Author Topic: Eugenics and Abortion  (Read 3641 times)

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Offline sneakypete

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Eugenics and Abortion
« on: June 27, 2017, 11:29:47 am »
I see and have seen passionate as well as sometimes intelligent discussions about these issues for years,but NEVER see any pros to oppose the cons.

So I am going to state some in order to start a discussion where the OTHER side of the arguments is also stated.

We all know the anti-eugenics and anti-abortion points,and they ALL seem to be based entirely on emotions and religious beliefs.  I am NOT claiming those are bad reasons,just trying to state what *I* think are the basic facts.

The Eugenics people base their intellectual (mostly unspoken) argument on some pretty solid facts,namely that there is a finite amount of resources available on the planet,and the sick,the lame,the stupid,and the lazy use up more than their fair share and contribute nothing in return in a modern world where grunt labor has very little value to societies,and has less value with each passing year.

In addition there are birth rates to consider,and no one can argue that the most productive and educated societies produce fewer babies than the ignorant and backwards societies,therefore creating a situation where unless things change radically there will be a tiny minority of the world population that will essentially be working and denying themselves the joys of larger families and more productive nations in order to provide food,shelter,clothing,medical care,comfort,and entertainment for a massive population of people who are little more advanced than cave men,and who have no interest in advancing any further or even taking care of themselves because the advanced and industrious people's and nations will take care of them.

The planet Earth is a closed system and there can be no question about there being a finite amount of resources available,regardless of how many people need or demand those resources for themselves. The abortion and eugenics people don't seem to want to say this out loud,but you don't have to have a Doctorate in Sociology to understand that at some point the needy will outnumber the providers by a massive percentage of the world's population because they are breeding like rabbits while the providers are limiting their family sizes in order to provide more comfort and stability.

IF you accept this projection as an indisputable truth,and given human nature it sure seems to be an indisputable truth,we will eventually arrive at a point where the necessities of life as well as the luxuries are running out,and the mobs will revolt and demand ALL the necessities as well as the luxuries be given to them instead of kept for themselves by the people responsible for creating and producing them,and that is when the violent revolution will happen that will virtually take the planet back to the Stone Age as the humans that are little more than animals murder off the productive people in order to get the luxuries they want.

I am not real sure how well I have stated the POV of the Eugenics and Abortion people because they never seem to be interested in discussing the WHY's of their POV. They just state what they think needs to be done,and even then they don't go into details. Mostly because they CAN'T without appearing to be cold and selfish,and having their opponents scream "NAZI!" at them and demand they be killed or put into prison for suggesting people need to be responsible.  I am basing what I wrote on what SEEMS TO ME to be the basis of their logic and efforts.

If you are an Eugenics and Abortion supporter and think I have misstated your positions,PLEASE speak up and correct me.

We all know the basis of the anti-Eugenics and Anti-Abortion crowds are religious beliefs,and organized religions NEED  huge masses of followers for political power as well as a base to build their wealth on.

I see no possible basis for a middle-ground where the two opposing groups can meet and agree on any sort of compromise at all. One side wants to limit population so there are more resources and power for fewer people,and the other side wants to increase population because that is where their power base lies.

I am not sure most of the people on either side have taken the time to try to understand WHY they take the stands they take because both sides seem to me to focus more on to me to focus more on screaming insults at each other than facts. For different reasons maybe,but the end results are still the same,division,jealousy, and hatred. ALL eventually leading to war.

IF we can,let's try to limit the hatred to a slow boil,and see if we can have a discussion where ideas are presented where maybe both sides can meet and agree on something.

Yeah,I know,but it's worth trying.
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Eugenics and Abortion
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2017, 01:09:55 pm »
My feelings on abortion are well known.

We certainly have the means to prevent conception, wherever, whenever. They are cheap, available, and can be distributed readily. That doesn't mean they will necessarily be used, but they are there.

That will not be well greeted in populations just a few years, if that, removed from high mortality rates, low survival to their teens, and short lifespans which have traditionally viewed having many descendants as evidence of a life well lived, sexual prowess, virility/fertility, and an all around good thing.
Other sitgma attach: http://www.egyptindependent.com/buying-birth-control-sexual-stigmas-and-stds/ there is a farly good rundown at the link.

I prefer prevention over termination, simply because I regard the latter as murder, and no culture which will not practice the former willingly which values life will engage in the latter except under the most brutal compulsion.

Eugenics are a different kettle of worms, though they are somewhat related. It is a process of not only limiting a population in numbers, but in determining the genetics and bloodlines of those who will procreate, effectively selectively breeding humans through decree, using sterilization (physical or chemical, temporary or permanent), limiting conjugal contact or actively forbidding it, and actively removing entire traits from the population by removing the individuals who carry them. While eugenecists may claim it is just weeding the garden of the human population, I would submit that many of the medicines we have come from weeds, and the only difference between a weed and a crop is how much someone desires to have it grown.

