Author Topic: Do states have a right to flout 2A entitlements based on 10th amendment stipulations?  (Read 35565 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline LateForLunch

  • GOTWALMA Get Out of the Way and Leave Me Alone! (Nods to Teebone)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,349
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


"What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, December 20, 1787

"The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
- Thomas Jefferson, Commonplace Book


Think this through. One of the reasons we've had so much peace and prosperity is that heavy weapons have been removed from the general population. If they weren't, many situations where phalangist militant movements arose and eventually were extinguished or dried up might well have ballooned into major disruptions to the civil society the way it happens in muzz countries. One can't have it both ways. Either you trust government law enforcement and the armed forces to maintain the rule of law or the Republic collapses. That's part of the crisis Comey, Lynch, Holder,the Eightball, Hill-O-Lies and the 'Crats are creating by politicizing law enforcement.

Moral people are questioning the compact between the government and the People to maintain the civil integrity of law QED members of this forum believe there is less danger in returning to a time where heavy weapons were held and wielded by the general population because the government has become craven and mendacious, than to maintain the system as it has existed since the 1870s.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2017, 04:47:39 am by LateForLunch »
GOTWALMA Get out of the way and leave me alone! (Nods to General Teebone)

Offline INVAR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11,961
  • Gender: Male
  • Dread To Tread
    • Sword At The Ready
One can't have it both ways. Either you trust government law enforcement and the armed forces to maintain the rule of law or the Republic collapses.

You can take up Jefferson's quotes with him.   

The Republic was not built on the foundation of trust in government, but rather the mistrust of government power. 
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline Smokin Joe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 56,695
  • I was a "conspiracy theorist". Now I'm just right.
Think this through. One of the reasons we've had so much peace and prosperity is that heavy weapons have been removed from the general population. If they weren't, many situations where phalangist militant movements arose and eventually were extinguished or dried up might well have ballooned into major disruptions to the civil society the way it happens in muzz countries.
Considering that removal really only happened since 1934, no, not so much. Not many people can afford heavy weapons, or for that matter, even crew served weapons. But the Tiffany family donated two machine guns to Teddy Rooseveldt's outfit during the Spanish American war. They would not have been able to do that today without a lot of paperwork and arm twisting, and then not brand new ones.

Most of those who can afford them will not use them for nefarious ends, and the few who might would solve their 'problems' other ways if the people could shoot back.

 
Quote
One can't have it both ways. Either you trust government law enforcement and the armed forces to maintain the rule of law or the Republic collapses.

The law is the law, until some potentate in a black robe breaks it and says it isn't. We've seen enough of that with Roberts rewriting the letter of the ACA to make a penalty a tax so he could say it was all copacetic, even though the penalty/tax originated in the Senate and Revenue measures are Constitutionally mandated to originate in the House. So if you want to pick part of the egregious breakdown in the compact, that's as good a place as any. But there are other examples going much further back.

Quote
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (loosely translated "Who is guarding the guards?")
  Isn't a new thing at all.

Quote
That's part of the crisis Comey, Lynch, Holder,the Eightball, Hill-O-Lies and the 'Crats are creating by politicizing law enforcement.


And Janet Reno.. and her deputy (Holder again?) and Mayor Daly, and Governor Mandel, and and and.... I'm just saying the breakdown hasn't been so sudden, more like a slow rot or termites eating a wooden bridge. No one seems to notice until it falls down.
Quote
Moral people are questioning the compact between the government and the People to maintain the civil integrity of law QED members of this forum believe there is less danger in returning to a time where heavy weapons were held and wielded by the general population because the government has become craven and mendacious, than to maintain the system as it has existed since the 1870s.

Moral people should ALWAYS examine the behaviour of those elected to serve them, those appointed to positions of authority , from the lowliest meter maid on up. None in the service of the public is or should be immune to such scrutiny.

That isn't a license to witch hunt, but when there is evidence of wrongdoing, excusing it because "they are on our side' is just as much a violation of the rule of law as the "other side" doing  the same. In the end, we all lose.

