Author Topic: Why replacing Obamacare is so hard: It’s fundamentally conservative - Craig Garthwaite, Washington Post  (Read 7897 times)

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Offline INVAR

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If this were another forum, I might understand, but this is TBR.

Are we all now just "better" Democrats/Liberals, the "we do big Government better than they do" crowd?

That is what now exists as the Republican Party or GOP.  Yes.  They think and even admit that their philosophy is to do big government better and more fair than the Marxist Left.

That is their new slogan if one listens to what they say about why they cannot do what they promised.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Kellogg is the company that, with their partner Kellogg Foundation, is about as liberal as can be.

Does not surprise me whatsoever to hear that from a representative from them.

Kellogg company is in the toilet when competitors prosper.

Just like Target.
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline Smokin Joe

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Old school conservatism was different from TEA party conservatism.    Old school conservatism recognizes the role that sound public policy can play in creating the conditions for markets to flourish.   Think Jack Kemp and Ronald Reagan.   TEA party conservatism is essentially just "leave me the hell alone" conservatism.   It is pro-individual and anti-community, and in that sense is essentially nihilistic.   At least that's my opinion.
Because Ron Bailey said it so well, I'll just quote him:
Quote
In George Orwell’s devastating critique of totalitarianism, “1984”, one of the party workers has been given the job of culling the dictionary. The strategy is to make ‘thoughtcrime’ impossible by the removal of words that describe things forbidden by the party. Words like ‘freedom’ and ‘rebellion’. If there are no words then there will be no thoughts, or so the theory goes. As he removes the words the party worker says the words at the head of this blog.

   
Quote
“It’s a beautiful things, the destruction of words.”

That has been in progress for a while now, with the progressive newspeak of identity politics and victimhood walking hand in hand over the crumpled and tortured remains of the English language.
When the Founders penned the phrase, "...among them Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness," I doubt their meaning would be recognizable in the carnage of Roe v Wade, the invasive tendrils of government, or the libertine behaviour that wreaks misery that is presented with a smiling face in the media, the camera angled away from the flood of tears that underlie it.

Virtuous behaviour is its own reward, but also avoids much of the misery. Old school Conservatism contained TEA Party conservatism, in that a government that keeps its fingers out of my wallet leaves me the means to do good. "Charity" performed at gunpoint is hardly charity, but coercion. One which impoverishes me with the likes of Obamacare or penalty, taxes me to give someone else a phone, demands an annual tribute for me to 'own' my land, yet gives that money away to their cronies is every bit in the way of those fundamentals of Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. 

One of the most devious tricks perpetrated by the media (and we know whose side they are on), has been to hyphenate Conservatives, equally as effective at causing division as the hyphenation of Americans, it has started a game of identity politics among even Conservatives, and at the same time allowed those who may agree only on a narrow set of issues to claim they are conservative. Whether neo-paleo-so-crunchy-con or not , the same basic principles should apply to all. Otherwise, you aren't.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline INVAR

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I'm advocating to fix the ACA,  to bend it in a more conservative direction

Pure stupidity.

ObamaCare was designed and written to do only one thing: collapse and destroy the existing health insurance market to pave the way for Single Payer.

There is no bending pure Socialism into a Conservative direction because the two are mutually exclusive to one another and antithetical to the other's existence.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

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In a word, no, it's not. 

Offline Smokin Joe

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In a word, no, it's not.
Exactly, substitution of one unconstitutional program for another unconstitutional program isn't Conservative at all.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

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Pure stupidity.

ObamaCare was designed and written to do only one thing: collapse and destroy the existing health insurance market to pave the way for Single Payer.

There is no bending pure Socialism into a Conservative direction because the two are mutually exclusive to one another and antithetical to the other's existence.

He wouldn't recognize true conservatism if it hit him in the face.  He is 100% all about fighting against conservatism, though he does try to steal the label and place it on liberalism a lot.

Offline RoosGirl

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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Reagan_Speaks_Out_Against_Socialized_Medicine

"Reagan says that "Government has invaded the free precincts of private citizens," stating that the U.S. government owns "1/5 of the total industrial capacity of the United States." Reagan says "One of the traditional methods of imposing statism or socialism on a people has been by way of medicine. It’s very easy to disguise a medical program as a humanitarian project, most people are a little reluctant to oppose anything that suggests medical care for people who possibly can’t afford it." Reagan cites the failure of presidentHarry Truman's national health insuranceproposal as evidence of the American people's rejection of socialized medicine.

Reagan describes Representative Aime Forand as having introduced a bill which would institute "compulsory health insurance" for all people of social security age. Forand is quoted as having said, “If we can only break through and get our foot inside the door, then we can extend the program after that." Forand is likened to labor union leader Walter Reuther, who is quoted as having said, "It’s no secret that the United Automobile Workers is officially on record of backing a program of national health insurance." The Forand bill is described as being praised by socialists: "They say once the Forand bill is passed this nation will be provided with a mechanism for socialized medicine capable of indefinite expansion in every direction until it includes the entire population. Now we can’t say we haven’t been warned.""


Offline jmyrlefuller

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This doesn't go nearly far enough, particularly not if you are still putting pre-existings into the regular pool and forcing cadillac plans on Americans.
The funny thing about that is that if you pull pre-existings/high-cost patients out of the regular pool (which is a necessity if it is to operate as a true insurance system), there are many here who will scream about any form of viable coverage for the pre-existings, which by necessity would require some sort of outside funding, being a government handout.

We all know insurance coverage of pre-existing conditions is a recipe for financial disaster. No one wants those types in the insurance pool. Yet the cost to cover the medical expenses of those people is staggering. I posted a story a while back about the $12,000,000 a year hemophiliac who personally bankrupted Iowa's insurance exchanges (and you can bet he's not paying taxes on that in-kind income, but that's another topic altogether). Someone is eventually going to have to pay for it—unless, that is, they die.
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Online Free Vulcan

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The funny thing about that is that if you pull pre-existings/high-cost patients out of the regular pool (which is a necessity if it is to operate as a true insurance system), there are many here who will scream about any form of viable coverage for the pre-existings, which by necessity would require some sort of outside funding, being a government handout.

We all know insurance coverage of pre-existing conditions is a recipe for financial disaster. No one wants those types in the insurance pool. Yet the cost to cover the medical expenses of those people is staggering. I posted a story a while back about the $12,000,000 a year hemophiliac who personally bankrupted Iowa's insurance exchanges (and you can bet he's not paying taxes on that in-kind income, but that's another topic altogether). Someone is eventually going to have to pay for it—unless, that is, they die.

One thing we could do is allow pre-tax and tax credits for an insurance company taking pre-existings and subsidizing their premium. You could do this with a policy sold across state lines.  Also give tax credits to the purchaser, and make all that health care spending pretax.   Tack an HSA onto it pre tax or even with tax credits. Yes it's all double dipping but who cares? The problem is the FedGov doesn't want give up that money.

You could even allow exclusions to reduce it ever further and have the pre-existing treated by Medicare. The govt is also going to have to accept that some are not going to fit into the insurance pool and will have to be on Medicare.

As a compromise with liberals, we could have those who can't or won't buy insurance pay a higher Medicare tax equivalent to an insurance premium to keep it properly funded. But we need to keep the insurance pools clean and voluntary.
The Republic is lost.

Offline Smokin Joe

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One thing we could do is allow pre-tax and tax credits for an insurance company taking pre-existings and subsidizing their premium. You could do this with a policy sold across state lines.  Also give tax credits to the purchaser, and make all that health care spending pretax.   Tack an HSA onto it pre tax or even with tax credits. Yes it's all double dipping but who cares? The problem is the FedGov doesn't want give up that money.

You could even allow exclusions to reduce it ever further and have the pre-existing treated by Medicare. The govt is also going to have to accept that some are not going to fit into the insurance pool and will have to be on Medicare.