Make no mistake, if the current group running things get their way, this is coming. At first, as ever, the soft sell, then the hard sell, then force.
For now, most DNA testing outside criminal courts is conducted voluntarily, even paid for by the subject. We've all seen the ads, "find out who your ancestors are" (I understand there may be some folks who have no idea because of adoption, or the absence of a biological parent, or something on that order, but for most people I am prompted to ask, "You don't know?") Aside from eliminating the mailman or milkman from your personal gene pool, why the big push? There is a peek at that in preemployment DNA testing to identify potential for diseases, and the denial of health insurance on that basis (and even employment) will be used as a tool of attrition.

DNA evidence not only tracks your 'tribal roots', but so much more--in fact everything about you not derived from experience and education. Health outlook as a set of probabilities, including recessive and dominant genetic problems (or potential ones), capacity (theoretical) for intelligence, perhaps even aspects of your personality, your physical attributes, demeanor, possibly even psychological traits. With that information, the "undesirable" aspects of you can be eliminated from the gene pool with the harsh hand of totalitarian government, and perhaps with in utero testing, even you, yourself, before you see the light of day.

Of course the drawbacks to creating a 'master race' leave it like the AmerInds in the face of smallpox: particularly vulnerable, en masse, to a novel pathogen or series of pathogens. The law of unintended consequences can be harsh indeed. Entire immunities could be discarded by pitching the aspects of the race the overlords decided were undesirable, something that could take humanity down the path to being a biological footnote in the fossil record.
 
Then there is the question of who decides, ultimately, and on what basis, what is or is not desirable?
Will selection be artificially made for those who are the offspring of PhDs? Will the likes of Stephen Hawking be discarded in utero because they have a gene that heralds a neuromuscular disorder? Will those with weak backs and strong minds prevail, and what will the folks with strong backs make of that? They will not go quietly into that night.

Either way, the eugenic highway is the road to totalitarianism, and possibly extinction. Abortion is just a tool.

For a moment, if not longer, trust that depravity is its own reward, that The Almighty knew what He was doing when He created humans, and that the variations serve purpose. That purpose isn't always known to us, but is serious enough He made Himself manifest in the flesh that we might receive a future in His presence for the next step, after this life. No human can predict based on superficial attributes the utility, if you will, of any individual in our society, in the human population just by the blueprint, because every human takes on another dimension beyond their physical presence. Eliminate by race, and the man who invented blood typing, among others is gone. Eliminate by religion, and the atom is harnessed perhaps, by someone else with a very different outcome.  Tinker with the genetics of the poorer side of town, and possibly eliminate the savant who figures out how to harness space and time and gravity and provide the very ticket to human survival and our spread throughout a fertile galaxy, eliminating the perceived need for the penurious treatment of resources. 

Our aid programs are often a failure, funds and supplies sequestered by political entities, used to feed/pay armies to oppress their domain. Giving a man a fish, only guarantees he will be on your doorstep tomorrow, and that he will grow ever resentful of begging for dinner. We need to teach them to fish, so to speak, and leave them to it. Hunger does wonders for those trying to retain their lessons. If we fear their revolt, then quit selling them implements of war beyond their own abilities to produce. Let them be self sufficient on a small scale, productive on a large one, and they will grow prosperous and be able to feed their own. Don't put that burden on just a few backs from elsewhere.

It would be silly to think any one nation could implement either course of action, or impose it in a vacuum. Certainly there are those who will trade guns for butter, or butter for guns. Power and greed know no boundaries, be they racial, national, or cultural, but are seductive sirens each must resist of their own volition if they are to be free. For those who will not resist that song, who insist on pillaging their citizenry, no help. No refugees. Let them rise up and pull down their tyrants and offer them the philosophies of freedom and let them choose for themselves.

Let the churches go forth amid all of this to pass along those ideas of freedom, not the enslavement offered by some, but they do so at their own risk, as ever mindful that they will be under the protection of The Almighty, which we have been guaranteed is sufficient.

Sorry, @sneakypete , but I can't divorce human tinkering with the design from references to the Creator. However I have tried to present very real and biologically sound reasons, along with cultural ones, for not practicing eugenics and not favoring abortion. The two go hand in hand. Even the most devout Darwinist would allow natural selection to run its course over selective breeding, mainly because for all their pomp and ego, those who would be making the selections have no f***ing idea what they are doing in the long run. These are the same lot who would tell you the planet is going to roast and drown everyone on the coasts (oh, some time in the next 300 years) in order to manipulate the populace into throwing away their freedom, their technology, their birthright. I sure would not trust them to choose the human genotype.
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Offline txradioguy

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Re: Eugenics and Abortion
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2017, 01:51:37 pm »
There is no way man...who is imperfect by design...could ever hope to create the perfect race or perfect human.