As far as trusting implicity the government to have the overwhelming means to wreak destruction, they have no monopoly were the thousands of tons of legitimately owned and used explosives out there turned toward a destructive end. If they are trustworthy, then they can trust us.

In the end, despite not having them, I'd trust ME with those weapons more than I trust anyone else. Lots of others feel the same way.
 My wife's people trusted the GOvernment to give them a fair shake. That cost them ten million acres of land.

But that distrust, completely justifiable goes back a ways, too. Henry Plummer, Bannack MT , and the  Montana Vigilantes

The three numbers on the patch of the MT highway patrol aren't a date. They are the identification numbers of the three lead vigilantes, who dared not use their names for fear of (lethal) reprisal by the crooked sheriff.

As for jihadis and crazies, the government has long had the option to keep both under control. Consider "drug lords" are a government owned problem, too. Those cartels could have been stopped at the border if there was anything there to slow them down.  The jihadis could have been stopped by not letting them in, and the dangerously insane were at one time institutionalized.

Whatever happened to "Provide for the common defense"?--a seminal part of that compact, in the Preamble. 

Government has made that mess, on both counts, by its actions or lack of them, while it has been pursuing the citizenry for filling in mudholes and cattle eating the wrong grass.

The compact is broken. It is up to those in government to get their act together and fix it before the wheels come off.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Jazzhead

  • Blue lives matter
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11,593
  • Gender: Male
Thanks for the compliment, but I don't think you win me any friends with it!  ;-)


Ulp . . . .sorry about that.

Quote
  Actually, open-carry is not illegal in PA, except in Philly (and there, it's legal if you have a state license to carry). [Note: IANAL and this isn't legal advice.]

But that's beside your point.  To your point, I'd say that the same could be used for the marriage issue.  That anyone in the state must meet that state's definition of marriage.

Marriage equality does implicate the right to travel - one of the issues that's been cleared up is the right of a couple married in Massachusetts to maintain that status when they move to, say,  Illinois.  While state-by-state acceptance of marriage equality was growing prior to the SCOTUS's decision,  the real value of a solution at the federal level was the vindication of a married couple's right to travel and not have their legal status denied at a state border.

  If the right to marry is so fundamental that each state must offer full faith and credit,  one could plausibly argue that the gun right is equally fundamental so that travelers must have the freedom to count on the means of self-protection that they've legally qualified for in their home states.  It wouldn't shock me if the jurisprudence developed in conjunction with the marriage equality issue becomes relevant in the context of concealed carry permits (if not necessarily for open carry,  where I'm quite certain local rules will prevail.)   Gun owners may be thanking gays yet!   


Quote
My beliefs about the 2nd Amendment are based on history and original intent.  I believe the Constitution was written for the federal government.  I believe the Framers took it that way, that individual states would have their own constitutions and laws.  So I believe the 2nd Amendment put a restriction on federal laws, not state ones.

If you look at state constitutions, they often have provisions that would otherwise be redundant.  For example, the Pennsylvania Constitution has, as Section 21 of Article I, a provision on the right to keep and bear arms. 

I think that's probably correct as an historical matter.  The text of the Second Amendment suggests that to me.   
« Last Edit: June 19, 2017, 12:25:40 pm by Jazzhead »
It's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide

Offline ABX

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 900
  • Words full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
Do States have a right to flout 4th and 5th Amendment protections regarding due process, unreasonable search and seizure, and trial by jury?
Do States have a right to flout the 13th and 14th Amendment outlawing slavery and the right of one's life, liberty, and property being protected?
Do States have a right to flout the 15th Amendment giving the right to those of color the right to vote?


And so on and so on? 

Odd discussion that is still going on. I understand why, but if one sees wiggle room in the 2nd, why aren't all amendment's then game. Heck, if your State wants to institute some form of slavery, what's to stop them, individual rights be damned!

