US, allies prepared to use 'overwhelming force' in North Korea, general says

[Maj. Bill Martin]

I did not recommend using nukes, I just said that if you want to take out the artillery quickly there only one way. Nukes.

No argument there.  I was just adding to your point by pointing out why that isn't an option either.

[montanajoe]

All this talk about what the military can and should do by the keyboard warriors would be funny with anybody but Trump sitting in the oval office. Unfortunately, Trump is as clueless as his acolytes, one can only hope that Mattis and Kelly will prevent him from doing something so stupid that millions will be slaughtered.

The simple fact is that NK has both nukes and ICBM's and there is nothing the US can do about it short of war in Asia. If the US chooses that course then this administration needs to ask Congress for a declaration of war.

As I've said in several other posts those advocating some kind of military operation on the peninsula have simply never been to Seoul. It's a city of 11 million the DMZ is only about 35 miles from the city center and the city itself has grown practically right to the DMZ. There are daily tours to the DMZ...

We have  about 35,000 troops stationed there. There are another 100-150,000 Americans in the metro area along with 200-300,000 Japanese and more than 500,000 Chinese as well as hundreds of thousands of others from the Philippines, Vietnam, Malaysia, Russia and other countries.

NK has hundreds of thousands of well trained ferociously loyal troops along practically every inch of the border. Additionally the DMZ is infiltrated with scores of tunnels large enough for a battalion with their heavy armor to get through in a few hours.

Even without resorting to their nukes, which I have little confidence that they would not, the death toll in Seoul alone could within a day be in the hundreds of thousands, if not millions, with a not insignificant proportion of those being Americans, Japanese, Chinese in addition to the Koreans.

In such a scenario, the US would quickly and justifiably be called out as a rouge nation and the calls within China and Russia for retaliation could very well become irresistible. Additionally, the middle east would likely blow up, Israel would quickly face the choice of striking Iran or being toast and the Pakistanis would likely come to NK's aide.

The US taking such a risk for so little gain is not the way America and its military do things, it is against the basic values of this great country.

NK's nukes and ICBM's are a done deal. Talk of any military action less than a declaration of war against NK is foolhardy and bound to fail. The only effective course now is Deterrence. The US with the South Koreans and Japanese needs to both increase our troop strength and antimissile capability  in Korea along with a upgrade of all our conventional and nuclear capability in the region.....

[Wingnut]

I think what the world needs is a good nuke drop. Couple of megaton yield ought to suffice. It's about time the people see what it is all about.  Now since we are the only country to ever drop one on people and know how to do it..I nominate us to re educate the dumb asses of the world.

[Maj. Bill Martin]

NK's nukes and ICBM's are a done deal.

No they are not.  Just because you have a nuke and an ICBM does not mean you have nukes that are capable of smaller/efficient enough to put one on an ICBM.  I do not trust North Korea, at all, not to sell one to some terrorist group or rogue nation, nor do I trust them not to use it to blackmail other nations.

If the big guys think they can knock out either the nuke or the missile program, I wouldn't have a problem with them doing it.

[Oceander]

Just start withdrawing troops from South Korea, and moving air and naval assets to the Pacific.  Don't explain the troop movements, but reiterate the security guarantee to South Korea.  Someone will eventually figure out that removing U.S. troops from South Korea is intended to remove ROK from any U.S./NORK conflict so we don't have to worry about Seoul getting pounded if we attack.

As our air and naval forces in the region increase, and our troop strength in ROK decreases, both the Chinese and North Koreans will start getting really nervous.  The speculation will be that when all our troops are out, we will strike North Korean nuclear and long-range missile facilities.  We shouldn't deny that, but state only that if we do decide to take any action, it will only involve U.S. military forces and not those of our allies.  Let that fester for a bit and see if the Chinese decide to get serious and pull North Korea's horns.

If not, then when we bomb them, there's a pretty good chance we can keep the ROK's out of it. 

The NK is not going to remove Seoul from the equation.  Why would they?  Why give up such a juicy bargaining chip with the US?

[unite for individuality]

All this talk about what the military can and should do by the keyboard warriors would be funny with anybody but Trump sitting in the oval office. Unfortunately, Trump is as clueless as his acolytes, one can only hope that Mattis and Kelly will prevent him from doing something so stupid that millions will be slaughtered.

The simple fact is that NK has both nukes and ICBM's and there is nothing the US can do about it short of war in Asia.

Etc.

The post referenced above is a realistic look at what could POSSIBLY happen.
Everything montanajoe warns against actually COULD happen.
That's not the same as actually WOULD happen.

It's quite possible that Russia and China also dislike
the idea of a nuclear-armed lunatic state.
For years, I've seen North Korea as "China's pit bull."
China kept the NORKs around  to do the dirty jobs
for which China doesn't want to be blamed.

