Something is fishy about USS Fitzgerald story we are getting from the media

[DB]

http://gcaptain.com/us-navy-destroyer-collides-container-ship/

The track shows that the containership was traveling on a course of 068 degrees and a speed of 18.5 knots prior to the collision. At 16:30 UTC the vessel alters course to starboard. We do not know if the course change was a result of the collision or an attempt to avoid it.



AIS Track of the ACX Crystal during the time of collision with the USS Fitzgerald Image via MarineTraffic.com.

It was claimed the transponder for the freighter was turned off. If that were true there would be no tracking of it as shown in the image you posted.

[thackney]

It was claimed the transponder for the freighter was turned off. If that were true there would be no tracking of it as shown in the image you posted.

I have not seen that claim.  I did see discussion that was possibly turned off for the Navy ship.

[DB]

http://gcaptain.com/us-navy-destroyer-collides-container-ship/

The track shows that the containership was traveling on a course of 068 degrees and a speed of 18.5 knots prior to the collision. At 16:30 UTC the vessel alters course to starboard. We do not know if the course change was a result of the collision or an attempt to avoid it.



AIS Track of the ACX Crystal during the time of collision with the USS Fitzgerald Image via MarineTraffic.com.

I don't know the scale of that image, but it looks like the first right turn was where it may have collided and after that they first resumed course but then decided to go back and check on the other ship. Once they did that they swung around and resumed course. But who knows...

[thackney]

Keep in mind for the following that the time of the collision is still disputed.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4617742/Shambolic-start-probe-USS-Fitzgerald-collision.html

There is a mysterious discrepancy between both sides on the timing of the crash
The cargo ship's Japanese owners say it happened at 1.30am on Saturday
The US Navy says that the collision occurred at 2.20am - nearly an hour apart
Defense experts say they do not know why the US Navy is sticking to this story
He says that the abrupt U-turn of the cargo ship was to examine what it hit 








Did they miss hitting the Naval Ship at 1:30 am?  Turn around to investigate and hit it as they returned?

[driftdiver]

Keep in mind for the following that the time of the collision is still disputed.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4617742/Shambolic-start-probe-USS-Fitzgerald-collision.html

There is a mysterious discrepancy between both sides on the timing of the crash
The cargo ship's Japanese owners say it happened at 1.30am on Saturday
The US Navy says that the collision occurred at 2.20am - nearly an hour apart
Defense experts say they do not know why the US Navy is sticking to this story
He says that the abrupt U-turn of the cargo ship was to examine what it hit 



Did they miss hitting the Naval Ship at 1:30 am?  Turn around to investigate and hit it as they returned?

So the cargo ship kept going for 30 mins before turning around?  That seems odd

[ABX]

It was claimed the transponder for the freighter was turned off. If that were true there would be no tracking of it as shown in the image you posted.

That claim came from the two anonymous letters being circulated by fringe sites, with no proof they are correct. People who want to believe the conspiracy just assume they are real. For all we know, a 12 year old on 4Chan wrote them.

[thackney]

So the cargo ship kept going for 30 mins before turning around?  That seems odd

http://gcaptain.com/investigators-seek-answers-into-containerships-collision-with-uss-fitzgerald/
June 19, 2017

Nearly an hour elapsed before a Philippine-flagged container ship reported a collision with a U.S. warship, the Japanese coastguard said on Monday, as investigations began into the accident in which seven U.S. sailors were killed....

...The collision happened at around 1:30 a.m. but it was not until 2:25 a.m. that the container ship informed the Japanese coastguard of the accident, said coastguard spokesman Takeshi Aikawa told Reuters.

He declined to elaborate on why the ship took nearly an hour to report the accident but said it could take ships time to notify authorities as they dealt with more urgent matters.

Right after being notified of the accident by the container vessel, the Japanese coastguard made contact with the U.S. ship and confirmed it, Aikawa said....

[240B]

It's simply not true.
What we are being told (fed) is nonsense. There is absolutely no way possible that this happened as it is being presented.

That destroyer was engaging the other vessel. The Captain was trying to stop or harass her.

He would have 'cut the bow' of the oncoming ship. Which is thoroughly against all accepted Maritime Law.

A Destroyer is going to have a speed of roughly 30 knots or more. There is no way a cargo ship can ram a Destroyer.

I'm sorry man. It simply cannot happen. I don't know what went on out there. But this story is pure bullshit. It is just not possible.

[Maj. Bill Martin]

It's simply not true.
What we are being told (fed) is nonsense. There is absolutely no way possible that this happened as it is being presented.

What, specifically, do you claim didn't happen?  That the collision was an accident?

A Destroyer is going to have a speed of roughly 30 knots or more. There is no way a cargo ship can ram a Destroyer.

Sure there is.  The destroyer may have been traveling at a much slower speed, possible to time it's arrival differently, or there was a course change at some point that made the container ship have a higher speed relative to its course.

It is just not possible.

Yes it is.

[ABX]

Never attribute to conspiracy what can easily be explained by incompetence.

[240B]

Yes it is.

No it is not possible.


The only way this collision could happen is for that Destroyer to be somehow in front of that ship's bow. That cannot happen. There are watch stations all over the ship that would have give warning. There are radar OS's that would have been screaming. There is a helmsman would see a ship coming.


No man, no, no, It can't happen that way. This is a wartime ship. If you are going to convince me that a 'warship' was rammed by a cargo freighter. No sir!


I respect you, but I will not eat boloney, and call it a steak.

[truth_seeker]

The best description of what happened, that I have read so far: the two vessels were both heading into the Japanese port, and were nearly parallel.

For some reason one turned into the other, and the bow of the cargo ship hit the side of the Navy ship.

The questions are many. Could a cargo ship crewman done this intentionally? Or was it the Navy ship, which changed course? Or both?

Was any of it intentional? Don't they both have instruments that warn of possible collision courses?

[EC]

I do suggest that anyone who hasn't done so click the link @Drago supplied in post 3. It's still speculation, but more informed speculation from seagoing types. Some interesting points there, and some information we'd never find on our own. For example, I had no idea that container ships can't really change speed while using heavy fuel oil.

[ABX]

The best description of what happened, that I have read so far: the two vessels were both heading into the Japanese port, and were nearly parallel.

For some reason one turned into the other, and the bow of the cargo ship hit the side of the Navy ship.

The questions are many. Could a cargo ship crewman done this intentionally? Or was it the Navy ship, which changed course? Or both?

Was any of it intentional? Don't they both have instruments that warn of possible collision courses?

Cargo ships often run auto-pilot out in the open water. I posted the port tracking link far up thread and that is a very, very busy area. It is very, very possible that the crew on the cargo ship were being lazy, left it on auto-pilot and/or weren't paying attention. Imagine busy shipping lanes with ships passing this close to each other at 20 knots or so, when one at a very last minute course drifts. It is hard to react.


Digging around, it is also not unheard of in these very busy shipping lanes.



A very similar accident a few years ago with a Japanese destroyer and cargo ship.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1223392/Inferno-Battle-extinguish-blaze-Japanese-naval-destroyer-hits-container-ship.html

[EC]

Military releases details about how USS Fitzgerald crashed

The Navy on Sunday revealed details of the final moments of seven sailors who died aboard a destroyer after it collided with a container ship near Japan — ripping open the warship and sending seawater gushing into the rooms where the men lay asleep.

“The damage was significant. This was not a small collision,” U.S. 7th Fleet commander Vice Adm. Joseph Aucoin said at a press conference in Yokosuka.

The Philippine-flagged ACX Crystal plowed into the far smaller USS Fitzgerald around 2:20 a.m. Saturday, “opening the hull to the sea” and rapidly flooding three large compartments that included two berthing areas for 116 crew members, Aucoin said.

The ship’s captain, Cmdr. Bryce Benson, was trapped inside his cabin, which was hit directly, Aucoin said. He survived but had to be airlifted to Naval Hospital Yokosuka, where he’s in stable condition.

The 300 brave sailors under his command quickly sprang into action to contain the flooding and save the boat from ending up at the bottom of the ocean — then navigated the damaged ship back into the busy port with only a magnetic compass and backup equipment.

“Heroic efforts prevented the flooding from catastrophically spreading which could have caused the ship to founder or sink. It could have been much worse,” Aucoin said.

More: http://nypost.com/2017/06/18/military-releases-details-about-how-uss-fitzgerald-crashed/

Still thin on detail. Japanese have a take, at least.

[driftdiver]

Makes it sound like the cargo ship did it intentionally

[240B]

The ship’s captain, Cmdr. Bryce Benson, was trapped inside his cabin


Sorry guys. I am. But I am not buying one single word of this bullshit. Something happened, we know that. The details do not make any sense.


The captain would be on the bridge pulling into port. I say, BULLSHIT!


The more I hear, the less I believe.

[Bigun]

It's simply not true.
What we are being told (fed) is nonsense. There is absolutely no way possible that this happened as it is being presented.

That destroyer was engaging the other vessel. The Captain was trying to stop or harass her.

He would have 'cut the bow' of the oncoming ship. Which is thoroughly against all accepted Maritime Law.

A Destroyer is going to have a speed of roughly 30 knots or more. There is no way a cargo ship can ram a Destroyer.

I'm sorry man. It simply cannot happen. I don't know what went on out there. But this story is pure bullshit. It is just not possible.

Anything is possible. But for this to happen to a very modern US warship would require some multiple of cluster F*-$ IMHO!