Offline Smokin Joe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 56,695
  • I was a "conspiracy theorist". Now I'm just right.
Do States have a right to flout 4th and 5th Amendment protections regarding due process, unreasonable search and seizure, and trial by jury?
Do States have a right to flout the 13th and 14th Amendment outlawing slavery and the right of one's life, liberty, and property being protected?
Do States have a right to flout the 15th Amendment giving the right to those of color the right to vote?


And so on and so on? 

Odd discussion that is still going on. I understand why, but if one sees wiggle room in the 2nd, why aren't all amendment's then game. Heck, if your State wants to institute some form of slavery, what's to stop them, individual rights be damned!
The provisions of the Bill of Rights were to deny the Federal Government, specifically, the authority to abridge and/or infringe upon the named rights, to state that list was not all-inclusive, and to reserve those powers to the States not delegated by the Constitution to the federal Government and the Rights to the people. Many Rights are specifically stated as Rights of the People, and since those Rights are not granted by government, but are natural (God-given) Rights, they are the property of all, equally, and to be safe from edict or law, no matter who passes it.

Supporting this is the phrase "...that all men are created equal, Endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, among these Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness..." found in the Declaration of Independence.  "Unalienable" being beyond the rule of man or law or court, divinely endowed and beyond the province of man, something which is, and which continues to exist no matter what anyone says.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Jazzhead

  • Blue lives matter
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11,593
  • Gender: Male
Odd discussion that is still going on. I understand why, but if one sees wiggle room in the 2nd, why aren't all amendment's then game.

Of course there's wiggle room in the Second Amendment.  No rights are absolute. My free speech right doesn't allow me to broadcast terroristic threats, or to sow panic in a public place.  My right to practice my religion doesn't allow me to refuse service in my restaurant or bakery in violation of antidiscrimination laws.   

  In Heller,  Scalia noted that guns rights were subject to reasonable regulation.   As I've noted earlier,  there's no precedent whatsoever that would abrogate a state's right to regulate open carry as unConstitutional.   The purpose of the RKBA is to allow a citizen the ability to protect hearth and home.   Not so he can go waving a firearm around in the public square.   
« Last Edit: June 19, 2017, 04:37:08 pm by Jazzhead »
It's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide

Offline Cyber Liberty

  • Coffee! Donuts! Kittens!
  • Administrator
  • ******
  • Posts: 80,137
  • Gender: Male
  • 🌵🌵🌵
Of course there's wiggle room in the Second Amendment.  No rights are absolute. My free speech right doesn't allow me to broadcast terroristic threats, or to sow panic in a public place.  My right to practice my religion doesn't allow me to refuse service in my restaurant or bakery in violation of antidiscrimination laws.   

  In Heller,  Scalia noted that guns rights were subject to reasonable regulation.   As I've noted earlier,  there's no precedent whatsoever that would abrogate a state's right to regulate open carry as unConstitutional.   The purpose of the RKBA is to allow a citizen the ability to protect hearth and home.   Not so he can go waving a firearm around in the public square.

Interesting.  So, the First Amendment allows participants in gay rights "pride" marches to wave around all sorts of things in the public square, but the Second doesn't allow people to wave around firearms.  I missed the part in the Second where it says "Shall not be infringed, unless somebody wants to wave his arms around the public square."  Was that next to the parts about Muskets?

You have about as much right to designate the limitations on the Second Amendment as you do to pass judgement on who or what is "conservative."
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed:

Offline Smokin Joe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 56,695
  • I was a "conspiracy theorist". Now I'm just right.
Of course there's wiggle room in the Second Amendment.  No rights are absolute. My free speech right doesn't allow me to broadcast terroristic threats, or to sow panic in a public place.  My right to practice my religion doesn't allow me to refuse service in my restaurant or bakery in violation of antidiscrimination laws.   

