Author Topic: Jeff Sessions Announces Justice Department Will Increase Asset Forfeiture  (Read 2000 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline EasyAce

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,385
  • Gender: Male
  • RIP Blue, 2012-2020---my big, gentle friend.
Must be a tough job.  6 months in and Sessions has already started Crack.
Sessions said from the word go he still believed in asset forfeiture. He may have been cracked going in. ;)


"The question of who is right is a small one, indeed, beside the question of what is right."---Albert Jay Nock.

Fake news---news you don't like or don't want to hear.

Offline driftdiver

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,897
  • Gender: Male
  • I could eat it raw but why when I have fire
Sessions said from the word go he still believed in asset forfeiture. He may have been cracked going in. ;)

It depends, if someone is convicted of a crime I'm pretty much ok with seizing assets acquired from the crime.    Lets say a sports car was purchased with drug money.   Take the car, sell it, and use the money to pay the costs of the law enforcement or heaven forbid restitution to the victims.   That doesn't mean their legal defense  (aka party) funds.

What I have a real problem with is when they seize money & property based solely on suspicion and the people have to prove their innocence.
Fools mock, tongues wag, babies cry and goats bleat.

Offline catfish1957

  • Laken Riley.... Say her Name. And to every past and future democrat voter- Her blood is on your hands too!!!
  • Political Researcher
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,354
  • Gender: Male
It depends, if someone is convicted of a crime I'm pretty much ok with seizing assets acquired from the crime.    Lets say a sports car was purchased with drug money.   Take the car, sell it, and use the money to pay the costs of the law enforcement or heaven forbid restitution to the victims.   That doesn't mean their legal defense  (aka party) funds.

What I have a real problem with is when they seize money & property based solely on suspicion and the people have to prove their innocence.

In the loosest interpretation, speeding is a crime.   I sure don't want cops with money changers cruising the highways.
I display the Confederate Battle Flag in honor of my great great great grandfathers who spilled blood at Wilson's Creek and Shiloh.  5 others served in the WBTS with honor too.

Offline EasyAce

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,385
  • Gender: Male
  • RIP Blue, 2012-2020---my big, gentle friend.
It depends, if someone is convicted of a crime I'm pretty much ok with seizing assets acquired from the crime.    Lets say a sports car was purchased with drug money.   Take the car, sell it, and use the money to pay the costs of the law enforcement or heaven forbid restitution to the victims.   That doesn't mean their legal defense  (aka party) funds.

What I have a real problem with is when they seize money & property based solely on suspicion and the people have to prove their innocence.
I don't think anyone would have a problem with seizing profits from the crime when a preponderance of the evidence in
a case delivers a guilty verdict. Merely being arrested isn't such evidence. Suspicion isn't evidence. And like I mentioned
earlier, I think, a verdict of not guilty seems not to mean a now-acquitted suspect gets his or her property back without
a fight that often lasts longer than the original case did.


"The question of who is right is a small one, indeed, beside the question of what is right."---Albert Jay Nock.

Fake news---news you don't like or don't want to hear.

Offline Sanguine

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 35,986
  • Gender: Female
  • Ex-member
Being able to keep your own stuff is one of the most basic of God-given rights.

Offline the_doc

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,171
And this was the core reason I could not support Sessions as AG.

This is no minor thing.

It is big government run amok violating the basic principles of our constitution.

I think this whole mess makes Sessions a pretty disgusting AG--despite most conservatives being thrilled with his appointment by Trump. 

Offline driftdiver

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,897
  • Gender: Male
  • I could eat it raw but why when I have fire
I don't think anyone would have a problem with seizing profits from the crime when a preponderance of the evidence in
a case delivers a guilty verdict. Merely being arrested isn't such evidence. Suspicion isn't evidence. And like I mentioned
earlier, I think, a verdict of not guilty seems not to mean a now-acquitted suspect gets his or her property back without
a fight that often lasts longer than the original case did.

@EasyAce
They don't even have to file charges.  If they catch you with say $4,600 in cash they can seize it.   To get it back you have to prove the money was earned legally and that you paid taxes on it.  They also tend to change the rules at will from what I've read. 

If they like your boat and the find a single marijuana seed on it they can seize it.  Cars, trucks and RVs are the same.   Anything they want.  Oh and in many cases the department gets to keep most of the money. 
Fools mock, tongues wag, babies cry and goats bleat.

Offline INVAR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11,961
  • Gender: Male
  • Dread To Tread
    • Sword At The Ready
@EasyAce
They don't even have to file charges.  If they catch you with say $4,600 in cash they can seize it.   To get it back you have to prove the money was earned legally and that you paid taxes on it.  They also tend to change the rules at will from what I've read. 

This is exactly correct.  Folks are beginning to refer to Law Enforcement as Highwaymen.


If they like your boat and the find a single marijuana seed on it they can seize it.  Cars, trucks and RVs are the same.   Anything they want.  Oh and in many cases the department gets to keep most of the money.