[ABX]

Anything is possible. But for this to happen to a very modern US warship would require some multiple of cluster F*-$ IMHO!

Not the first time between a destroyer and cargo ship in the same area. (albeit a Japanese destroyer but their tech is very similar to ours).
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1223392/Inferno-Battle-extinguish-blaze-Japanese-naval-destroyer-hits-container-ship.html

[DB]

Anything is possible. But for this to happen to a very modern US warship would require some multiple of cluster F*-$ IMHO!

In addition in this day and age, it would seem prudent to assume all other ships are potentially hostile. That you would keep enough distance between you and other shipping allowing options to respond to sudden changes in course by other ships.

[Maj. Bill Martin]

The ship’s captain, Cmdr. Bryce Benson, was trapped inside his cabin


Sorry guys. I am. But I am not buying one single word of this bullshit. Something happened, we know that. The details do not make any sense.


The captain would be on the bridge pulling into port. I say, BULLSHIT!


The more I hear, the less I believe.

Are you a Navy guy or something?  I went to the Naval Academy, and spent a few months on board Navy ships during some summers, so I was never a line officer in the Navy.  But what you're describing doesn't make sense.
The Captain would indeed be on the bridge when a ship is "pulling into port".  But the Fitz wasn't pulling into port --  it was hours away, and it is entirely normal for the Captain to be in his stateroom at that time of night.  Also, if this was some kind of planned intercept or something, the ship would have been at general quarters.  Nobody, including the sailors who were killed, would have been in their quarters sleeping.

Accidents like this happen because the Navy, unlike commercial ships, tracks more than just those few ships that potentially impede its course.  They're tracking far more targets, partially for tactical/security reasons, partially for training.  And because they're paying so much more attention to so many more ships, it's easier to miss one.

This is not the first collision between a Navy ship and a commercial ship, and it won't be the last.

[240B]

@Maj. Bill Martin
Are you a Navy guy or something?  I went to the Naval Academy, and spent a few months on board Navy ships during some summers, so I was never a line officer in the Navy.  But what you're describing doesn't make sense.

I agree. You are just repeating what I said. Look man, anytime a ship is in a strait, or on a mission, the Captain is on-deck. They will sleep up there if they have to.

I do not believe the facts that are being presented. I understand that you think maybe this was an accident. I get that.

You would never hit a ship I was ever on. If you ever tried, we would go down shooting. Fire control would be locked on, and the magazines would be loading.

It is not true that all ships go to general quarters, sometimes you just do what you do. If you are aboard a Naval vessel, at sea, then all of it is general quarters in a way. You are just waiting for the right time to start doing what you do.

There is no Cargo vessel that can ram a Destroyer. No. There is something else that we do not know

[XenaLee]

@Maj. Bill Martin
Are you a Navy guy or something?  I went to the Naval Academy, and spent a few months on board Navy ships during some summers, so I was never a line officer in the Navy.  But what you're describing doesn't make sense.

I agree. You are just repeating what I said. Look man, anytime a ship is in a strait, or on a mission, the Captain is on-deck. They will sleep up there if they have to.

I do not believe the facts that are being presented. I understand that you think maybe this was an accident. I get that.

You would never hit a ship I was ever on. If you ever tried, we would go down shooting. Fire control would be locked on, and the magazines would be loading.

It is not true that all ships go to general quarters, sometimes you just do what you do. If you are aboard a Naval vessel, at sea, then all of it is general quarters in a way. You are just waiting for the right time to start doing what you do.

There is no Cargo vessel that can ram a Destroyer. No. There is something else that we do not know

What if.....  it was really a NK ship that rammed our destroyer..... and the PTBs are lying about it.

[thackney]

@Maj. Bill Martin
Are you a Navy guy or something?  I went to the Naval Academy, and spent a few months on board Navy ships during some summers, so I was never a line officer in the Navy.  But what you're describing doesn't make sense.

I agree. You are just repeating what I said. Look man, anytime a ship is in a strait, or on a mission, the Captain is on-deck. They will sleep up there if they have to.

I do not believe the facts that are being presented. I understand that you think maybe this was an accident. I get that.

You would never hit a ship I was ever on. If you ever tried, we would go down shooting. Fire control would be locked on, and the magazines would be loading.

It is not true that all ships go to general quarters, sometimes you just do what you do. If you are aboard a Naval vessel, at sea, then all of it is general quarters in a way. You are just waiting for the right time to start doing what you do.

There is no Cargo vessel that can ram a Destroyer. No. There is something else that we do not know

Note that the collision location is not in the strait, or in the direct approach to port.

[thackney]

What if.....  it was really a NK ship that rammed our destroyer..... and the PTBs are lying about it.

There really is no question which ship hit the destroyer.