A Plasma Rocket Engine May Get Us To Mars In 40 Days (Elon Musk, Are You Listening?)

[kevindavis007]

Born the son of Chinese and Costa Rican parents and with just $50 in his pocket, Franklin Chang Diaz came to the U.S. to do his undergraduate studies at the University of Connecticut and later, his graduate work at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. At the time, the 18-year-old had no idea that he would ever fly in space, let alone set a world mark for it. He is now co-record holder for the number of visits to the International Space Station -- seven Space Shuttle flights from 1986 to 2002 -- tied with Jerry Ross.


If that isn't enough Chang Diaz, retired from NASA since 2005, works at his Houston, TX-based Ad Astra Rocket Co. developing a revolutionary plasma engine. In his new book, "To Mars and Beyond, Fast" (Springer Books, June 2017, co-written with Erik Seedhouse) Chang Diaz discusses the high concept in layman's terms. Theoretically, the engine could cut time for manned missions to Mars to as little as 39 days versus the eight months it would take using today’s chemical rockets. NASA has shown interest. In 2015, it gave Chang Diaz a three-year, $9-million development contract.


"A rocket engine is a canister holding high-pressure gas," Chang Diaz, 67, explains. "When you open a hole at one end, the gas squirts out and the rocket goes the other way. The hotter the stuff in the canister, the higher the speed it escapes and the faster the rocket goes. But if it’s too hot, it melts the canister."


So what do you do to counter that? "When gas gets above 10,000 degrees, it changes to plasma -- an electrically charged soup of particles. And these particles can be held together by a magnetic field. The magnetic field becomes the canister, and there is no limit to how hot you can make the plasma."


As for the added speed needed to reach Mars in 39 days, Chang Diaz references the Apollo astronauts who, on their trips to the moon, hit a maximum of about seven miles per second. "Remember, you are accelerating the first half of the journey -- the other half you’re slowing so you will reach Mars but not pass it," says Chang Diaz. "The top speed with respect to the sun would be about 32 mps. But that requires a nuclear power source to heat the plasma to the proper temperature."


Read More: http://www.isn-news.net/2017/07/a-plasma-rocket-engine-may-get-us-to.html

[kevindavis007]

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[Elderberry]

Space.com 3/5/2010

I need more power!

A mission trajectory study estimated that a VASIMR-powered spacecraft could reach the red planet within 40 days if it had a 200 megawatt power source. That's 1,000 times more power than what the current VASIMR prototype will use, although Ad Astra says that VASIMR can scale up to higher power sources.

The real problem rests with current limitations in space power sources. Glover estimates that the Mars mission scenario would need a power source that can produce one kilowatt (kW) of power per kilogram (kg) of mass, or else the spacecraft could never reach the speeds required for a quick trip.

https://www.space.com/8009-rocket-engine-reach-mars-40-days.html

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[kevindavis007]

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[Joe Wooten]

https://www.space.com/8009-rocket-engine-reach-mars-40-days.html

A 200 MW nuke power plant currently weighs more than the biggest booster available can handle. In fact a Saturn 5 could not handle it. The proposed Hyperion reactor would weigh in at 15 tons and produced 30 MWe. Scaling it up to 200 MWe would probably jack that up to 75 tons, and that's just for the reactor. the power conversion block would probably weigh at least that much itself. The you have to add in the fuel, water coolant (+ a large reserve), control systems, and the habitable portions, you are looking at 400 to 500 tons easily. The volumetric size dictates at least 10 launches of a heavy lift booster would be needed to put the pieces in LEO, then you have to factor in the living quarters and other requirements for the construction crew, which probably would suck up at least triple the number of heavy lift launches the nuke power plant would. That would have to be built first before any nuke components ever went up.

You're talking some serious money that is just currently not available at this time for space.

[Suppressed]

I can see our first interstellar launch getting passed by a later, faster ship.  But I don't think we'll have that happen with Mars. 

[kevindavis007]

A 200 MW nuke power plant currently weighs more than the biggest booster available can handle. In fact a Saturn 5 could not handle it. The proposed Hyperion reactor would weigh in at 15 tons and produced 30 MWe. Scaling it up to 200 MWe would probably jack that up to 75 tons, and that's just for the reactor. the power conversion block would probably weigh at least that much itself. The you have to add in the fuel, water coolant (+ a large reserve), control systems, and the habitable portions, you are looking at 400 to 500 tons easily. The volumetric size dictates at least 10 launches of a heavy lift booster would be needed to put the pieces in LEO, then you have to factor in the living quarters and other requirements for the construction crew, which probably would suck up at least triple the number of heavy lift launches the nuke power plant would. That would have to be built first before any nuke components ever went up.

You're talking some serious money that is just currently not available at this time for space.

It also needs to be built in space.

[Cripplecreek]

It also needs to be built in space.

Yup. However the weight of the power plant can be considerably lower. You could eliminate the radiation shielding and tow the thing a mile behind if need be.

[Ghost Bear]

I no longer believe human beings will walk on Mars in my lifetime (I am currently 53 years old.)

Heck, I'm not even sure human beings will make it back to the Moon before I shuffle off this mortal coil. 

[kevindavis007]

Yup. However the weight of the power plant can be considerably lower. You could eliminate the radiation shielding and tow the thing a mile behind if need be.

There is an x factor.. The Anti Nuke a**holes.. They are the reason why we don't have nuclear engines in space now.

[Joe Wooten]

Yup. However the weight of the power plant can be considerably lower. You could eliminate the radiation shielding and tow the thing a mile behind if need be.

You still have to have full shielding between the reactor plant and the crew cabins. the sides will have to have some shielding to allow landing craft to approach from most angles. Putting it further back will necessitate a very strong structure to take the thrust too. More shielding may be lighter that that option. High radioactivity was one reason NASA/AEC considered making NERVA engines one shot uses. I considered that a huge waste.

[Joe Wooten]

There is an x factor.. The Anti Nuke a**holes.. They are the reason why we don't have nuclear engines in space now.

Actually, no.

It was the cost of launching them into orbit. NASA and the AEC tested the NERVA at Jackass Flats, NV for 6-7 years and were contemplating it for a proposed One shot Mars mission using a cluster of three NERVA engines for propulsion. It was decided not to pursue it for several reasons, the cost of the mission being primary. Second was the problem of astronaut protection from radiation and zero g environment. It would have been very risky and a colossal waste of money to go to Mars right after the moon landings. I'd rather have spent that money on building a moon base and use it to learn how to live on hostile planets.
http://www.astronautix.com/i/imis1968.html
 
Photo of an unused NERVA 1 engine


 Drawing of the Mars ship before leaving earth orbit.

[Cripplecreek]

Actually, no.

It was the cost of launching them into orbit. NASA and the AEC tested the NERVA at Jackass Flats, NV for 6-7 years and were contemplating it for a proposed One shot Mars mission using a cluster of three NERVA engines for propulsion. It was decided not to pursue it for several reasons, the cost of the mission being primary. Second was the problem of astronaut protection from radiation and zero g environment. It would have been very risky and a colossal waste of money to go to Mars right after the moon landings. I'd rather have spent that money on building a moon base and use it to learn how to live on hostile planets.
http://www.astronautix.com/i/imis1968.html
 

That's why I say Bezos has the superior plan to Musk.

Musk is ambitious but it seems like he only wants to go to mars to be first. Bezos wants to return to the moon and learn to live there first.

[Joe Wooten]

That's why I say Bezos has the superior plan to Musk.

Musk is ambitious but it seems like he only wants to go to mars to be first. Bezos wants to return to the moon and learn to live there first.

Yep. Better to learn what we need to know about living on essentially airless small planets where re-supply/rescue is only 3 days away, instead of 3-6 months away.

[Cripplecreek]

Yep. Better to learn what we need to know about living on essentially airless small planets where re-supply/rescue is only 3 days away, instead of 3-6 months away.

If I were Bezos my long term goal for the moon would be to build a manufacturing and launch facility on the moon. The larger the base the better because 1000 people bring a lot wider skill set to space than an intensely trained crew of 4 or 5.

[kevindavis007]

That's why I say Bezos has the superior plan to Musk.

Musk is ambitious but it seems like he only wants to go to mars to be first. Bezos wants to return to the moon and learn to live there first.

My fear about Musk's plan is that his plan is going to cost lives and set back space exploration for god knows how long.


I think Bezos plan is better cause he is thinking long term. First the Moon, then Mars, then Europa, then Titan, and then Alpha Cenaturi.  Unless somehow we discover to go Interstellar right now.


Granted it neat that the ISS was built in space, however, the components was built on Earth and shipped to space. Not a good way to build things in space. We need to build huge ships in space. That is why we need to setup the facilities in space.   

[Cripplecreek]

My fear about Musk's plan is that his plan is going to cost lives and set back space exploration for god knows how long.

I think Bezos plan is better cause he is thinking long term. First the Moon, then Mars, then Europa, then Titan, and then Alpha Cenaturi.  Unless somehow we discover to go Interstellar right now.

Exactly, his goal seems to be first but not much else. Nothing good will come of killing astronauts in the most high profile thing mankind has ever done.

Granted it neat that the ISS was built in space, however, the components was built on Earth and shipped to space. Not a good way to build things in space. We need to build huge ships in space. That is why we need to setup the facilities in space.

Bigger really is better in space. We need ships  the size of aircraft carriers at least but they have to be built in space primarily with material produced in space. Crews of hundreds or thousands mean you can have surgeons and engineers without the need for cross trained surgeons who are also engineers. With a large enough crew you can have people like janitors and cooks.

[kevindavis007]

Exactly, his goal seems to be first but not much else. Nothing good will come of killing astronauts in the most high profile thing mankind has ever done.

The manned program barley survived Apollo 13 and the Challenger/Columbia disasters. If someone dies on way to Mars game over.

Bigger really is better in space. We need ships  the size of aircraft carriers at least but they have to be built in space primarily with material produced in space. Crews of hundreds or thousands mean you can have surgeons and engineers without the need for cross trained surgeons who are also engineers. With a large enough crew you can have people like janitors and cooks.

Well I don't recall seeing Janitors aboard the Starship Enterprise.  :)  But you right ships have to be the size of aircraft carriers..

[Joe Wooten]

Well I don't recall seeing Janitors aboard the Starship Enterprise.  :) 

They had super-dooper Roombas for janitorial duties.

[Elderberry]

Well I don't recall seeing Janitors aboard the Starship Enterprise.

You did, but didn't realize it.  The lower ranked crewmen would have had compartment cleaning responsibilities.

[SunkenCiv]

A 200 MW nuke power plant currently weighs more than the biggest booster available can handle. In fact a Saturn 5 could not handle it. The proposed Hyperion reactor would weigh in at 15 tons and produced 30 MWe. Scaling it up to 200 MWe would probably jack that up to 75 tons, and that's just for the reactor. the power conversion block would probably weigh at least that much itself. The you have to add in the fuel, water coolant (+ a large reserve), control systems, and the habitable portions, you are looking at 400 to 500 tons easily. The volumetric size dictates at least 10 launches of a heavy lift booster would be needed to put the pieces in LEO, then you have to factor in the living quarters and other requirements for the construction crew, which probably would suck up at least triple the number of heavy lift launches the nuke power plant would. That would have to be built first before any nuke components ever went up. You're talking some serious money that is just currently not available at this time for space.

Once built, it could stay up there, operating as a ferry between the two planets. Getting it built in LEO would require a bunch of launches, but reusing Falcon 9 (or the upcoming Heavy variant as needed) would reduce the cost.  F9 single stick can boost 25 (short) tons to LEO.

OTOH, the same F9 can send almost 4.5 tons to Mars, and the Falcon Heavy almost 15 tons to Mars.  The problem with the plasma engine won't be power, it will be cost.  Someone who's in a big hurry to get to Mars and wants to pay the bill (and that could eventually be SpaceX, during the colonization phase; in fact, it's difficult to see who else it could be) to build such a ferry system may pay to develop this later, but it seems like a better fit to use such an engine on an unmanned deep space or interstellar probe.

[kevindavis007]

Once built, it could stay up there, operating as a ferry between the two planets. Getting it built in LEO would require a bunch of launches, but reusing Falcon 9 (or the upcoming Heavy variant as needed) would reduce the cost.  F9 single stick can boost 25 (short) tons to LEO.

OTOH, the same F9 can send almost 4.5 tons to Mars, and the Falcon Heavy almost 15 tons to Mars.  The problem with the plasma engine won't be power, it will be cost.  Someone who's in a big hurry to get to Mars and wants to pay the bill (and that could eventually be SpaceX, during the colonization phase; in fact, it's difficult to see who else it could be) to build such a ferry system may pay to develop this later, but it seems like a better fit to use such an engine on an unmanned deep space or interstellar probe.

I think it is wise to develop the plasma engine on a unmanned interstellar probe at first.  Then build the plasma rocket once we figure out on how to lower the cost for manned space exploration. We have the technology it is just the cost that is holding us back.

[SunkenCiv]

I think it is wise to develop the plasma engine on a unmanned interstellar probe at first.

I wholeheartedly agree.  Deep space/interstellar exploration will remain robotic for the foreseeable, and is the only non-commercial space activity that the gubmint should involve in.