Proof to back up your statement:

HOW CIVIL FORFEITURE LAWS ARE COSTING INNOCENT PEOPLE THEIR HOMES

New Front in Civil Forfeiture: Authorities Get Devices to Seize Funds Loaded to Prepaid Cards

Aggressive police take hundreds of millions of dollars from motorists not charged with crimes

The Injustice of Civil-Asset Forfeiture - The latest victim: a 22-year-old who set off to start a new life with $16,000 to his name, only to have it all seized by the DEA.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2017, 05:27:54 pm by INVAR »
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline EasyAce

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,385
  • Gender: Male
  • RIP Blue, 2012-2020---my big, gentle friend.
@EasyAce
They don't even have to file charges.  If they catch you with say $4,600 in cash they can seize it.   To get it back you have to prove the money was earned legally and that you paid taxes on it.  They also tend to change the rules at will from what I've read. 
I've heard the same thing about rule changing. Beyond that, not only do you have to prove you earned the money
legally, it can take you as long as five years to get any of it back---if at all.

If they like your boat and the find a single marijuana seed on it they can seize it.  Cars, trucks and RVs are the same.   Anything they want.  Oh and in many cases the department gets to keep most of the money.
And people wonder why I call government the nation's largest organised crime family. ;)


"The question of who is right is a small one, indeed, beside the question of what is right."---Albert Jay Nock.

Fake news---news you don't like or don't want to hear.

Offline Weird Tolkienish Figure

  • Technical
  • *****
  • Posts: 18,131
I can't tell if Session is the most corrupt or just the stupidest AG we have ever had. His advancing of issues like this is appalling. Time for congress to get a set of balls and tell Sessions this phony bull**** seizing assets without due process ends now.

 :amen:

Offline Smokin Joe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 56,397
  • I was a "conspiracy theorist". Now I'm just right.
It depends, if someone is convicted of a crime I'm pretty much ok with seizing assets acquired from the crime.    Lets say a sports car was purchased with drug money.   Take the car, sell it, and use the money to pay the costs of the law enforcement or heaven forbid restitution to the victims.   That doesn't mean their legal defense  (aka party) funds.

What I have a real problem with is when they seize money & property based solely on suspicion and the people have to prove their innocence.
Taking the assets of someone (life, liberty, or property) of someone duly convicted of a crime and falling within the penalties for that crime is one thing, and constitutional.

Unfortunately, with civil asset forfeiture, the object itself is the criminal, just by its presence. It isn't even a question of proving individual innocence, it is a question of having your assets taken and you not even being charged with a crime--the asset is claimed to be there because it is supposedly the product of criminal activity. If you seem like someone who is going to squawk, the crime part is easy enough for the unscrupulous to arrange. ('Oh, look at the little baggie we 'found' under the seat!'--easy to palm for the camera, and 'discover', after the dog sits down, of course--something mine will do on a hand signal, no word spoken, and easy enough to do obscured form the cameras.)

That denies the person being robbed of a platform to prove innocence and forces them to sue to get their assets back, or provides leverage in the event of complaint to take the vehicle, too (and all in it) while the accused faces felony drug charges. 

The whole system just begs for organized corruption, and the eventual result will look like the  Montana Vigilantes, only they only had one jurisdiction to cover. That would prompt a Federal response, and similar from LEOs who were not 'dirty', because of the way it would be portrayed and end up in a street war between police and the populace--one of the reasons dirty cops are seen as the lowest of the low and integrity is supposed to be paramount.

Ripping the Constitutional foundations of the Due Process requirement from underneath that thin blue line at any level--Federal 5th Amendment protections, 4th Amendment protections and at the State level 14th Amendment protections against the loss of life, liberty, or property without Due Process, by making the very actions Due Process is supposed to protect against part of that Due Process is wholly contrary to the spirit of those unalienable rights to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.

As for proving innocence, when the burden of proof of guilt should reside on the State, if there are no criminal charges made, there is no innocence to prove. If the level of robbery is kept low enough (below a few thousand at a pop), there cannot be an economically viable recovery without some sort of award for damages, damages which would also have to be proven in court, unless someone can find good representation pro bono. We have the best justice system money can buy, and usually, you get what you pay for, so the odds of that are far too slim unless there is a name attorney out there hunting for a case to build reputation on.

What Sessions has proposed is expanding the legalized and unconstitutional theft of property by LEOs who are so inclined, effectively sanctioning the largest group of armed highwaymen on the planet, anyone behind a badge.
While I will be the first to state that not all police, police or sheriff's departments, or even Federal LEOs will engage in such activity, it will take only a handful of such to completely alienate the Law Enforcement community from the people, and the level of enmity will go up, fostered where there was none, elevated where there was--a level that has been approaching limited warfare in some places already. I see this as a foolish move on Sessions part, unless he is trying to encourage corruption in law enforcement and blood in the streets.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2017, 12:29:50 am by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline ABX

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 900
  • Words full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
It depends, if someone is convicted of a crime I'm pretty much ok with seizing assets acquired from the crime.    Lets say a sports car was purchased with drug money.   Take the car, sell it, and use the money to pay the costs of the law enforcement or heaven forbid restitution to the victims.   That doesn't mean their legal defense  (aka party) funds.

What I have a real problem with is when they seize money & property based solely on suspicion and the people have to prove their innocence.

The asset forfeiture he is vocal about requires no conviction or even charges be filed. It is one of the most blatant violations of the Constitution.

Offline Smokin Joe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 56,397
  • I was a "conspiracy theorist". Now I'm just right.
@EasyAce
They don't even have to file charges.  If they catch you with say $4,600 in cash they can seize it.   To get it back you have to prove the money was earned legally and that you paid taxes on it.  They also tend to change the rules at will from what I've read. 

If they like your boat and the find a single marijuana seed on it they can seize it.  Cars, trucks and RVs are the same.   Anything they want.  Oh and in many cases the department gets to keep most of the money.
Watch any of the 'reality' cop shows on TV and see how small the packets involved in a felony possession of drugs is. Not much bigger than a fingernail, and something which could be palmed and swept out from under a seat it was never under with a hand, right on camera, a trivial 'magic trick', but enough to haul a person off in irons and take their stuff.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2017, 12:30:33 am by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline endicom

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,113
And people wonder why I call government the nation's largest organised crime family. ;)


It was a sad day for organized crime when its members realized that public office is the best racket.

It would be interesting to see how many office holders have a criminal family background. They certainly tend to act like racketeers.



Offline Smokin Joe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 56,397
  • I was a "conspiracy theorist". Now I'm just right.

It was a sad day for organized crime when its members realized that public office is the best racket.

It would be interesting to see how many office holders have a criminal family background. They certainly tend to act like racketeers.
:silly:
Background? What background?
Quote
"There is no evidence which exists..."
Janet Reno
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline INVAR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11,961
  • Gender: Male
  • Dread To Tread
    • Sword At The Ready
it is a question of having your assets taken and you not even being charged with a crime--the asset is claimed to be there because it is supposedly the product of criminal activity.

Just having cash on you is now designated to be "proof" that a criminal drug act is being committed.   Try flying with anything more than a $1,000 on you and experience an interrogation that might seem more appropriate in East Germany.

The whole system just begs for organized corruption,

Already there at the local levels.  The Feds now want their cut and to oversee a more 'direct' route of redistributing wealth.


Ripping the Constitutional foundations of the Due Process requirement from underneath that thin blue line at any level--Federal 5th Amendment protections, 4th Amendment protections and at the State level 14th Amendment protections against the loss of life, liberty, or property without Due Process, by making the very actions Due Process is supposed to protect against part of that Due Process is wholly contrary to the spirit of those unalienable rights to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.

Where have you been?  As I experienced in our personal dealing with crooked cops who assaulted two of my daughters in their own home without a warrant and made up bogus assault charges on them after beating the piss out of them - the FACTS and REALITY is that the Constitution is null and void.  As I was repeatedly told by my daughters' Counselor - they are guilty and must prove their innocence.  That is the reality.  Juries will take the word of cops over us civilians even when all the video and audio evidence magically *disappears*. Dare bring up Constitutional violations - Counsel laughs and says that is not permitted at the local level and if we insist - the charges will increase and plea deals will be less.   Unless you are independently wealthy - you or yours will go to prison unless you an procure a great attorney.

Asset Forfeiture takes the quaint and false notion we live in a Constitution Republic to a whole new level of irrelevance.

And still we will think we are "free" and have the "Constitution" to protect us because we are become accustomed to evil, because those evils are sufferable.


As for proving innocence, when the burden of proof of guilt should reside on the State, if there are no criminal charges made, there is no innocence to prove.

As the attorney told us point-blank - that quaint notion of America no longer exists.  The reality is - in our justice system - unless you got lots of bucks to play, you have to prove your innocence because the moment you walk into a courtroom - everyone in there including the jury sees you as guilty.  That is the reality, ESPECIALLY when it is the word of law enforcement against you.

And Law Enforcement knows this.

Which is why Asset Forfeiture is such a lucrative industry for them.  There is no recourse for a citizen and you will likely do prison if you dare challenge what was done to you.  Sessions just made it all legal in all 50 states.

We have the best justice system money can buy, and usually, you get what you pay for, so the odds of that are far too slim unless there is a name attorney out there hunting for a case to build reputation on.

BINGO.  Almost word-for-word what my kids' attorney told us.  THAT is the reality.

The Constitution is already null and void.  We just pay lip service to it.

What Sessions has proposed is expanding the legalized and unconstitutional theft of property by LEOs who are so inclined, effectively sanctioning the largest group of armed highwaymen on the planet, anyone behind a badge.

Exactly.

Goes for all the armed Alphabets too.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775