Author Topic: Hand Me That Wrench: Farmers and Apple Fight Over the Toolbox . Alex Fitzpatrick Jun 22, 2017  (Read 3010 times)

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Offline Blizzardnh

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Like any farmer, Guy Mills Jr. has had his share of equipment trouble. In the past, Mills, who grows corn, soybean and alfalfa on his 3,810-acre farm in Ansley, Neb., would have fixed his machinery himself. But like so many essential tools, Mills' equipment has become so technologically complex that he needs outside help when it breaks down. Unfortunately for him, that help can eat up time and money, both of which have been in short supply.

"If you have a bad alternator, they connect a computer to your tractor and it tells them the alternator is bad," says Mills, 57. "Before, there were other signs. Is the battery dead? Do you have lights? Just by looking at it and using deductive reasoning, you figured things out."

Mills and his fellow farmers say that part of the problem is that equipment manufacturers like Deere & Co., maker of John Deere tractors, make it difficult for consumers and independent repair shops to get the tools needed to fix today's high-tech tractors and other heavy machinery, which run on copyright-protected software. Instead, customers must often work with company-approved technicians, who can be far-flung and charge expensive rates. So Mills and other farmers nationwide have banded together in support of the so-called Right to Repair legislation. These bills, which have been proposed in at least 12 states, would require equipment manufacturers to offer the diagnostic tools, manuals and other supplies that farmers need to fix their own machines. "Customers, dealers and manufacturers should work together on the issue rather than invite government regulation that could add costs with no associated value," said Ken Golden, a spokesperson for Deere & Co.

More. http://time.com/4828099/farmers-and-apple-fight-over-the-toolbox/
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 01:47:11 pm by Blizzardnh »

Offline driftdiver

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It'll go the other way.   When we buy something we will be buying the right to use the product and not actual ownership.   Already happening with computers and software.   Microsoft is in love with this model.
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Online Smokin Joe

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You don't pay a quarter million for a tractor (or more) to be told you don't own it, or someone is going to drive one right through your showroom, and over anything that gets in the way.
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Offline DB

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The right answer is to not buy John-Deere products until they offer what you want/need. Using government to force them to do what you want is not the answer. Where does it end? If you buy a TV, a lawn mower, etc the manufacturer has to provide tools/software for the layman to repair it???
« Last Edit: June 28, 2017, 01:03:03 am by DB »

Offline driftdiver

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You don't pay a quarter million for a tractor (or more) to be told you don't own it, or someone is going to drive one right through your showroom, and over anything that gets in the way.

A lot more is spent on software.    Heck I just learned through my lawyer that two packages I bought.  One for 25k and one for 15k  don't  have to work.  All the software company has to do is try to make it work. 
« Last Edit: June 28, 2017, 12:19:33 am by driftdiver »
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Online Smokin Joe

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A lot more is spent on software.    Heck I just learned through my lawyer that two packages I bought.  One for 25k and one for 15k  don't  have to work.  All the software company has to do is try to make it work.
Shell out jsut shy of 380K for one of these (it's used, at that price) and the seeder setup to pull behind it and it's easy to have nearly a million dollars in hardware sitting there, not counting seed and ag chemicals. When you have a fairly short growing season and 14 sections to plant (8900 acres, and yes, I know a farmer who does), you don't want to be sidelined waiting two weeks on a factory tech to show up because Deere won't share the information you need to diagnose the problem and get going.
While that may cause people to move away from Deere, you still need to get the crop in the ground in time to do some good.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2017, 12:36:15 am by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline driftdiver

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Shell out jsut shy of 380K for one of these (it's used, at that price) and the seeder setup to pull behind it and it's easy to have nearly a million dollars in hardware sitting there, not counting seed and ag chemicals. When you have a fairly short growing season and 14 sections to plant (8900 acres, and yes, I know a farmer who does), you don't want to be sidelined waiting two weeks on a factory tech to show up because Deere won't share the information you need to diagnose the problem and get going.
While that may cause people to move away from Deere, you still need to get the crop in the ground in time to do some good.

I grew up in Iowa and spent a lot of time on family farms.  I know how it works.  Have even driven them.  Walked beans and so forth.
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Online Smokin Joe

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I grew up in Iowa and spent a lot of time on family farms.  I know how it works.  Have even driven them.  Walked beans and so forth.
Then you know the drill. The farmers here are doing fairly well, most having kept their mineral rights in the hard times and made a grundle off the latest oil boom at favorable terms. But there is a lot of discontent over the new equipment. Any more everything is GPS tied in and incredibly efficient, but only if it works. For guys who are used to fixing their own stuff, having to wait on someone is pretty tedious. Elsewhere where people are in deep for seed loans, it can be devastating.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline DB

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A lot more is spent on software.    Heck I just learned through my lawyer that two packages I bought.  One for 25k and one for 15k  don't  have to work.  All the software company has to do is try to make it work.

Yep, spent over $50k for a single seat of schematic capture/PCB layout software back in 1999 and have been paying 15% of that per year for maintenance for better or worse... Sometimes way worse...