But China may be changing their assessment.
China might now see North Korea as "too destabilizing."
And if there's anything China likes, it's stability!
It's been the centerpiece of Chinese culture for 5000 years!

Any time you look at the possible consequences of an action,
you also have to look at the possible consequences of NOT taking action.
In this case, the consequences of not taking action never get any better.
They only keep getting worse.
The lunatic just keeps becoming MORE powerful and MORE dangerous!

You and I are not in on the private conversations Mr. Trump has had
with numerous Chinese and Russian leaders.
What's been said in private among those folks
has A LOT to do with whether or not
the things that COULD happen
actually WOULD happen.

[SunkenCiv]

The lethal dolt in charge of the illegal Pyongyang regime should always be referred to either as "Pillsbury Doughboy" or "Teeny-Peeny".  It'll work better, faster, and with less risk than any other approach.

[Suppressed]

The lethal dolt in charge of the illegal Pyongyang regime should always be referred to either as "Pillsbury Doughboy" or "Teeny-Peeny".  It'll work better, faster, and with less risk than any other approach.

Might get confusing who is being referred to, what with current political conditions.

[SunkenCiv]

And Maddie Albright.

You're asking a lot from that missile.  /rimshot!

[driftdiver]

The post referenced above is a realistic look at what could POSSIBLY happen.
Everything montanajoe warns against actually COULD happen.
That's not the same as actually WOULD happen.

It's quite possible that Russia and China also dislike
the idea of a nuclear-armed lunatic state.
For years, I've seen North Korea as "China's pit bull."
China kept the NORKs around  to do the dirty jobs
for which China doesn't want to be blamed.

But China may be changing their assessment.
China might now see North Korea as "too destabilizing."
And if there's anything China likes, it's stability!
It's been the centerpiece of Chinese culture for 5000 years!

Any time you look at the possible consequences of an action,
you also have to look at the possible consequences of NOT taking action.
In this case, the consequences of not taking action never get any better.
They only keep getting worse.
The lunatic just keeps becoming MORE powerful and MORE dangerous!

You and I are not in on the private conversations Mr. Trump has had
with numerous Chinese and Russian leaders.
What's been said in private among those folks
has A LOT to do with whether or not
the things that COULD happen
actually WOULD happen.

China's likes things the way they are.  They also know the missiles aren't aimed at them.

[skeeter]

Might get confusing who is being referred to, what with current political conditions.

To some of the turgid bellyachers on this board, perhaps. But not to most reasonable people.

[jpsb]

No argument there.  I was just adding to your point by pointing out why that isn't an option either.

Cool, I had not given the proximity issue much thought since nuke come in all sizes. But your are most likely correct, nukes are not an option. This war, if it happens, will be even uglier then KW1 and that was a very ugly war.

I did like your idea of moving US troops out and conducting a US only air strike as an attempt at not starting a general war. Probably would not work but it is the only idea I've heard that has any merit.

[thackney]

Cool, I had not given the proximity issue much thought since nuke come in all sizes. But your are most likely correct, nukes are not an option. This war, if it happens, will be even uglier then KW1 and that was a very ugly war.

I did like your idea of moving US troops out and conducting a US only air strike as an attempt at not starting a general war. Probably would not work but it is the only idea I've heard that has any merit.

Wisconsin Airmen to deploy in support of U.S. Pacific Command
http://www.115fw.ang.af.mil/Media/Article-Display/Article/1264018/wisconsin-airmen-to-deploy-in-support-of-us-pacific-command/
August 01, 2017

Airmen and aircraft from the 115th Fighter Wing in Madison, Wisconsin are set to deploy on a four month rotation to Kunsan Air Base, Korea in support of U.S. Pacific Command’s Theater Security Package. The Airmen and aircraft are set to arrive at Kunsan AB in early August.

Approximately 270 personnel and 12 F-16 Fighting Falcons will conduct operational joint-training missions led by the 8th Fighter Wing of Kunsan in the USPACOM area of responsibility. The 115th FW's participation in the TSP deployment is part of a force package of fighter units through the Indo-Asia-Pacific region designed to enhance regional security and demonstrate U.S. commitment to peace and stability in the area...

[Jazzhead]

All this talk about what the military can and should do by the keyboard warriors would be funny with anybody but Trump sitting in the oval office. Unfortunately, Trump is as clueless as his acolytes, one can only hope that Mattis and Kelly will prevent him from doing something so stupid that millions will be slaughtered.

The simple fact is that NK has both nukes and ICBM's and there is nothing the US can do about it short of war in Asia. If the US chooses that course then this administration needs to ask Congress for a declaration of war.

As I've said in several other posts those advocating some kind of military operation on the peninsula have simply never been to Seoul. It's a city of 11 million the DMZ is only about 35 miles from the city center and the city itself has grown practically right to the DMZ. There are daily tours to the DMZ...

We have  about 35,000 troops stationed there. There are another 100-150,000 Americans in the metro area along with 200-300,000 Japanese and more than 500,000 Chinese as well as hundreds of thousands of others from the Philippines, Vietnam, Malaysia, Russia and other countries.

NK has hundreds of thousands of well trained ferociously loyal troops along practically every inch of the border. Additionally the DMZ is infiltrated with scores of tunnels large enough for a battalion with their heavy armor to get through in a few hours.

Even without resorting to their nukes, which I have little confidence that they would not, the death toll in Seoul alone could within a day be in the hundreds of thousands, if not millions, with a not insignificant proportion of those being Americans, Japanese, Chinese in addition to the Koreans.

In such a scenario, the US would quickly and justifiably be called out as a rouge nation and the calls within China and Russia for retaliation could very well become irresistible. Additionally, the middle east would likely blow up, Israel would quickly face the choice of striking Iran or being toast and the Pakistanis would likely come to NK's aide.

The US taking such a risk for so little gain is not the way America and its military do things, it is against the basic values of this great country.

NK's nukes and ICBM's are a done deal. Talk of any military action less than a declaration of war against NK is foolhardy and bound to fail. The only effective course now is Deterrence. The US with the South Koreans and Japanese needs to both increase our troop strength and antimissile capability  in Korea along with a upgrade of all our conventional and nuclear capability in the region.....

Thanks, MJ, for a substantive, sensible post.   NK has achieved its objective - to force acceptance of the Kim regime. We must now concentrate on deterrence,  effective engagement, and missile defense.   Heck, we should have put more resources into missile defense years ago,  so maybe the emergence of NK could be a blessing in disguise.   

One effective strategy may be to provide (or threaten to provide)  nuclear weapons technology to the Japanese and South Koreans.  If there's any hope at all that China could help force regime change, it would be in order to prevent a nuclear Japan and/or Korea.   

[TomSea]

All this talk about what the military can and should do by the keyboard warriors would be funny with anybody but Trump sitting in the oval office. Unfortunately, Trump is as clueless as his acolytes, one can only hope that Mattis and Kelly will prevent him from doing something so stupid that millions will be slaughtered.

The simple fact is that NK has both nukes and ICBM's and there is nothing the US can do about it short of war in Asia. If the US chooses that course then this administration needs to ask Congress for a declaration of war.

As I've said in several other posts those advocating some kind of military operation on the peninsula have simply never been to Seoul. It's a city of 11 million the DMZ is only about 35 miles from the city center and the city itself has grown practically right to the DMZ. There are daily tours to the DMZ...

We have  about 35,000 troops stationed there. There are another 100-150,000 Americans in the metro area along with 200-300,000 Japanese and more than 500,000 Chinese as well as hundreds of thousands of others from the Philippines, Vietnam, Malaysia, Russia and other countries.

NK has hundreds of thousands of well trained ferociously loyal troops along practically every inch of the border. Additionally the DMZ is infiltrated with scores of tunnels large enough for a battalion with their heavy armor to get through in a few hours.

Even without resorting to their nukes, which I have little confidence that they would not, the death toll in Seoul alone could within a day be in the hundreds of thousands, if not millions, with a not insignificant proportion of those being Americans, Japanese, Chinese in addition to the Koreans.

In such a scenario, the US would quickly and justifiably be called out as a rouge nation and the calls within China and Russia for retaliation could very well become irresistible. Additionally, the middle east would likely blow up, Israel would quickly face the choice of striking Iran or being toast and the Pakistanis would likely come to NK's aide.

The US taking such a risk for so little gain is not the way America and its military do things, it is against the basic values of this great country.

NK's nukes and ICBM's are a done deal. Talk of any military action less than a declaration of war against NK is foolhardy and bound to fail. The only effective course now is Deterrence. The US with the South Koreans and Japanese needs to both increase our troop strength and antimissile capability  in Korea along with a upgrade of all our conventional and nuclear capability in the region.....

Trash Trump, trash his supporters oh, and let's forget that it was a general who said this. Read the article?

" Gen. Terrence J. O’Shaughnessy, U.S. Pacific Air Forces commander, ".

Oh, brother. 

[TomSea]

BTW, some who have said nuke NK are not exactly Trump supporters. Oh, well.

We will do what is pragmatic I'm sure, no matter how the cookie crumbles, Japan and SK are in the first line of fire.

[montanajoe]

Trash Trump, trash his supporters oh, and let's forget that it was a general who said this. Read the article?

" Gen. Terrence J. O’Shaughnessy, U.S. Pacific Air Forces commander, ".

Oh, brother. 

Interesting uninformed comment.

To defeat the enemy US forces will use every weapon at thier disposal. The statements of the General were directed at the enemy...NK, they were aimed to scare Kim, to make him reconsider the provacations, to back down. They were not directed at the partisians in the US, and certainly weren't aimed to either prop up or bring down this administration thats not how a career General Officer operates.
 
The General is talking to the Norks, the majority of who have an undying and indead burning fanatism that demands fidality and alliegence to thier cult eader. O'Shaughness was addressing his comments to gain the maxium tactical advantage against NK

Its rather curious that the phyc-op opperarion against Kim also sets off the Trump supporters...would have to conclude its an effective strategy ..

[driftdiver]

Interesting uninformed comment.

To defeat the enemy US forces will use every weapon at thier disposal. The statements of the General were directed at the enemy...NK, they were aimed to scare Kim, to make him reconsider the provacations, to back down. They were not directed at the partisians in the US, and certainly weren't aimed to either prop up or bring down this administration thats not how a career General Officer operates.
 
The General is talking to the Norks, the majority of who have an undying and indead burning fanatism that demands fidality and alliegence to thier cult eader. O'Shaughness was addressing his comments to gain the maxium tactical advantage against NK

Its rather curious that the phyc-op opperarion against Kim also sets off the Trump supporters...would have to conclude its an effective strategy ..

Kim doesn't care.  He knows he will die badly if he doesn't do this.

[TomSea]

Interesting uninformed comment.

To defeat the enemy US forces will use every weapon at thier disposal. The statements of the General were directed at the enemy...NK, they were aimed to scare Kim, to make him reconsider the provacations, to back down. They were not directed at the partisians in the US, and certainly weren't aimed to either prop up or bring down this administration thats not how a career General Officer operates.
 
The General is talking to the Norks, the majority of who have an undying and indead burning fanatism that demands fidality and alliegence to thier cult eader. O'Shaughness was addressing his comments to gain the maxium tactical advantage against NK

Its rather curious that the phyc-op opperarion against Kim also sets off the Trump supporters...would have to conclude its an effective strategy ..

.

Keep up the ad homs, eventually it will catch up with you. I don't have to make a point insulting people and I won't be breaking the rules of this forum.  I would urge the moderators to note this.

If you didn't get the memo, we are being urged not to be insulting to each others. Next time, I will report.

And the General was just addressing the NORKS and even said it in Korean I gather.  Got it.

[unite for individuality]

China's likes things the way they are.  They also know the missiles aren't aimed at them.

North Korea will never attack China.
They know full well that, if they did,
China would not hesitate for one second
to vaporize North Korea into oblivion.

[unite for individuality]

Cool, I had not given the proximity issue much thought since nuke come in all sizes. But your are most likely correct, nukes are not an option. This war, if it happens, will be even uglier then KW1 and that was a very ugly war.

If it was up to me, I'd be willing to use bunker busting nukes.
Drop some bombs that will penetrate the ground
and shake the mountains apart.
This would be in combination with fuel-air bombs,
which Russia used very effectively in Chechnya.
Of course, I'm talking about destroying the Norks' forces near the DMZ.
I do not advocate targeting civilians.

Here's a description of the Norks' hardened artillery sites:
http://nautilus.org/publications/books/dprkbb/military/dprk-briefing-book-harts-in-north-korea/

The Korean War was pretty ugly.
The only thing that stopped it was
Eisenhower threatened to start using nukes.

In any case, the ONLY way our negotiating can be of ANY effect is,
the Norks need to understand that we REALLY ARE willing to use nukes!

[montanajoe]

Your strategy would also destroy an awful lot of South Koreans and Americans forever......

I can't see how any administration would be able to Constitutionally justify the first use of nuclear weapons in order to stop another country from acquiring them without a formal declaration of war. 

Seems to me that it would be an unlawful order...

[Maj. Bill Martin]

The NK is not going to remove Seoul from the equation.  Why would they?  Why give up such a juicy bargaining chip with the US?

I'm not saying they do -- I say we do.  NK can say "we won't accept that", we'll say "you'd better", and then keep putting the heat on.   Again, the goal is to convince NK and China that we are actually resolved to strike, and that we believe we've solved the Seoul issue by leaving ROK.  In terms of the how seriously they take out implicit threat, that's all that matters.

[driftdiver]

North Korea will never attack China.
They know full well that, if they did,
China would not hesitate for one second
to vaporize North Korea into oblivion.

North Korea won't attack China because they are friends with China.   They get a significant amount of their GDP through China and have deep cultural ties. 

Most Americans do not understand the Asian mindset.  I lived in South Korea for 3 years and still don't.

If Kim stops building nuked he would almost certainly be overthrown by internal forces.   He would die a very ugly death.   So he has nothing to lose.