Why is cladding banned in the US and Germany used on buildings in the UK?

[Smokin Joe]

Thanks!  We take great pride in our monster beer coolers...I mean refrigerators.   

@EC I thought you folks drank it warm, which would negate the need for so much fridge.

[EC]

One would fill my kitchen - kitchen is 10' x 16'

[DB]

A mix of propane and isobutane. About 95% of the fridges in the UK run that coolant mix. Since our fridges and freezers are much smaller (it's not that we chill less stuff, it's that most homes don't have the physical space for the monsters you guys use) the amount of gas involved is tiny. Throw in that our houses are much less of a fire hazard to begin with - it's all brick, cement block, or precast concrete construction with tile or slate roofs - and it's not a huge risk.

The risk is the gas leaking into the refrigerator's inside cabinet where things are cooled. They are pretty air tight to maintain efficiency. That means the gas doesn't dissipate quickly and waits for an ignition source. Then it goes boom. If the gas leaked into the open space of the house, it is much less likely to a major fireball due to the limited amount of gas.

It was reported that a refrigerator exploded causing the fire. Unless they were making meth it would seem likely the source of the fire was the refrigerant.

[EC]

It happens - rarely. Between 2006 and 2009 4 fridges exploded. (only time period I could find figures for). Our fridge linings are one piece solid casts, and the coolant pipes are embedded in the solid insulation - no cracks for the gas to seep in through unless the owner damages the fridge in use.

Still a stupid idea to use flammables as coolants. 

[DB]

It happens - rarely. Between 2006 and 2009 4 fridges exploded. (only time period I could find figures for). Our fridge linings are one piece solid casts, and the coolant pipes are embedded in the solid insulation - no cracks for the gas to seep in through unless the owner damages the fridge in use.

Still a stupid idea to use flammables as coolants. 

I don't know, how many exploding refrigerators does it take? Especially considering there are simple alternatives short of what the enviro-nuts want.

[Smokin Joe]

The risk is the gas leaking into the refrigerator's inside cabinet where things are cooled. They are pretty air tight to maintain efficiency. That means the gas doesn't dissipate quickly and waits for an ignition source. Then it goes boom. If the gas leaked into the open space of the house, it is much less likely to a major fireball due to the limited amount of gas.

It was reported that a refrigerator exploded causing the fire. Unless they were making meth it would seem likely the source of the fire was the refrigerant.

For it to burn, it has to be in the right concentration range.  Between 2.1 and 9.5% in air for propane, according to https://www.mathesongas.com/pdfs/products/Lower-(LEL)-&-Upper-(UEL)-Explosive-Limits-.pdf
Isobutane between 1.8 and 8.4%.
That's a fairly narrow flammable range for either gas.
The mix would have to be just right, neither too rich, nor too lean, at the time an ignition source was present (spark or open flame) to burn.  For it to explode violently, the mix would fall into even narrower ranges.

When the guy I know who used propane for a refrigerant in his Tractor AC did so, he took that into account as well, because any coolant leaks would be to atmosphere outside the cab, and the likelihood of that being ignited on a diesel tractor was very low in the event of a leak.

[Smokin Joe]

It happens - rarely. Between 2006 and 2009 4 fridges exploded. (only time period I could find figures for). Our fridge linings are one piece solid casts, and the coolant pipes are embedded in the solid insulation - no cracks for the gas to seep in through unless the owner damages the fridge in use.

Still a stupid idea to use flammables as coolants. 

Out of how many fridges? 

Not  a huge risk for any one individual door opening event, kinda like winning the lottery. Still, it happens. Is your tort law more constrained than it is in the US in terms or allowed recovery of punitive and compensatory damages and damages for 'pain and suffering'?

[EC]

Out of how many fridges? 

Not  a huge risk for any one individual door opening event, kinda like winning the lottery. Still, it happens. Is your tort law more constrained than it is in the US in terms or allowed recovery of punitive and compensatory damages and damages for 'pain and suffering'?

We don't allow people to seek damages for pain and suffering, nor are individuals allowed to seek punitive damages. They may be awarded at the discretion of the judge, but they may not be sought.

On the homeowner level (Rental is different) for something like an exploding fridge, you talk to your house insurance. They sue the manufacturer (or contractor or whatever) while your house is being fixed.

[EC]

Adding one correction - punitive damages may be sought for malicious actions.

[Smokin Joe]

Adding one correction - punitive damages may be sought for malicious actions.

Well, there's the difference. In the States, 'victims' would be suing everyone from the manufacturer to the architect, the contractor(s), whoever signed off on whatever (if not covered by sovereign immunity clauses) and the settlements would likely be the end of the companies involved, especially in a situation like this.

Malice would be really tough to prove versus ignorance, or negligence--especially if what was done complied with building codes.

[Bigun]

Thanks!  We take great pride in our monster beer coolers...I mean refrigerators.   

@Cyber Liberty  @EC

Something the UK knows nothing about!   

[EC]

An interesting development:

Grenfell Tower cladding is banned in UK, Government says

The cladding used to insulate Grenfell Tower, widely blamed for spreading the devastating blaze, is banned in Britain, Philip Hammond has said.

The Chancellor said a criminal investigation would examine whether building regulations had been violated when the block underwent an extensive renovation that was concluded last year.

But a firm involved in the renovation of the tower denied that the cladding was banned and said building regulations allowed it for use in low-rise and high-rise developments.

Mr Hammond insisted the Government had acted on safety recommendations after an earlier fire in London in 2009, but it would wait for the public inquiry's findings before making any changes in regulation.

Although a planning application for the refurbishment of Grenfell Tower approved the use of Reynobond/Reynolux cladding, it did not appear to specify the use of the fire resistant version of the panels.

http://news.sky.com/story/grenfell-tower-cladding-is-banned-in-uk-government-says-10919319

If true - Hammond is so full of shit he squeaks, so who the hell knows right now - heads WILL be on pikes for this.

[Smokin Joe]

Although a planning application for the refurbishment of Grenfell Tower approved the use of Reynobond/Reynolux cladding, it did not appear to specify the use of the fire resistant version of the panels.

If true - Hammond is so full of shit he squeaks, so who the hell knows right now - heads WILL be on pikes for this.

The only question is one of whose heads will be on the pikes when the smoke clears.

From the images of the flats they showed in another article, that was practically a blast furnace inside. The recovery teams are likely sifting for teeth and bits of bone, and the teeth may even be fragmented. Identification will be tough indeed.

There is no worse feeling as a firefighter than knowing there are people inside you can't help. Prayers up for the firefighters and medics, too.