  In Heller,  Scalia noted that guns rights were subject to reasonable regulation.   As I've noted earlier,  there's no precedent whatsoever that would abrogate a state's right to regulate open carry as unConstitutional.   The purpose of the RKBA is to allow a citizen the ability to protect hearth and home.   Not so he can go waving a firearm around in the public square.
Wrong. Read the federalist Papers. The purpose of the Second Amendment was to ensure the citizenry would possess the weapons needed to defend their liberty should either the standing Federal Army (which was to be small) or the State Armies (Militias) went on a rampage and tried to take over the civil government.
Defending self and home are like hunting--incidental to the main purpose, which is as relevant as ever.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Jazzhead

  • Blue lives matter
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11,593
  • Gender: Male
Interesting.  So, the First Amendment allows participants in gay rights "pride" marches to wave around all sorts of things in the public square, but the Second doesn't allow people to wave around firearms.  I missed the part in the Second where it says "Shall not be infringed, unless somebody wants to wave his arms around the public square."  Was that next to the parts about Muskets?

You have about as much right to designate the limitations on the Second Amendment as you do to pass judgement on who or what is "conservative."

Well, now, that's a nonsensical post.   Perhaps you'll be the one to finally point out the court case - in over two centuries of American jurisprudence -  that holds that a state has no right under the Second Amendment to regulate open carry in the public square.   

Of course I have as much right to my opinions as you do.  But my opinions are grounded in fact, not fantasy.   The Second Amendment simply does not deny the states the ability to regulate open carry.   And as for conservatism - you're the one who wants a one-size-fits-all approach to the matter, dictated to the states by Federal fiat, not me.  The states are sovereign,  and my state has the right to accept or reject Texas-style gun culture as it sees fit.  That's a basic tenet of conservatism in the American context of federalism.   
It's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide

Offline Jazzhead

  • Blue lives matter
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11,593
  • Gender: Male
Wrong. Read the federalist Papers. The purpose of the Second Amendment was to ensure the citizenry would possess the weapons needed to defend their liberty should either the standing Federal Army (which was to be small) or the State Armies (Militias) went on a rampage and tried to take over the civil government.
Defending self and home are like hunting--incidental to the main purpose, which is as relevant as ever.

Wrong.  Read the Heller opinion.  The natural right of self defense lies behind the RKBA. 

But no matter.  Neither purpose is served by open carry in the public square.  That's subject to state and local regulation.   
It's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide

Offline Smokin Joe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 56,695
  • I was a "conspiracy theorist". Now I'm just right.
Well, now, that's a nonsensical post.   Perhaps you'll be the one to finally point out the court case - in over two centuries of American jurisprudence -  that holds that a state has no right under the Second Amendment to regulate open carry in the public square.   

Of course I have as much right to my opinions as you do.  But my opinions are grounded in fact, not fantasy.   The Second Amendment simply does not deny the states the ability to regulate open carry.   And as for conservatism - you're the one who wants a one-size-fits-all approach to the matter, dictated to the states by Federal fiat, not me.  The states are sovereign,  and my state has the right to accept or reject Texas-style gun culture as it sees fit.  That's a basic tenet of conservatism in the American context of federalism.
Part and parcel of the Constitution is an agreement to acknowledge certain fundamental and unalienable rights. "...the Right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." is plainly worded and needs no interpretation.

As for picking and choosing, this is the Constitution, here, not some Chinese Restaurant family dinner menu.

By your logic, every state has the power to regulate what stuff they can search without a warrant (or all of it), slavery, prayer in schools, and so much more, because they can pick and choose whatever they want or all or none.
 The person who is not causing problems of their own actions by carrying a weapon (and I won't count the quailing reaction of those unaccustomed to firearms who have a phobia) and is not using that weapon to harm or overtly threaten others won't change their nature because they cross an imaginary line. Yet by walking ten feet, one can go from being well within the law to being a Felon, without doing anything else different.


You can't have "full faith and credit" for "Rights" manufactured at the bench and not grant the same for Rights that are enumerated.
That logic won't work.

How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Jazzhead

  • Blue lives matter
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11,593
  • Gender: Male
Part and parcel of the Constitution is an agreement to acknowledge certain fundamental and unalienable rights. "...the Right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." is plainly worded and needs no interpretation.


Except that no court has ever agreed with you.  Ever.   The states retain their sovereign power to regulate open carry in the public square.   Note the wording of the 2A.  It describes a right of the "people", yet the Federal government - neither then or now - is sovereign with respect to the people.  The states are, under the 10th amendment - especially given the 2A's predicate clause, which is why I agree with Suppressed that, as far as the Founders were concerned, the 2A represents a check against federal authority, not the states. 
It's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide

Offline Smokin Joe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 56,695
  • I was a "conspiracy theorist". Now I'm just right.
Except that no court has ever agreed with you.  Ever.   The states retain their sovereign power to regulate open carry in the public square.   Note the wording of the 2A.  It describes a right of the "people", yet the Federal government - neither then or now - is sovereign with respect to the people.  The states are, under the 10th amendment - especially given the 2A's predicate clause, which is why I agree with Suppressed that, as far as the Founders were concerned, the 2A represents a check against federal authority, not the states.
It hasn't been tested. Without a case, how can any court agree?

Read the Federalist Papers if you want original intent. Every State had an Army prior to the War Between the States.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Jazzhead

  • Blue lives matter
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11,593
  • Gender: Male
It hasn't been tested. Without a case, how can any court agree?

If it hasn't been tested in over 200 years,  it would appear self-evidently true that the states can regulate open carry in the public square.   
It's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide

Offline Cyber Liberty

  • Coffee! Donuts! Kittens!
  • Administrator
  • ******
  • Posts: 80,137
  • Gender: Male
  • 🌵🌵🌵
Well, now, that's a nonsensical post.   Perhaps you'll be the one to finally point out the court case - in over two centuries of American jurisprudence -  that holds that a state has no right under the Second Amendment to regulate open carry in the public square.   

Of course I have as much right to my opinions as you do.  But my opinions are grounded in fact, not fantasy.   The Second Amendment simply does not deny the states the ability to regulate open carry.   And as for conservatism - you're the one who wants a one-size-fits-all approach to the matter, dictated to the states by Federal fiat, not me.  The states are sovereign,  and my state has the right to accept or reject Texas-style gun culture as it sees fit.  That's a basic tenet of conservatism in the American context of federalism.

I'm a nonsensical person, and a disgraceful one at that as you have told me many times.  Non-conservative too.

As such, I won't spend one iota of my time doing research for you because you'd just rubbish it anyway. 
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed:

Offline Smokin Joe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 56,695
  • I was a "conspiracy theorist". Now I'm just right.
If it hasn't been tested in over 200 years,  it would appear self-evidently true that the states can regulate open carry in the public square.   
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. The only thing that is self evident is that no case has reached SCOTUS.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline LateForLunch

  • GOTWALMA Get Out of the Way and Leave Me Alone! (Nods to Teebone)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,349
Except that no court has ever agreed with you.  Ever.   The states retain their sovereign power to regulate open carry in the public square.   Note the wording of the 2A.  It describes a right of the "people", yet the Federal government - neither then or now - is sovereign with respect to the people.  The states are, under the 10th amendment - especially given the 2A's predicate clause, which is why I agree with Suppressed that, as far as the Founders were concerned, the 2A represents a check against federal authority, not the states.

Well, your conclusion about agreement of courts is arguable since open carry is now being debated as a potentially Constitutional entitlement for which denial requires justification, not the other way around.

Legal arguments aside, what is it about open carry which bothers you? There is no statistical correlation between any aspect of open carry and higher crime rates. If anything it is correlated with lower violent crime rates. Are you opposed to lower violent crime rates?
GOTWALMA Get out of the way and leave me alone! (Nods to General Teebone)

Offline INVAR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11,961
  • Gender: Male
  • Dread To Tread
    • Sword At The Ready
The states are sovereign,  and my state has the right to accept or reject Texas-style gun culture as it sees fit.  That's a basic tenet of conservatism in the American context of federalism.

My state has the right to reject San-Francisco-style faggotry as it sees fit.  That is a basic tenet of Conservatism, Christianity and a civil society in the context of Federalism.

And I am happy to use my open-carry firearms to ensure that the perverted culture you push on us is rejected when people like you attempt to impose it via tyrannical court diktat.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline INVAR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11,961
  • Gender: Male
  • Dread To Tread
    • Sword At The Ready
Neither purpose is served by open carry in the public square.

Dead Wrong.

Open-Carry is a WONDERFUL incentive to those intent on mischief to think otherwise.

Open-Carry is a WONDERFUL disincentive to mischief and mayhem.

Open-Carry is a WONDERFUL declaration of natural rights that scream 'Don't mess with me'.

Only liberal snowflakes who do not trust other Americans with liberty take the positions that you do.

Which makes you an enemy of our natural rights.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline Cyber Liberty

  • Coffee! Donuts! Kittens!
  • Administrator
  • ******
  • Posts: 80,137
  • Gender: Male
  • 🌵🌵🌵
Legal arguments aside, what is it about open carry which bothers you?

This may be unfair of me to point this out (maybe even disgraceful), but JH's arguments remind me very much of the arguments I've heard from Mrs. Liberty's niece.  In the abstract she claims to be four-square in favor of the Second Amendment, but when it comes to her backyard, she's very anti-gun.  She even claims the proper conservative position is to let her grab all the guns in her community to keep rednecks from trumping her right to "feel secure."

She's terrified of the very look of a firearm, especially pistols.  I had to lock up my display pieces when she came to visit.  Classic definition of "Hoplophobe."  I had to laugh last year when her state went Constitutional Carry after the legislature overrode a liberal Democrat Governor's veto to do it.  Now the evil rednecks don't even have to get a by-your-leave from the government to carry concealed.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed:

Offline Jazzhead

  • Blue lives matter
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11,593
  • Gender: Male
I'm a nonsensical person, and a disgraceful one at that as you have told me many times.  Non-conservative too.

As such, I won't spend one iota of my time doing research for you because you'd just rubbish it anyway.

Stop being so damn sensitive.  I called your post nonsensical, not you.   I fail to see the connection between openly waving a rifle in public to homosexuals waving their (presumably this is what you meant) penises in a public parade.   Indecent exposure is not protected by the First Amendment,  and open carry is not protected by the Second Amendment.  Laws, if any, involving either are the province of state or local government, not the federal leviathan.

Be thankful you live in Texas.  Just as I'm thankful to live in Pennsylvania.   To each his own - THAT's conservatism.   
It's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide

Offline Doug Loss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,360
  • Gender: Male
  • Proud Tennessean
If it hasn't been tested in over 200 years,  it would appear self-evidently true that the states can regulate open carry in the public square.   

If it hasn't been tested in over 200 years, it could just as likely (moreso, actually) mean that the plain meaning of the words of the 2nd and 14th amendments was obvious to everyone and no test was needed.  It's only when you try to squint and parse words to mean what they clearly don't that you get into the kind of silliness you're promulgating.
My political philosophy:

1) I'm not bothering anybody.
2) It's none of your business.
3) Leave me alone!

Offline Jazzhead

  • Blue lives matter
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11,593
  • Gender: Male
My state has the right to reject San-Francisco-style faggotry as it sees fit.  That is a basic tenet of Conservatism, Christianity and a civil society in the context of Federalism.

And I am happy to use my open-carry firearms to ensure that the perverted culture you push on us is rejected when people like you attempt to impose it via tyrannical court diktat.

So now you're advocating violence against homosexuals?   Somehow that doesn't surprise me in the least, INVAR. 
It's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide

Offline Jazzhead

  • Blue lives matter
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11,593
  • Gender: Male
If it hasn't been tested in over 200 years, it could just as likely (moreso, actually) mean that the plain meaning of the words of the 2nd and 14th amendments was obvious to everyone and no test was needed.  It's only when you try to squint and parse words to mean what they clearly don't that you get into the kind of silliness you're promulgating.

States and local communities have regulated open carry for over 200 years.   Yet no one's successfully brought a case under the 2A to challenge it in all that time.   What's obvious to everyone is that you haven't the foggiest notion of federalism and the sovereignty of the several states.   

It's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide