Rand Paul: Buying American isn't necessarily the right choice

[thackney]

Got a link?

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/449762/made-america-not-important-21st-century

[Hoodat]

Agreed.  Restricting competition is the way to end up with lower quality and higher prices, everytime.

DING DING DING !!!  WE HAVE A WINNER !!!


(Would someone please show liberals how this also applies to health care and health insurance?)

[roamer_1]

You also have an entrepreneur who is still pouring his profits back into the US economy.  The alternative is that you have nothing.  Both laborers lose their jobs AND the entrepreneur closes up shop.

So why are we talking about manufacturing in the first place?  The US economy is driven by service - not manufacturing.  It has been that way for a very long time.  And there is nothing wrong with it either.  I have a service job, one made possible because of automation.  I work in the industrial automation field.  And I can attest to the hundreds of thousands of good-paying jobs that are born out of the automation field.

You have to make things, or all the service jobs dry up.

[driftdiver]

DING DING DING !!!  WE HAVE A WINNER !!!


(Would someone please show liberals how this also applies to health care and health insurance?)

@Hoodat

A simplistic view.  There is plenty of competition available in the US in most areas of the economy to ensure high quality.

When price is the only factor, and has been made so by good marketing, then quality becomes significantly less relevant.  Consumers have been trained to accept poor quality as long as the price is right.   

[driftdiver]

You have to make things, or all the service jobs dry up.

Take cell phones.   A friend of mine in India pays $1 a month for his cell phone with 200 minutes of talk time.   $1 a month

They use the same equipment we use.  They have the same support staff we have. 

The telecom companies have outsourced most of their staff to India.  What happens when nobody has a job to pay their highly inflated rates here in the US?

[Hoodat]

You have to make things, or all the service jobs dry up.

Nope.  Not true. 

If the screen on your Korean-made cell phone cracks, do you get it repaired here or in Korea?
If you purchase a gas compressor from Siemens, do you have it programmed in Germany?
If you purchase a oil platform hull from Norway for duty off the coast of Louisiana, do you have it manned by Norwegians?

[roamer_1]

Nope.  Not true. 

If the screen on your Korean-made cell phone cracks, do you get it repaired here or in Korea?
If you purchase a gas compressor from Siemens, do you have it programmed in Germany?
If you purchase a oil platform hull from Norway for duty off the coast of Louisiana, do you have it manned by Norwegians?

Nice thought, but there is a balance, and the only reason you can survive in any given area, is because there is some sort of manufacturing or ag... Doesn't matter if !you! have work... the entire township will fold right up around you. Middle class income is what pays for the lion's share of those service industries. when that income folds up, so do the services.

[roamer_1]

Take cell phones.   A friend of mine in India pays $1 a month for his cell phone with 200 minutes of talk time.   $1 a month

They use the same equipment we use.  They have the same support staff we have. 

The telecom companies have outsourced most of their staff to India.  What happens when nobody has a job to pay their highly inflated rates here in the US?

There is a point to be made there... and my focus is on whole towns going bust. Even if the econmy s strong, you can't sustain those towns drying up long... Towns going broke mean counties going broke, which means states going broke.

[Hoodat]

Nice thought, but there is a balance, and the only reason you can survive in any given area, is because there is some sort of manufacturing or ag... Doesn't matter if !you! have work... the entire township will fold right up around you. Middle class income is what pays for the lion's share of those service industries. when that income folds up, so do the services.

There are no Siemens compressor manufacturers or oil platform hull manufacturers within two thousand miles of my location.  Yet as a Georgia resident, I get paid to work on both.

Manufacturing makes up 8% of Georgia's total employment.  Your characterization on the importance of it is exaggerated at best.

[driftdiver]

You also have an entrepreneur who is still pouring his profits back into the US economy.  The alternative is that you have nothing.  Both laborers lose their jobs AND the entrepreneur closes up shop.

So why are we talking about manufacturing in the first place?  The US economy is driven by service - not manufacturing.  It has been that way for a very long time.  And there is nothing wrong with it either.  I have a service job, one made possible because of automation.  I work in the industrial automation field.  And I can attest to the hundreds of thousands of good-paying jobs that are born out of the automation field.

@Hoodat
You have an "entrepreneur who is still pouring his profits back into the US economy." but he's not pouring his production costs back in.  So theres a significant percentage that is leaving the country.   Then the manufacturer in China copies his product and starts selling cheap knockoffs to compete with him.   Further eroding his profits.

[roamer_1]

There are no Siemens compressor manufacturers or oil platform hull manufacturers within two thousand miles of my location.  Yet as a Georgia resident, I get paid to work on both.

Manufacturing makes up 8% of Georgia's total employment.  Your characterization on the importance of it is exaggerated at best.

Good for you... but the things that make your own personal life go require people around you to have work too. Hard work and good pay put all the bricks and mortar around you. When that bricks and mortar dries up, the whole town dries up and blows away. It's happening all over the place.

[GrouchoTex]

Nope.  Not true. 

If the screen on your Korean-made cell phone cracks, do you get it repaired here or in Korea?
If you purchase a gas compressor from Siemens, do you have it programmed in Germany?
If you purchase a oil platform hull from Norway for duty off the coast of Louisiana, do you have it manned by Norwegians?

@Hoodat

Funny you should mention gas compressors.
I work for the Stasskol division of Nueman & Esser (out of Germany).
We sell parts to Siemens (Dresser Rand).

We have a small shop in Texas where we make compressor parts (Rings, Packings, etc).
We have 7 employees and we do about 2mil in sales a year (for now).
I can attest that it used to take about 20-25 employees to do the same, 35 years ago, when I started.
Technology has advanced.

I read an article recently that said the US still manufactures as much as it ever has before (dollar-wise), but with only about 25% of the workforce it used to require.
Also, we tend to make more high-end, engineered, things now.

Curious, that I buy steel from a Texas company, but that steel may come from Turkey.
Some of polymers we use to make wear parts can come from Italy, although we buy the molded materials used to make them from Germany (our main facility) or from local vendors.
The cutting tools on our machines? Iscar, from Israel. 

[Hoodat]

Good for you... but the things that make your own personal life go require people around you to have work too. Hard work and good pay put all the bricks and mortar around you. When that bricks and mortar dries up, the whole town dries up and blows away. It's happening all over the place.

Are you saying 'I didn't build this'?

No one is disputing hard work.  No one is disputing bricks and mortars.  We are talking about the importance and necessity of manufacturing jobs within the US and the anti-free-market mandates to prop up those jobs.

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

Good for you... but the things that make your own personal life go require people around you to have work too. Hard work and good pay put all the bricks and mortar around you. When that bricks and mortar dries up, the whole town dries up and blows away. It's happening all over the place.

Why do rural people feel entitled to jobs anymore than urban folks? I swear, rural baby boomers are even more entitled than urban millenials.

You're not entitled to a job any more than anyone else. If you live in a town that is dependent on a specific industry, you have make plans to move or risk the wrath of the market.

Welcome to capitalism.

[Hoodat]

@Hoodat

Funny you should mention gas compressors.
I work for the Stasskol division of Nueman & Esser (out of Germany).
We sell parts to Siemens (Dresser Rand).

We have a small shop in Texas where we make compressor parts (Rings, Packings, etc).
We have 7 employees and we do about 2mil in sales a year (for now).
I can attest that it used to take about 20-25 employees to do the same, 35 years ago, when I started.
Technology has advanced.

I read an article recently that said the US still manufactures as much as it ever has before (dollar-wise), but with only about 25% of the workforce it used to require.
Also, we tend to make more high-end, engineered, things now.

Curious, that I buy steel from a Texas company, but that steel may come from Turkey.
Some of polymers we use to make wear parts can come from Italy, although we buy the molded materials used to make them from Germany (our main facility) or from local vendors.
The cutting tools on our machines? Iscar, from Israel.

And there is not a thing wrong with any of that.  The invisible hand working marvelously.

[Hoodat]

Why do rural people feel entitled to jobs anymore than urban folks? I swear, rural baby boomers are even more entitled than urban millenials.

You're not entitled to a job any more than anyone else. If you live in a town that is dependent on a specific industry, you have make plans to move or risk the wrath of the market.

Welcome to capitalism.

I grew up in a small town where GE, DuPont, and Thiokol were the main manufacturers.  First GE closed.  Then Thiokol.  After I moved away, DuPont shut its doors.  At the time, I had wrongly believed that the closure of DuPont would end the town.  Today, the town continues to thrive.

[driftdiver]

If outsourcing and offshoring are so good for American business why has Chinas economy grown so much while ours doesn't?

[driftdiver]

Why do rural people feel entitled to jobs anymore than urban folks? I swear, rural baby boomers are even more entitled than urban millenials.

You're not entitled to a job any more than anyone else. If you live in a town that is dependent on a specific industry, you have make plans to move or risk the wrath of the market.

Welcome to capitalism.

Probably because they are suffering from decades of economic policy which pushes jobs away from rural America to the urban centers and offshore.  Thats hardly an example of capitalism.

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

Probably because they are suffering from decades of economic policy which pushes jobs away from rural America to the urban centers and offshore.  Thats hardly an example of capitalism.

They are precious snowflakes who want protection from the big bad free market. Sounds like a millenial doesn't it?

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

If outsourcing and offshoring are so good for American business why has Chinas economy grown so much while ours doesn't?

Our economy hasn't grown? We haven't been in recession since 2009 or so, with just a few quarters of negative growth since then.

[driftdiver]

They are precious snowflakes who want protection from the big bad free market. Sounds like a millenial doesn't it?

Hardly, considering the reasons why economic policy is what it is.   People are easier to control in cities.   It isn't a free market when govt policy makes it more difficult to do business in small towns. 

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

  People are easier to control in cities.   

 

Which is why rural folks are begging the government to protect their "jerbs"!

 

[HonestJohn]

Crime?  Thats because almost !% of our population is in jail and another 2% are on probation or parole.  A rate thats much higher than other industrialized countries.

How about drug use?  Its rampant in rural America.

Income?   According to the sources I find our median household income is lower today than it was in the late 90s. 

People from other countries are coming to the US to buy property.  Why?  Because its cheap.  Why is it cheap?  Because people here don't have the money to buy it.

Our rural population has a toxic mix of cultural beliefs that are working to destroy them.

1. Place no value in education. (hard to get a good paying job, or ANY job without that)

2. Overemphasis on family.  So much so that they will not move to get a job.

3. Suspicious of anything new, whether it be a newcomer to the town or a change.  It's hard to get out of poverty if you reject new investors/refuse to solicit for them.

[HonestJohn]

@Hoodat

A simplistic view.  There is plenty of competition available in the US in most areas of the economy to ensure high quality.

When price is the only factor, and has been made so by good marketing, then quality becomes significantly less relevant.  Consumers have been trained to accept poor quality as long as the price is right.

No.

People want the best value for the amount of money they can/want to spend.  Almays will.

The problem is that they value they seek may not be the value you do.

Cars are a great example.  I value handling performance, then engine power, and finally the interior's material quality  Others value cargo capacity, seating capacity, and then vehicle height.

I think they are getting poor value for their money when they buy a Ford Explorer, because I don't want their value points.  And they think I waste my money with a VW GTI or a Mazda RX-8.

[roamer_1]

Are you saying 'I didn't build this'?

No one is disputing hard work.  No one is disputing bricks and mortars.  We are talking about the importance and necessity of manufacturing jobs within the US and the anti-free-market mandates to prop up those jobs.

Not at all. I am saying that rarified high tech jobs are not something that most folks can handle.
Take the loggers here. The government shut off the woods and allowed Canadian wood into the country at crazy low prices. Literally within 5 years, a major industry in our region dried up completely. Largely regulated out of business.

So the loggers were out of work almost entirely. And the cat operators were out of work too - and the road patrols, and whole fleets of dump trucks. And then of course, the mills closed down...  and the jippo mills. All that's left is the plywood mill and a couple paper mills down in Missoula.

There's still some good jobs around... Ag is still pretty strong, and there is some light manufacturing in town. Construction comes and goes. But mostly we're about tourists now. And all those logger families are still scratching hard to make a living, ever since the woods shut down, near twenty years ago... Whole generations without a way forward. 

What pays here now? Government jobs and health industry jobs. one or two tech companies, and insurance. Not the kind of thing a guy in a flannel shirt knows how to do.