As a compromise with liberals, we could have those who can't or won't buy insurance pay a higher Medicare tax equivalent to an insurance premium to keep it properly funded. But we need to keep the insurance pools clean and voluntary.
Without discussing hemophilia, cancer, or dozens of other expensive conditions, there is already a trillion dollar bill coming in for HIV/AIDS infected (currently roughly 1.3 million, at a cost per patient of 600-750K over the next 25 years). 

Now you want people to who can't afford insurance because of the mandates present now, to pay taxes out of their paychecks to pay for people who have made (and continue to make) bad decisions (something being promoted daily), and now the system has gone full mark of the beast. Who knew it was an insurance company?
Work for cash, barter, or starve., if you're on the low end of the wage spectrum.  If people can't afford health INSURANCE now, how is taxing them more going to fix that?

No new taxes (Still waiting for THAT promise to happen, GHWB).
Get the Government out, except to provide for the 'wards of the state'.

This crap didn't really happen until the civil union folks found out their partner with 'the thins' couldn't get coverage under their ersatz spouses' health plan at work (preexisting condition), then the Dems came looking for everyone to pick up the tab.

We're more in danger of people dying in the streets than ever because the government is fixing something that supposedly fixed something that wasn't broke.

There is no Constitutional authorization for the Federal Government to be messing around with health insurance/care, with the exception of providing for wounded and disabled veterans, and Indian Tribes per Treaty.

Anyone familiar with those systems would have (and did) hold them up as all the more reason the FedGov should stay out of mainstream health care.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2017, 11:21:52 pm by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

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Without discussing hemophilia, cancer, or dozens of other expensive conditions, there is already a trillion dollar bill coming in for HIV/AIDS infected (currently roughly 1.3 million, at a cost per patient of 600-750K over the next 25 years). 

Now you want people to who can't afford insurance because of the mandates present now, to pay taxes out of their paychecks to pay for people who have made (and continue to make) bad decisions (something being promoted daily), and now the system has gone full mark of the beast. Who knew it was an insurance company?
Work for cash, barter, or starve., if you're on the low end of the wage spectrum.  If people can't afford health INSURANCE now, how is taxing them more going to fix that?

No new taxes (Still waiting for THAT promise to happen, GHWB).
Get the Government out, except to provide for the 'wards of the state'.

This crap didn't really happen until the civil union folks found out their partner with 'the thins' couldn't get coverage under their ersatz spouses' health plan at work (preexisting condition), then the Dems came looking for everyone to pick up the tab.

We're more in danger of people dying in the streets than ever because the government is fixing something that supposedly fixed something that wasn't broke.

There is no Constitutional authorization for the Federal Government to be messing around with health insurance/care, with the exception of providing for wounded and disabled veterans, and Indian Tribes per Treaty.

Anyone familiar with those systems would have (and did) hold them up as all the more reason the FedGov should stay out of mainstream health care.

True, but, if Congress is so hell bent on insuring these people, then they need to do it without burdening the insurance market. It wouldn't be the way I'd do it, but with the GOP wanting so much to capitulate to the liberals, that's where I'd rather do it than make others pay for people's health care cost by jacking their premiums.

I don't know how else to deal with pre-existings and others, like young people, who won't get insurance.
The Republic is lost.

Offline ABX

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Using government to do charity is not the purpose of government, and robs the individual from their personal obligation to do charity themselves and make provisions for their dependents.  They will simply divest themselves of the responsibility and shove it on the shoulders of the taxpayers.

It is past time to abolish the forms to which we have become accustomed.


I am amazed at how many people on this forum are discounting this notion.

It is one of the most basic conservative tenets!

I knew that things have been shifting leftward recently, but this far?

The constitution spells out the role of the Federal Government, and it has nothing to do with us sending them money to redistribute as they deem appropriate.


+1

Offline rodamala

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Our resident Leftist will be here in the morning to trumpet this Communist claptrap too.

Pick the "Old school Republican" in this picture...



The other one is Jazzhead.




Offline Smokin Joe

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True, but, if Congress is so hell bent on insuring these people, then they need to do it without burdening the insurance market. It wouldn't be the way I'd do it, but with the GOP wanting so much to capitulate to the liberals, that's where I'd rather do it than make others pay for people's health care cost by jacking their premiums.

I don't know how else to deal with pre-existings and others, like young people, who won't get insurance.
You're a young people. Your take home is about 1400 a month. Exchanges want more than that for insurance. It isn't a 'won't', it's a 'can't'. Not and eat, too.

You're a young couple. Let's say you're bringing in 60K gross, 50K after taxes, 1K per month rent, 1K between utilities and car payments/insurance. Leaves 26K, not counting clothes, food, utilities, etc. The 20K in insurance premiums aren't going to leave much to eat on. You make too much for a subsidy, to little to afford Cadillac insurance. You would have likely bought a lesser major medical plan, but they're gone with the Obama.

Hmmmmm. Do you dress well, eat decent food go to the dentist out of pocket, keep those disposable contacts coming, or do you pay for insurance and be broke at every turn? You take your chances.

It isn't obstinacy, it's a good gamble, even if some don't come out winners.

Get the plans out of lala land and the rates out of the stratosphere, to where young people are more afraid of losing what they have than having nothing to lose, and participation will pick up.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis


Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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There is no justification in proclaiming a conservative bent on Obamacare.

Simply put, it is beyond the Conservative interpretation of the Constitution.

Period.
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline INVAR

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There is no justification in proclaiming a conservative bent on Obamacare.

Simply put, it is beyond the Conservative interpretation of the Constitution.

Period.

Trying to sell us on the idea that Communist Health Insurance (AKA: ObamaCare) is "fundamentally Conservative" is like attempting to sell fundamentalist Christians on the idea that Jesus himself was a homosexual.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline RoosGirl

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Trying to sell us on the idea that Communist Health Insurance (AKA: ObamaCare) is "fundamentally Conservative" is like attempting to sell fundamentalist Christians on the idea that Jesus himself was a homosexual.

Well, he was 33 when he died and had never married, so it's not really that far fetched.  *****rollingeyes*****

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You're a young people. Your take home is about 1400 a month. Exchanges want more than that for insurance. It isn't a 'won't', it's a 'can't'. Not and eat, too.

You're a young couple. Let's say you're bringing in 60K gross, 50K after taxes, 1K per month rent, 1K between utilities and car payments/insurance. Leaves 26K, not counting clothes, food, utilities, etc. The 20K in insurance premiums aren't going to leave much to eat on. You make too much for a subsidy, to little to afford Cadillac insurance. You would have likely bought a lesser major medical plan, but they're gone with the Obama.

Hmmmmm. Do you dress well, eat decent food go to the dentist out of pocket, keep those disposable contacts coming, or do you pay for insurance and be broke at every turn? You take your chances.

It isn't obstinacy, it's a good gamble, even if some don't come out winners.

Get the plans out of lala land and the rates out of the stratosphere, to where young people are more afraid of losing what they have than having nothing to lose, and participation will pick up.

Well if we put the insurance market back to the way it was plus improvements, for the most part alot of people will come back.

The problem is that there will be people who won't get insurance and a number who can't. Which makes it a political wedge for the media and the Dems to drive. Somehow that's what the GOP has to deal with. And I don't think there are alot of good answers, and the GOP doesn't seem to want to find them.
The Republic is lost.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Well if we put the insurance market back to the way it was plus improvements, for the most part alot of people will come back.

The problem is that there will be people who won't get insurance and a number who can't. Which makes it a political wedge for the media and the Dems to drive. Somehow that's what the GOP has to deal with. And I don't think there are alot of good answers, and the GOP doesn't seem to want to find them.
The problem is that the Dems drove that wedge into the heart of the middle class. The same people who start and run small businesses which occasionally become large businesses, who make the kinds of community donations which move things along and improve everyone's lot. When that group hurts, everyone (except for those insulated by special consideration under the law or enough money) hurts.

The Dems set out to (in keeping with the Communist Manifesto) eliminate the middle class by forcing them to be poor, and attacking their very means of being middle class--small business. The damage has been widespread, and the attack effective. They are trying to force more people onto their plantation, only these aren't the folks who will welcome it, but who will bear a burden of shame and resentment for what has been done TO them, not for them.
If the GOP doesn't set this right, eliminate the damaging provisions of Obamacare, they, too will own this.

I have said more than once if America has another 'revolution', this will look more like The Terror than 1776. The Democrats laid the brick, the GOP is tuck pointing the foundations of that now, instead of tearing them apart.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline INVAR

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I have said more than once if America has another 'revolution', this will look more like The Terror than 1776. The Democrats laid the brick, the GOP is tuck pointing the foundations of that now, instead of tearing them apart.

Anyone who has studied that time in history should recognize the frightening fact that this is exactly where we have arrived.

France in the 1790s is where Marx and Engels conceived the very blueprint for Socialism and Communism's need for bloody revolution and the necessity to eradicate the Bourgeoisie via class and race warfare.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline Smokin Joe

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Anyone who has studied that time in history should recognize the frightening fact that this is exactly where we have arrived.

France in the 1790s is where Marx and Engels conceived the very blueprint for Socialism and Communism's need for bloody revolution and the necessity to eradicate the Bourgeoisie via class and race warfare.
The American Middle class has two things the French did not. Numbers, and arms.

I believe we are resilient enough to even endure enough of the economic strictures that we will survive in numbers which will require forcible elimination, if they dare to try. (Bill Ayres' 25 million who will not be reeducated have grown). If that were to happen, the outcome would make the War Between the States look like a schoolyard knuckle duster.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Jazzhead

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There is no justification in proclaiming a conservative bent on Obamacare.

Simply put, it is beyond the Conservative interpretation of the Constitution.

Period.

ObamaCare isn't conservative.   It wreaks too much havoc with private markets and consumer choice for that.   In many places,  it's devolved so there's only one insurer in the market.    That's not competition,  that's not conservative.

It's roots are conservative, in the sense that it addresses the free rider issue by taxing those who do not participate in the insurance marketplace,  thereby expanding the risk pool sufficiently to (theoretically) make community rating coverage affordable.   There are fewer folks with "pre-existing" conditions since more people are part of the pool in the first place.   The costliest folks' expenses are spread among a wider group.  Remember, of course,  that the idea of individual mandates to achieve affordable community rating coverage has always been proposed in the context of the alternative of single payer.  The conservative rationale of the individual mandate has always been to preserve private markets and avoid single payer.   

But the ACA goes about it all wrong - principally, in my view,  by forcing the young to subsidize the old (effectively driving those healthier lives out of the pool),  and by eliminating competition with respect to the scope of coverage.   The only policies in the marketplace are gold-plated, with competition coming in the form of deductibles/copays and the skinny-ness of provider networks.

Yes,  the ACA can be reformed in a more conservative direction, as both the House and Senate bills attempt to do.   But the ship has sailed with respect to scrapping it altogether, and returning to the bad old days when folks with preexisting conditions had no access to coverage,  and imposed their costs on hospitals.   Some have proposed the alternative of high risk pools for the most expensive lives,  or slicing off that population and simply providing them with Medicare.  Such approaches also have merit,  so long as those outside the pools have access to affordable coverage that fits their needs, and effective penalties exist for the free riders.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2017, 11:09:36 am by Jazzhead »
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Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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But the ship has sailed with respect to scrapping it altogether, and returning to the bad old days when folks with preexisting conditions had no access to coverage,  and imposed their costs on hospitals.
You really do not know what the term "insurance" means, do you?  Where do you read one must insure 'pre-existing'?
Quote
in·sur·ance

1.a practice or arrangement by which a company or government agency provides a guarantee of compensation for specified loss, damage, illness, or death in return for payment of a premium.
"many new borrowers take out insurance against unemployment or sickness"
synonyms:   indemnity, indemnification, assurance, (financial) protection, security, coverage
"insurance for his new car"
2.a thing providing protection against a possible eventuality.
"adherence to high personal standards of conduct is excellent insurance against personal problems"
synonyms:   protection, defense, safeguard, security, hedge, precaution, provision, surety; More
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington