball shooter. Analysis of what NK had in 2010.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a6211/north-korea-conflict-weapons-available/

Yes, I mentioned the 170mm gun discussed in the article previously.  It's too cumbersome to be portable and has an extremely low rate of fire - about 2 rounds in 5 minutes with good crews.  The city of Grozny was pounded by Russia in 1999 with heavy weapons unopposed and that still took months to destroy.  Norks won't have anywhere near that time.

[Oceander]

Fine, then don't give me anecdotal BS and tell me the facts which artillery pieces they have in their possession that can reach that far.  You can't.

Try this on for size:  http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/could-north-korea-annihilate-seoul-its-artillery-20345

They apparently have about 700 pieces that could reach that far. 

[edpc]

Said by a keyboard warrior who has clearly never been to Soeul or the DMZ. As I've said in several previous posts Seoul has grown to within a stones throw of the DMZ...http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,274075.msg1407012.html#msg1407012

The horse has left the barn. Talk that we can, at this point, launch any type of military action short of a Declaration of War is simply naive or uninformed. The only way forward is overwhelming military deterance in cooperation with our allies in the region.

Said by someone who can read a map and knows places like Bucheon and Uijeongbu aren't Seoul.

[HonestJohn]

Said by someone who can read a map and knows places like Bucheon and Uijeongbu aren't Seoul.

Uijeongbu isn't Seoul?

Well, technically no.  But if you can point out the greenery separating the two, I'd be happy to entertain your POV.

From Buk-Uijeongbu in the north to Suwon in the south... it's a solid mass of cityscape.