Eugenics in America was forwarded and nurtured by racists as a way to cull Blacks from the population.  Margret Sanger, the sainted founder of Planned Parenthood was an avowed racist and supporter of Eugenics.

IIRC her first Planned Parenthood clinic was set up in Harlem for that very reason.

« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 01:54:51 pm by txradioguy »
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Offline sneakypete

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Re: Eugenics and Abortion
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2017, 02:10:10 pm »

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We certainly have the means to prevent conception, wherever, whenever. They are cheap, available, and can be distributed readily. That doesn't mean they will necessarily be used, but they are there.

That will not be well greeted in populations just a few years, if that, removed from high mortality rates, low survival to their teens, and short lifespans which have traditionally viewed having many descendants as evidence of a life well lived, sexual prowess, virility/fertility, and an all around good thing.

True. Which,when you think about it,is at the very root of the problem.


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I prefer prevention over termination, simply because I regard the latter as murder, and no culture which will not practice the former willingly which values life will engage in the latter except under the most brutal compulsion.

Can't argue with you on that one,with one exception. In MY mind,it's not murder if the life of the mother is at genuine risk if she carries to term.

Also,killing is not always the same thing as murder.


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Eugenics are a different kettle of worms, though they are somewhat related. It is a process of not only limiting a population in numbers, but in determining the genetics and bloodlines of those who will procreate,


Societies have always done this. For example,ugly men and women who are poor have a harder time finding mates,or even anyone that wants to have sex with them than people thought to be attractive and successful by that culture's standards,and the truth is that with the exception of rape,it has ALWAYS been the women who determine who is going to father her children. 

Western governments also dictate who can marry who,and have for centuries. There are laws everywhere in the west preventing siblings or parents and children from marrying one another. Who can really raise a rational argument against  the woman determining whose baby she will carry and give birth to,or the state saying a brother and sister can't marry?


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effectively selectively breeding humans through decree, using sterilization (physical or chemical, temporary or permanent), limiting conjugal contact or actively forbidding it, and actively removing entire traits from the population by removing the individuals who carry them. While eugenecists may claim it is just weeding the garden of the human population, I would submit that many of the medicines we have come from weeds, and the only difference between a weed and a crop is how much someone desires to have it grown.

Kind of a twist on the "People ain't race horses!" stand. I'm personally on the fence with this one. One the one hand,I can see and understand how humankind can only benefit from such policies in the long run,but on the other hand I am not happy with any government having the power to tell people with no extreme circumstances who they can and can't have children with. When it comes to personal decisions,that's about as personal as it gets. I should note here that I don't have any daughters,but if I did that viewpoint would probably be subject to a radical change.


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Make no mistake, if the current group running things get their way, this is coming.

Of course it is.Humans are programmed by nature to try to improve their situations. The only real argument is over where the line is drawn.

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At first, as ever, the soft sell, then the hard sell, then force.

I am not so sure force will be necessary in 1st World Countries. Social pressure and subtle government "pressure" with tax breaks or penalties will probably be all that is needed.

In the 3rd World and even 2nd World countries where you noted earlier where having many children is seen as proof of manhood or social status,force would probably be necessary,though.



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DNA evidence not only tracks your 'tribal roots', but so much more--in fact everything about you not derived from experience and education. Health outlook as a set of probabilities, including recessive and dominant genetic problems (or potential ones), capacity (theoretical) for intelligence, perhaps even aspects of your personality, your physical attributes, demeanor, possibly even psychological traits. With that information, the "undesirable" aspects of you can be eliminated from the gene pool with the harsh hand of totalitarian government, and perhaps with in utero testing, even you, yourself, before you see the light of day.

That may have been a genuine concern a generation or so ago,but with the advances in science these days and with nano-technology getting set to become a reality,most or all of the genetic flaws can be corrected before a baby is even born,and neither that baby nor any of his or her children will carry or pass on those genes. I won't live to see it,but I would be shocked if people in their 40's didn't live long enough to see and accept it as a daily fact of life.

Of course once it becomes a reality the people who can't afford or didn't benefit from it will be screaming about "designer babies",and they will even have a point beyond jealousy.  "Who is going to watch the Watcher?".


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Of course the drawbacks to creating a 'master race' leave it like the AmerInds in the face of smallpox: particularly vulnerable, en masse, to a novel pathogen or series of pathogens. The law of unintended consequences can be harsh indeed.


This isn't the 18th Century,so that is not a concern.

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Entire immunities could be discarded by pitching the aspects of the race the overlords decided were undesirable, something that could take humanity down the path to being a biological footnote in the fossil record.
 

Thus my comment that stated,"Who is going to watch the Watcher?"  Which has always been a question ever since the first tribe of humans formed.


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Then there is the question of who decides, ultimately, and on what basis, what is or is not desirable?

Historically that has always been women,and with so many women in government and the sciences these days,they will be doing that at one level or another.


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Will selection be artificially made for those who are the offspring of PhDs?

I doubt it. Genius doesn't work that way. Most geniuses are born to parents with average IQ's. If you want to get basic wid it,"Genius" is really nothing more than a birth defect. Generally speaking a desirable birth defect,but a birth defect just the same.

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Will the likes of Stephen Hawking be discarded in utero because they have a gene that heralds a neuromuscular disorder?

Once again I doubt it because I am confident one of the first traits searched for will be the traits that lead towards genius.

 
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Will those with weak backs and strong minds prevail, and what will the folks with strong backs make of that? They will not go quietly into that night.

There will always be a need for strong backs,if not for weak minds.


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Either way, the eugenic highway is the road to totalitarianism, and possibly extinction. Abortion is just a tool.

Every scientific advancement I can think of has the ability to be used as either a tool or a weapon. I see no reason  for genetics research to be an exception.



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For a moment, if not longer, trust that depravity is its own reward, that The Almighty knew what He was doing when He created humans, and that the variations serve purpose. That purpose isn't always known to us, but is serious enough He made Himself manifest in the flesh that we might receive a future in His presence for the next step, after this life.

Ok,you lost me on that one. I don't believe in fairy tales.




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It would be silly to think any one nation could implement either course of action, or impose it in a vacuum.


This would be especially true for genetics research and treatments. It's either for the whole planet,or why bother?



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Sorry, @sneakypete , but I can't divorce human tinkering with the design from references to the Creator.

You believe what you believe. There is no need or reason to apologize for your beliefs as long as you don't demand we all follow them.

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However I have tried to present very real and biologically sound reasons, along with cultural ones, for not practicing eugenics and not favoring abortion.

And,IMHO,you have done a fine job of stating your case.


 
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Eugenics and Abortion
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2017, 04:42:20 pm »
True. Which,when you think about it,is at the very root of the problem.


Can't argue with you on that one,with one exception. In MY mind,it's not murder if the life of the mother is at genuine risk if she carries to term.

Also,killing is not always the same thing as murder.


If, by the continued development of an ectopic or fallopian pregnancy the mother and child will both die, it has been convention to save the mother if not possible to save both. That has ever been the harsh decision made on a medical basis.

That is truly life-or-death, and not some of the excuses commonly proffered which usually boil down to inconvenience.
 

Societies have always done this. For example,ugly men and women who are poor have a harder time finding mates,or even anyone that wants to have sex with them than people thought to be attractive and successful by that culture's standards,and the truth is that with the exception of rape,it has ALWAYS been the women who determine who is going to father her children.

Not the same as a mandate. That was natural selection. Women, as you have noted below, choose, but those criteria are somewhat less cut-and -dried than the quantified results of some sociological study or the attempts to define the 'perfect' human genome.

It isn't selective breeding, really, but a selection of mate (or any more commonly a series of mates) for producing offspring.   But "Society" doesn't do it, individuals (responding or not to whatever social pressures they feel relevant or important) do. Chalk that up to women's intuition, but there is a big difference. One is a free choice (often for intangibles and incomprehensible), the other is totalitarian control.

Western governments also dictate who can marry who,and have for centuries. There are laws everywhere in the west preventing siblings or parents and children from marrying one another. Who can really raise a rational argument against  the woman determining whose baby she will carry and give birth to,or the state saying a brother and sister can't marry?

The laws against incest were a product of observed recessive genetic disasters, at least in part.
Even the braided family trees of the Royal families of Europe in the past few centuries have proven that this isn't such a good idea, with hemophilia rampant in the lineages for a while.

None is immune to that problem, unless of course, there is an absence of recessive traits. For the longest time, those records of births deaths and marriages were kept by the churches, and it was a monk who made some of the early progress in genetics, likely thrilled to find something besides village idiots and royalty as an example of recessive and dominant traits. (Safer to publish about peas than the heir to the throne).
   
Kind of a twist on the "People ain't race horses!" stand. I'm personally on the fence with this one. One the one hand,I can see and understand how humankind can only benefit from such policies in the long run,but on the other hand I am not happy with any government having the power to tell people with no extreme circumstances who they can and can't have children with. When it comes to personal decisions,that's about as personal as it gets. I should note here that I don't have any daughters,but if I did that viewpoint would probably be subject to a radical change.

It isn't just the idea of government run breeding programs that rankles me (all that 'master race' stuff), it is the idea that those who breed for one trait often breed in weaknesses, too.

Look at purebred dogs, for instance.
Irish setters tend to be (at least in my estimation) some of the most beautiful dogs on the planet. Generally, though, they are dumb as a fence post.

German Shepherds are also beautiful dogs, brilliant in comparison to the Setters, but suffer dysplasia.

Just two examples, there are more. While it might not be so, short of combining the genes to breed the 'perfect human' in a lab, with one trait advancing, another will likely recede.

Breeding the 'perfect human' in a lab is something I have a multitude of objections to, some religious (playing 'god' Dr. Frankenstein?), bitter resentment by the 'naturals' toward the boutique babies, the idea that someone who was 'perfect' and was told (or found out) that they were a construct, deciding they alone were the hope for the future...well, we've been through the Manson/Jim Jones thing before, and all we need is a (really) genetically superior being with a 'god complex'.
That won't work out well.
Some traits which are decided to be 'undesirable' or weaknesses may in slightly different context actually be beneficial to the population in that situation. Wiping out those traits in the quest for perfection (in say, SoCal) won't do well inside the Arctic Circle, nor likely in the Sahara or the African Jungles. Humans are different for a reason--so we won't all want or need to live in the same place.

Those very traits 'bred out' of the human lineage just might be the very ones essential to surviving long space voyages, or populating other planets, provided we quit trying to hammer every peg through the same hole long enough to get there.

Of course it is.Humans are programmed by nature to try to improve their situations. The only real argument is over where the line is drawn.

Sure we are, but what we consider 'improved' really varies. For an Innuit, it might be a better boat, for someone in the rain forest, better hut or spear, for someone in New York City, more money to get higher up in the building and have less contact with their neighbors--everyone has a different idea of 'better', usually dependent on relevant skill sets, which vary by environment and with cultural norms.

There are basics generally regarded as a plus, and that rolls right back into this issue head-on: providing food, shelter, security, offspring. Continuing the species (as they know it) is the ultimate goal. I say 'as they know it' because almost every people on Earth, every tribe has a word for themselves which generally means "the people" and a word for everyone else who aren't 'the people', meaning their people/adversaries/enemies, of course. All else is window dressing in the grand scheme of things.
 
Transportation might mean a good runner or a ship capable of planetary liftoff and warp 10. "Provider" might mean bringing home the bacon, literally, a good fisherman, someone who earns a lot of pieces of paper which can be exchanged for other things which are a human construct, but essentially all boil down to some variation on the theme of food, shelter, clothing, security, and even offspring, which seem to become less important as the distance from running in rudimentary animal skin shoes after dinner becomes just another faded tribal memory. But it is that last which guarantees the continuation of the 'tribe', the success of a society, a culture, and ultimately, in concert (all cultures) the species.

I am not so sure force will be necessary in 1st World Countries. Social pressure and subtle government "pressure" with tax breaks or penalties will probably be all that is needed.

In the 3rd World and even 2nd World countries where you noted earlier where having many children is seen as proof of manhood or social status,force would probably be necessary,though.


In the first world, propaganda will carry the day, but an iron fist will be used to finish the job. It won't be done by just smashing, though, there will also be the velvet glove of forced euthanasia (for their own good), of economic deprivation (no mark, no trade), of deprivation of resources in the name of making sure all have the necessary resources (like healthcare), and other 'soft' means of murder that will keep the manicured hands who enact them free of the gore and blood of honest killing.

I believe it was Bill Ayres who figured out that roughly 10% of the (then) population of America would not be able to be 'reeducated' and would have to be dispensed with.

But the 3rd and 4th world will not be so subtle, but will through the long and recently held rejection of things not more basic to survival (including many progeny), they will fight as hard as they can, requiring elimination in toto, or the 'adoption' of their progeny orphaned and discarded as a result of orchestrated conflict in order to preserve a sampling of the genetic stocks in case they need to be mixed in for survival purposes later.

A "bloodbath" whether done by chemical means, weather engineering, conflict, disease, economic games, or WMD, would hardly be adequate to describe the destruction wrought out of fear of the 'primitives' (that Darwinian prejudice again) who would crack heads and eviscerate in battle or reprisal or fits of bloodlust (religiously or otherwise motivated) those who are nowhere near physically capable of fending them off, should they get into range.

That may have been a genuine concern a generation or so ago,but with the advances in science these days and with nano-technology getting set to become a reality,most or all of the genetic flaws can be corrected before a baby is even born,and neither that baby nor any of his or her children will carry or pass on those genes. I won't live to see it,but I would be shocked if people in their 40's didn't live long enough to see and accept it as a daily fact of life..
That, of course, depends on which 'defects' actually are defects.

Whip up that designer baby, and find out it's pretty pablum.

It has none of the passion brought about by being the fat kid or the slow kid or the big kid or the one that got picked on, none of the creative genius born of pain as a child, none of the strength developed in reprisal for being picked last for the team, none of the genius developed for being called 'dumb', none of the drive that comes with overcoming obstacles, be they economic, social, physical, real or imparted.

There are so many intangibles that are physical that relate to the development of the mind, the psyche, the spirit, that it is not likely possible to quantify them accurately, if at all, and all that means is that people end up, not with genuine offspring, not a continuation of their genetics for which they feel an genuine and instinctive attraction, but innately reject the tampered with and adulterated thing they have been given.
And there, the monkey wrench gets thrown into the very basics of maternal love, one of the most fundamental instincts on the planet.
 
How would the mother feel who looks deeply into her husband's eyes and realizes the child bears no resemblance to either of them? Unless they fought hard to adopt, cognizant of their inability to produce their own get, not the same as the one who says, "Honey he has your nose (Poor dear!)."

Without that fundamental attraction, they might as well be ordering a car off the showroom floor, a gadget out of a catalog, they aren't parents except in the least consensual adoptive sense, and only some of humanity is really cut out for that.

Many have far too much ego to be satisfied or as connected as they would with their own unique mix of genetic material, and the deepest impact would be not on the parents, but the next generation who would have to teach themselves to love, to genuinely care and not just go through the motions, to be human--if they did at all. .
Of course once it becomes a reality the people who can't afford or didn't benefit from it will be screaming about "designer babies",and they will even have a point beyond jealousy.  "Who is going to watch the Watcher?".
' Beyond jealousy' could lead to a solid cultural backlash against the 'parents' and their offspring, and the science that made it all possible. Burn the Books! Smash the Labs! Enter the next Dark Age.
Not out of the realm of possibility.

This isn't the 18th Century,so that is not a concern.

It's always a concern. One thing that doesn't change is human nature. Just another torchlight peasant 'parade' to the castle on the hill.

 
Thus my comment that stated,"Who is going to watch the Watcher?"  Which has always been a question ever since the first tribe of humans formed.
Exactly.
Who will pick which traits are 'desirable'? What will be deemed important to the survival of the species, and by whom? And for what conditions? If humanity is to travel to the planets and to the stars, we don't know what traits we have that will be important. It might be the short, stocky, not so pretty people with excessive body hair are just the ticket for Rigel IV, and eventually, on that world an image of beauty.


Historically that has always been women,and with so many women in government and the sciences these days,they will be doing that at one level or another.

We have both seen that a bias along those lines has worked out badly on occasion. Suppose women (womyn) decide that what they really need is a female capable of producing offspring without a male--and succeed in creating one?
Not all women in this culture are a wreck, but we see headlines populated with those who are, and marches, unless grossly overemphasized, imply there are millions out there in similar straits.
Ultimately, women choose their mate, given choice. Guys may on occasion be in a position to overrule that, but that isn't a formula for happiness and domestic tranquility.
But are those things which they select as 'perfect' really so? After all, for however long men and women have cohabited, generally the man has been willing to give her what she wants--just as soon as she figures out what that is...

I doubt it. Genius doesn't work that way. Most geniuses are born to parents with average IQ's. If you want to get basic wid it,"Genius" is really nothing more than a birth defect. Generally speaking a desirable birth defect,but a birth defect just the same.


That's just the problem with eliminating 'defects', some actually work in favor of the individual, which works in favor of their community, which works in favor of humanity (or against it, which forces the rest to adapt).
 
Once again I doubt it because I am confident one of the first traits searched for will be the traits that lead towards genius.

That requires the ability to recognize genius, not just the ability to bamboozle, or a carefully crafted orthodoxy. Genius which is contrary to accepted scientific dogma is seldom recognized, like artists who aren't considered 'genius' until after they are dead. The best minds might be passed over.

 
There will always be a need for strong backs,if not for weak minds.

Yep, but at some point, enough strong backs will overpower the weak backed strong minds. Quantity and brute force have a quality all their own.
Machines can do many of the same jobs in the right hands, as factories full of robots remind us daily.

Every scientific advancement I can think of has the ability to be used as either a tool or a weapon. I see no reason  for genetics research to be an exception.
True that!  888high58888


Ok,you lost me on that one. I don't believe in fairy tales.

You may see my attribution for the design as a fairy tale, but the point is this:That combinations of genetic traits which on their face may appear to be undesirable actually benefit the individual in the environments they developed in (or survived best in). To take over and say this set of attributes are ideal is a one size fits all solution to the human genome, but we don't live in a one size fits all world, even here on Earth. Those variations that might be artificially selected against, have served a purpose in the natural world, and to eliminate them because they do not fit someone's idea of 'ideal' will weaken the gene pool, not strengthen it.

We are only a serious climate change (hotter or colder, it does change), a mid-sized not ELE cosmic impact, or a major (Toba-sized) eruption away from needing whatever it is that will enable humans to survive. Wipe that out of the gene pool and humans are a footnote in the fossil record--just more bones in the mud.



This would be especially true for genetics research and treatments. It's either for the whole planet,or why bother?


That is the risk. Parts of the planet will rebel, violently.

I'm not sure which is the most dangerous group. The 'primitives' who are natural combinations of genetics, or the ones who would walk off to the baby boutiques to order up some custom rugrat they will ever view as a possession, not a child, a status symbol, (and possibly a sign of their failure to afford the 'best' package instead of just the 'better' one, ever resented as a symbol of their inability to afford the very best, somehow inferior, instead of just loved as their offspring and the fruit of their loins.


You believe what you believe. There is no need or reason to apologize for your beliefs as long as you don't demand we all follow them.

I'm not demanding you or anyone follow my beliefs, though those are the root of the more scientific concerns I raise. I give credit for the design to an all knowing and all powerful God.

But I'm a geologist, I had to learn the 'other side', so if you wanted to take the view of an evolutionist, you would equally recognize that (in those terms)  the billions of years of evolution and natural selection which brought the species this far have produced variations in the species which have been, in places and times and specific environments, necessary to the survival of the species, and that those legacy genes, while not apparently useful in this geological, climatological, and social context could be essential if any of those factors (or all of them) changed, for whatever reason.
 
We know those factors change.

It would be Hubris, indeed, to think we are capable of controlling them beyond global totalitarianism, and even that might not be capable of controlling the Social aspects alone. It cannot alter climate to any great extent, and if it could, there are still those tectonic or cosmic events to reckon with.
 
Thus, it would be folly to eliminate those traits from the gene pool in search of the 'perfect' human, because that 'perfect' human lives in an imperfect world. Besides, which one of those 'perfect humans' is going to scrub the bathrooms? Everyone has some purpose in life, and we can't always predict who or what or where, even given a few years to observe (school records, for instance, often are no indicator of future success).
Everyone sees themselves as the one kicked back on the couch, eating grapes, not the slob who is hauling the grapes up to the servants' entrance.
 
And,IMHO,you have done a fine job of stating your case.
Thanks!
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Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Eugenics and Abortion
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2017, 06:45:07 pm »
What's the middle ground?  Simple - liberty and education.   Women must have the liberty to decide for themselves whether and when to procreate, and the education to make such choice a wise one.   Education allows a woman to effectively plan her pregnancy, or plan to prevent it.   Education helps to dispel the pressure to reproduce brought about by religious tribalism.   And liberty  - both the liberty of self-determination and economic self-sufficiency,  and liberty from the religion-fueled police power of the state - helps make sure that a child will be wanted and nurtured, and in turn educated to become a responsible member of the liberty-loving community.   
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Offline Ancient

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Re: Eugenics and Abortion
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2017, 06:57:31 pm »
The predictions of malthus were wrong, the predictions of peak oil were wrong... but we can trust the elites to mess with the future of our race?  No thank you.

And btw, abortion is not "planning a pregnancy".

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Eugenics and Abortion
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2017, 07:07:24 pm »
The predictions of malthus were wrong, the predictions of peak oil were wrong... but we can trust the elites to mess with the future of our race?  No thank you.

And btw, abortion is not "planning a pregnancy".

Race tribalism is as pernicious as religious tribalism, IMO.   The only tribe of which I'm a member is the American tribe.

I never said that abortion is "planning a pregnancy".  But I will say this - education is the key to preventing an unwanted pregnancy - you know, the kind that far too often ends in abortion.     
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Eugenics and Abortion
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2017, 07:13:21 pm »
What's the middle ground?  Simple - liberty and education.   Women must have the liberty to decide for themselves whether and when to procreate, and the education to make such choice a wise one.   Education allows a woman to effectively plan her pregnancy, or plan to prevent it.   Education helps to dispel the pressure to reproduce brought about by religious tribalism.   And liberty  - both the liberty of self-determination and economic self-sufficiency,  and liberty from the religion-fueled police power of the state - helps make sure that a child will be wanted and nurtured, and in turn educated to become a responsible member of the liberty-loving community.
If education allows for all that planning, why are they shredding the 'plans'?
Abortion isn't pregnancy, nor is it prevention.

Fifty Million dead and counting.

Women aren't stupid. They figured out what made babies a long time ago, and not so long ago had the prevention down pretty well, too.  They had the liberty to say "no" without the pressure of so many others putting out that it was expected. That was self-determination and freedom from the intense peer pressure to engage in sexual activities. The state has never been "religion fueled"--if it was, there would be no legalized abortion.

Seems when women were less 'educated', they were more responsible and fewer babies got shredded where they ought to be safest.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline txradioguy

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Re: Eugenics and Abortion
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2017, 07:25:19 pm »
If education allows for all that planning, why are they shredding the 'plans'?
Abortion isn't pregnancy, nor is it prevention.

Fifty Million dead and counting.

Women aren't stupid. They figured out what made babies a long time ago, and not so long ago had the prevention down pretty well, too.  They had the liberty to say "no" without the pressure of so many others putting out that it was expected. That was self-determination and freedom from the intense peer pressure to engage in sexual activities. The state has never been "religion fueled"--if it was, there would be no legalized abortion.

Seems when women were less 'educated', they were more responsible and fewer babies got shredded where they ought to be safest.

The sad thing is...even if you teach your kids to say no...to wait until marriage to take every precaution to not have sex and get pregnant...or you teach your son to respect women...don't pressure them ito doing something they aren't ready for etc...you still these days have the schools undermining what you teach at home and aiding and abetting children to hide things from their parents...especially in the area of sex and birth control.

The courts in some states have further undermined parental influence by allowing children as young as 14 to get abortions without a parents consent or knowledge and the child doesn't even have to let the parent know the procedure has been done.

It's a constant battle on a daily basis for the hearts and minds of our kids and the very people and institutions that should be working with us are very decidedly and purposely working against us.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Eugenics and Abortion
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2017, 07:32:28 pm »
The sad thing is...even if you teach your kids to say no...to wait until marriage to take every precaution to not have sex and get pregnant...or you teach your son to respect women...don't pressure them ito doing something they aren't ready for etc...you still these days have the schools undermining what you teach at home and aiding and abetting children to hide things from their parents...especially in the area of sex and birth control.

The courts in some states have further undermined parental influence by allowing children as young as 14 to get abortions without a parents consent or knowledge and the child doesn't even have to let the parent know the procedure has been done.

It's a constant battle on a daily basis for the hearts and minds of our kids and the very people and institutions that should be working with us are very decidedly and purposely working against us.
Every bit true, and it is getting worse. Now that the folks in the school systems have instituted sufficient lasciviousness to sate their appetites, they are instilling perversion and confusion as well.

It's tough being a parent nowadays.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline txradioguy

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Re: Eugenics and Abortion
« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2017, 07:37:32 pm »
Every bit true, and it is getting worse. Now that the folks in the school systems have instituted sufficient lasciviousness to sate their appetites, they are instilling perversion and confusion as well.

And that sometimes comes in the form of the school counselor that talks to your kids.

Quote
It's tough being a parent nowadays.

We made sure we stayed active at the school.  My wife was PTSO president and worked with the booster club...I was involved in a small way with the Football team and went to every wrestling match my son competed in.  It helped us know what was going on at school and keep a pulse on things the schools was doing where our kids were concerned.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

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Offline sneakypete

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Re: Eugenics and Abortion
« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2017, 08:37:49 pm »
What's the middle ground?  Simple - liberty and education.   Women must have the liberty to decide for themselves whether and when to procreate, and the education to make such choice a wise one.   Education allows a woman to effectively plan her pregnancy, or plan to prevent it.   Education helps to dispel the pressure to reproduce brought about by religious tribalism.   And liberty  - both the liberty of self-determination and economic self-sufficiency,  and liberty from the religion-fueled police power of the state - helps make sure that a child will be wanted and nurtured, and in turn educated to become a responsible member of the liberty-loving community.

@Jazzhead

Don't kid yourself. Women have always had that ability,and done to suit themselves. The only change is they are more vocal about that power these days.
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Offline sneakypete

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Re: Eugenics and Abortion
« Reply #13 on: June 27, 2017, 08:41:03 pm »


Seems when women were less 'educated', they were more responsible and fewer babies got shredded where they ought to be safest.

@Smokin Joe

Pure speculation.  Nobody knows how many pregnancies were ended early prior to modern times because nobody talked about it. Especially not the women.
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Offline Sighlass

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Re: Eugenics and Abortion
« Reply #14 on: June 27, 2017, 08:46:45 pm »
Oddly enough some of the areas most prone to "mass starvation" tend to be some of the least populated areas in the world.

Somalia 36 people per square mile. Compared to England 660 per square mile. Why is that?

"In the multitude of people is the king’s honor, but in the lack of people is the destruction of the prince" (Proverbs 14:28)

If one converted their thinking from "people = consumer" to "people = producers" perhaps the over population myth would disappear.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 08:48:17 pm by Sighlass »
Exodus 18:21 Furthermore, you shall select out of all the people able men who fear God, men of truth, those who hate dishonest gain; and you shall place these over them as leaders over ....