Offline roamer_1

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For guys who are used to fixing their own stuff, having to wait on someone is pretty tedious. Elsewhere where people are in deep for seed loans, it can be devastating.


I know there's no way in hell I'd have a tractor I couldn't fix, no matter the bells and whistles. You've got to plow a helluva lot of ground to pay for a half million dollar machine.
 
At some point you might just be better off to raise up a mess of sons and keep 5 old Masseys running and have at it...
« Last Edit: June 28, 2017, 01:09:43 am by roamer_1 »

Offline Weird Tolkienish Figure

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Pleading ignorance on this one... however...

I posted a similar article like this on "Garage Journal" and the general feedback I received was that it's nonsense that farmers don't fix their own tractors.

 :shrug:

Offline DB

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Pleading ignorance on this one... however...

I posted a similar article like this on "Garage Journal" and the general feedback I received was that it's nonsense that farmers don't fix their own tractors.

 :shrug:

It depends on what's wrong with the tractor. There's maintenance, minor repairs and major break downs. The farmers in my family do maintenance and minor repairs (replace a hydraulic line, battery, starter). When it comes to the bigger heavier failures it takes a mechanic with tools and a way to manage the heavy items.

Online Smokin Joe

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Pleading ignorance on this one... however...

I posted a similar article like this on "Garage Journal" and the general feedback I received was that it's nonsense that farmers don't fix their own tractors.

 :shrug:
Mechanical stuff, sure. It's like cars, though. Not everyone can fix theirs when it comes to downloading the codes and fixing software and sensor problems, even with the code keys and OBDII reader, for instance.
Now that Deere has increasingly computerized the tractor, they aren't sharing the software to fix it, and that's part of the problem. Sometimes the problem is the software.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2017, 06:52:40 am by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline DB

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Mechanical stuff, sure. It's like cars, though. Not everyone can fix theirs when it comes to downloading the codes and fixing software and sensor problems, even with the code keys and OBDII reader, for instance.
Now that Deere has increasingly computerized the tractor, they aren't sharing the software to fix it, and that's part of the problem. Sometimes the problem is the software.


The answer is to make Deere suffer in the market place if they won't provide what their customers want.

Online Smokin Joe

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The answer is to make Deere suffer in the market place if they won't provide what their customers want.
I agree, but in the meantime, you have people 'stuck' with a million dollars worth of unproductive equipment who still have to get their crops in.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline SunkenCiv

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Quote
[snip] These bills, which have been proposed in at least 12 states, would require equipment manufacturers to offer the diagnostic tools, manuals and other supplies that farmers need to fix their own machines. "Customers, dealers and manufacturers should work together on the issue rather than invite government regulation that could add costs with no associated value," said Ken Golden, a spokesperson for Deere & Co. [/snip]
Tractors last a long time.  Mess around with the profitability of manufacturing them and even more of it will move offshore, and quality will decline.
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Offline roamer_1

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Tractors last a long time.  Mess around with the profitability of manufacturing them and even more of it will move offshore, and quality will decline.

But mess around with their simplicity and repair-ability, and profitability in manufacturing will decline all the same.

Online Smokin Joe

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Tractors last a long time.  Mess around with the profitability of manufacturing them and even more of it will move offshore, and quality will decline.
Leave a farmer sitting in the middle of planting with a million dollars worth of idle equipment he can't just get back up and running, and the next million dollars for equipment will go elsewhere anyway.
At issue isn't manufacturing, it's maintenance.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline SunkenCiv

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Nope.  Some of the profits are on the back end.  Cars used to be simpler, and easier to work on, and many a dad was a Sunday driveway mechanic.  Now they're more complex, but only need a tuneup every 50,000 miles or more.  Tires used to need changing at least twice a year here in the snow belt -- now they're radials and just get rotated every other LOF.
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Online Smokin Joe

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Nope.  Some of the profits are on the back end.  Cars used to be simpler, and easier to work on, and many a dad was a Sunday driveway mechanic.  Now they're more complex, but only need a tuneup every 50,000 miles or more.  Tires used to need changing at least twice a year here in the snow belt -- now they're radials and just get rotated every other LOF.
All of the farmer's profits depend on getting the crop in. When you farm thousands of acres that huge six figure dust collector out there will only garner enmity. Piss off a farmer, and you lose his business for life.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline goodwithagun

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Use Joel Salatan's farming methods and put a major pinch on John Deere. No government intervention necessary.
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Online Smokin Joe

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Use Joel Salatan's farming methods and put a major pinch on John Deere. No government intervention necessary.
Unfortunately that won't work on a 7000 acre wheat farm in a much colder climate.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline goodwithagun

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Unfortunately that won't work on a 7000 acre wheat farm in a much colder climate.

Fortunately you don't need 7000 acres to do what he does.
I stand with Roosgirl.

Online Smokin Joe

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Fortunately you don't need 7000 acres to do what he does.
That's all fine, but it doesn't make anyone a living up this way, or put bread on a lot of tables.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline goodwithagun

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That's all fine, but it doesn't make anyone a living up this way, or put bread on a lot of tables.

Maybe they should try his way, then. It puts a lot of bread on a lot of tables.
I stand with Roosgirl.