Author Topic: Cruz floats amendment to Senate healthcare bill  (Read 8429 times)

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Offline Chosen Daughter

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Re: Cruz floats amendment to Senate healthcare bill
« Reply #50 on: June 24, 2017, 03:44:57 am »
Five, now with Sen. Heller of Nevada.

And a thank you to Sen. Heller also.
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Oceander

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Re: Cruz floats amendment to Senate healthcare bill
« Reply #51 on: June 24, 2017, 03:51:36 am »
I'm still puzzled at the reason that the Federal government must regulate health care.  I can't find that in the Constitution no where. :shrug:

Commerce Clause.

Online Hoodat

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Re: Cruz floats amendment to Senate healthcare bill
« Reply #52 on: June 24, 2017, 04:19:23 am »
Commerce Clause.

The Federal government prohibits interstate commerce of health insurance.  Thus, the commerce clause is inapplicable.
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Oceander

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Re: Cruz floats amendment to Senate healthcare bill
« Reply #53 on: June 24, 2017, 04:25:42 am »
The Federal government prohibits interstate commerce of health insurance.  Thus, the commerce clause is inapplicable.

No, it isn't.

I'm not going to argue the issue; there is more than enough material out there for those who are curious in good faith that explains why.

Offline Bigun

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Re: Cruz floats amendment to Senate healthcare bill
« Reply #54 on: June 24, 2017, 12:38:26 pm »
No, it isn't.

I'm not going to argue the issue; there is more than enough material out there for those who are curious in good faith that explains why.

Of course!  Air can cross state lines so, according to some, breathing can be regulated under the commerce clause!  Never mind what the people who wrote it intended!

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Online Hoodat

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Re: Cruz floats amendment to Senate healthcare bill
« Reply #55 on: June 24, 2017, 01:01:44 pm »
Air is allowed to cross state lines.  The insurance contract between policy holder and insurer is not.
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Offline RetBobbyMI

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Re: Cruz floats amendment to Senate healthcare bill
« Reply #56 on: June 26, 2017, 02:00:38 pm »
Arguably there is an interstate market in health care -- people travel interstate to go to the Mayo Clinic or some of the major specialized hospitals in the New York metro area -- so the Commerce Clause applies, but there is no interstate market in health insurance (one of the problems we have), and Obamacare is almost entirely a scheme regulating health insurance.
One of the most wishy-washy arguments I've heard other that John Robert's that it's a Tax one.

Regulating insurance does NOTHING to control the out of control COST of getting medical aid.  Doctors control the prices negotiated with the insurance groups.
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Offline catfish1957

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Re: Cruz floats amendment to Senate healthcare bill
« Reply #57 on: June 26, 2017, 02:07:28 pm »
One of the most wishy-washy arguments I've heard other that John Robert's that it's a Tax one.



Speaking of investigations....   Would love to see what went down between the Obama admin, and SCOTUS prior to Robert's vote.
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Offline txradioguy

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Re: Cruz floats amendment to Senate healthcare bill
« Reply #58 on: June 26, 2017, 02:10:18 pm »
Speaking of investigations....   Would love to see what went down between the Obama admin, and SCOTUS prior to Robert's vote.

Almost makes you think they had pictures of him or something LOL!
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Cruz floats amendment to Senate healthcare bill
« Reply #59 on: June 26, 2017, 02:14:17 pm »
Yep. Offer the Cadillac plan and sell the Chevvies all day long.

I haven't read Cruz's amendment, but the immediate question I have is whether the ACA subsidies (e.g, the age-based (House bill) or income-based (Senate bill) tax credits) would be available for skinnier policies that don't cover the required "essential health benefits". 

If not, then the Cruz amendment may simply be allowing folks to forego the tax credits for the Cadillac and pay without subsidies for the Chevys.   
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Cruz floats amendment to Senate healthcare bill
« Reply #60 on: June 26, 2017, 02:24:33 pm »
If insurance companies are allowed to sell plans that do not conform to the Obamacare mandates what do you think will VERY RAPIDLY happen to those plans that DO conform?

It may depend on whether the mandate plans are propped up by subsidies/tax credits while skinnier plans are not.

 Remember also that no plan (it appears) may deviate from community rating.   A person with a pre-existing health condition can get a skinnier plan,  but the question then becomes whether he can then "move up" to a more comprehensive plan without restriction.   I suspect most of this can be addressed in regulations.   But I wouldn't be surprised if the bottom line is that I can get a skinny plan without regard to my pre-existing conditions, but if I later want to cover those conditions under a more comprehensive plan,  those conditions won't be covered until after, say, a one-year waiting period.   Which is exactly how it used to work in the old days!   
« Last Edit: June 26, 2017, 02:28:38 pm by Jazzhead »
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Cruz floats amendment to Senate healthcare bill
« Reply #61 on: June 26, 2017, 03:30:00 pm »
I haven't read Cruz's amendment, but the immediate question I have is whether the ACA subsidies (e.g, the age-based (House bill) or income-based (Senate bill) tax credits) would be available for skinnier policies that don't cover the required "essential health benefits". 

If not, then the Cruz amendment may simply be allowing folks to forego the tax credits for the Cadillac and pay without subsidies for the Chevys.   
When you consider the deductible for the Cadillac plan in this state is multiples of the deductible on my (essentially) catastrophic care plan was, I'd take the Chevy I had all day long, especially comparing the rates.

The 5K deductible plan that didn't cover a lot of stuff I didn't need cost 6K a year.
The 14K deductible "Cadillac" plan costs 28K a year.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2017, 03:34:00 pm by Smokin Joe »
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Cruz floats amendment to Senate healthcare bill
« Reply #62 on: June 26, 2017, 03:33:05 pm »
Almost makes you think they had pictures of him or something LOL!
Maybe a lot more than that. A couple credible perjurers might do the trick, provided, of course, there was nothing there, which just may not be the case.
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Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Cruz floats amendment to Senate healthcare bill
« Reply #63 on: June 26, 2017, 04:37:44 pm »
When you consider the deductible for the Cadillac plan in this state is multiples of the deductible on my (essentially) catastrophic care plan was, I'd take the Chevy I had all day long, especially comparing the rates.


Understood -  and I'm all for consumers having a choice.   For auto insurance, for example, drivers must typically purchase insurance to cover the harm they may do to others, but otherwise have the freedom to choose how much potential expense and liability they want to insure, or pay from their own pockets.   
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Offline Emjay

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Re: Cruz floats amendment to Senate healthcare bill
« Reply #64 on: June 26, 2017, 04:39:45 pm »
More choice .... this is a good thing.

Yes.  It's a tenuous thing with zero Democrats willing to help their country but this bill should satisfy four of the Republican holdouts.
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Cruz floats amendment to Senate healthcare bill
« Reply #65 on: June 26, 2017, 04:51:50 pm »
Understood -  and I'm all for consumers having a choice.   For auto insurance, for example, drivers must typically purchase insurance to cover the harm they may do to others, but otherwise have the freedom to choose how much potential expense and liability they want to insure, or pay from their own pockets.
But auto insurance is a whole 'nother critter. It's part of the responsibility you embrace when you decide to operate an automobile, which has the potential to injure others.

To be required to carry insurance just because you are here and breathing is wrong. The only way to not be penalized (or forced to buy the product) is to die.
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Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Cruz floats amendment to Senate healthcare bill
« Reply #66 on: June 26, 2017, 04:59:24 pm »
But auto insurance is a whole 'nother critter. It's part of the responsibility you embrace when you decide to operate an automobile, which has the potential to injure others.

To be required to carry insurance just because you are here and breathing is wrong. The only way to not be penalized (or forced to buy the product) is to die.

Again, understood.   The proposed GOP reforms would eliminate the tax associated with the "individual mandate".   That will, of course, directly lead to higher costs for insurance, but at least no one will be "forced" to buy.   Folks can continue to be free riders, and the rest of us will pay for their treatment.   
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Cruz floats amendment to Senate healthcare bill
« Reply #67 on: June 26, 2017, 05:26:42 pm »
Again, understood.   The proposed GOP reforms would eliminate the tax associated with the "individual mandate".   That will, of course, directly lead to higher costs for insurance, but at least no one will be "forced" to buy.   Folks can continue to be free riders, and the rest of us will pay for their treatment.   
There you go again, with the 'free rider' thing. If you don't need services, you haven't ridden anything 'free'. You didn't ride. The insurance companies aren't the only ones who can figure the actuarials. If you are an ordinarily reasonable driver, sober, not a druggie, and don't have 'extreme' hobbies or sexual proclivities, you often will go through your twenties without requiring major medical services. Coverage for extreme situations with high deductibles would actually come down in price if more signed up, and as a hedge against misfortune, that should be enough. If people are starting a family, they would want more and different coverage.
The biggest problem is the imposition of a single omnibus insurance plan on those who do not need the services, and charging those people for the service whether they want/need it or not. One size does not fit all.

However, it still doesn't change the fact that there is no Constitutional Authority for the Federal Government to be involved in health insurance at all.
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Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Emjay

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Re: Cruz floats amendment to Senate healthcare bill
« Reply #68 on: June 26, 2017, 05:51:49 pm »
@txradioguy

Exactly.  That bag-faced turtle, McConnell, stood on the stage at CPAC and said they would get rid of Obamacare "root and branch."

It's complicated but I trust Ted Cruz and I hope his amendment is included and this bill is passed.  It's much closer to perfect than the last bill.
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Offline LonestarDream

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Re: Cruz floats amendment to Senate healthcare bill
« Reply #69 on: June 26, 2017, 06:11:12 pm »
Yep. Offer the Cadillac plan and sell the Chevvies all day long.

Agree .  Glad to Cruz playing a role in moving the winning along.
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Cruz floats amendment to Senate healthcare bill
« Reply #70 on: June 26, 2017, 06:34:10 pm »
It's complicated but I trust Ted Cruz and I hope his amendment is included and this bill is passed.  It's much closer to perfect than the last bill.

It's better, but not in all respects.  Critically,  the ability for states to apply for a waiver has been limited as compared to what it was in the House bill.   In the House bill, a state could get a waiver not only to offer skinnier plans, but also with respect to community rating.   In the Senate bill, in response to concerns from centrists, waivers with respect to community rating cannot be obtained.  So the Senate bill, for once and for all, enshrines the key ObamaCare goal of nationwide community rating. 

That's a huge cost driver for medical insurance - the healthy must pay more to allow the sick to obtain insurance without regard to their pre-existing conditions.   I will not, for example, be able to pay less for a policy that doesn't cover my pre-existing condition for the first year - a common enough provision pre-ACA in many states that effectively kept premium costs down.     
« Last Edit: June 26, 2017, 06:35:10 pm by Jazzhead »
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Offline txradioguy

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Re: Cruz floats amendment to Senate healthcare bill
« Reply #71 on: June 26, 2017, 06:35:48 pm »
It's complicated but I trust Ted Cruz and I hope his amendment is included and this bill is passed.  It's much closer to perfect than the last bill.

It's not that complicated if the people we sent to DC would just do what they promised in regards to the ACA.
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Offline Sanguine

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Re: Cruz floats amendment to Senate healthcare bill
« Reply #72 on: June 26, 2017, 06:36:59 pm »
It's not that complicated if the people we sent to DC would just do what they promised in regards to the ACA.

But, by making it seem too complicated, they can take liberties they wouldn't otherwise be able to take!

Offline txradioguy

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Re: Cruz floats amendment to Senate healthcare bill
« Reply #73 on: June 26, 2017, 06:38:38 pm »
But, by making it seem too complicated, they can take liberties they wouldn't otherwise be able to take!

Sadly that's true...and people fall for it.
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Cruz floats amendment to Senate healthcare bill
« Reply #74 on: June 26, 2017, 06:47:31 pm »
But, by making it seem too complicated, they can take liberties they wouldn't otherwise be able to take!
Well, if they don't overcomplicate it, people might see it as a simple issue and figure out that they can figure it out.
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Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis