Why is cladding banned in the US and Germany used on buildings in the UK?

[RoosGirl]

I believe the early accounts said yes, and no, respectively.

If that is the case I would think a malfunctioning fire suppression system more to blame than PE in the middle the of cladding they use.  Even here we use wood and OSB to cheaply build apartments; they all are supposed to have a properly designed (and working) fire suppression system.

I do somewhat agree with the comments regarding saving the $10k for the non-flammable cladding, but my guess is that is not the only item that was "skimped" on, so what was $10k for one line item was probably much higher savings for a longer list of similar cuts.  I'm not excusing it, but just adding an additional layer to the complexity of the situation.

[DB]

If that is the case I would think a malfunctioning fire suppression system more to blame than PE in the middle the of cladding they use.  Even here we use wood and OSB to cheaply build apartments; they all are supposed to have a properly designed (and working) fire suppression system.

I do somewhat agree with the comments regarding saving the $10k for the non-flammable cladding, but my guess is that is not the only item that was "skimped" on, so what was $10k for one line item was probably much higher savings for a longer list of similar cuts.  I'm not excusing it, but just adding an additional layer to the complexity of the situation.

That cladding allowed the fire to travel from the 4th floor to the top in about 15 minutes. That's devastating. A working fire sepression system should have prevented the fire from the refrigerator from starting the flat on fire. There a MANY things wrong with what happened. Firebomb refrigerators. Firebomb cladding. Apparently non-functional sprinkler system, poorly designed single stairway used for fire exit, etc...

[RoosGirl]

That cladding allowed the fire to travel from the 4th floor to the top in about 15 minutes. That's devastating. A working fire sepression system should have prevented the fire from the refrigerator from starting the flat on fire. There a MANY things wrong with what happened. Firebomb refrigerators. Firebomb cladding. Apparently non-functional sprinkler system, poorly designed single stairway used for fire exit, etc...

Yes! Many things wrong.  That's what I was trying to get at.  Thank you.

[Cyber Liberty]

That cladding allowed the fire to travel from the 4th floor to the top in about 15 minutes. That's devastating. A working fire sepression system should have prevented the fire from the refrigerator from starting the flat on fire. There a MANY things wrong with what happened. Firebomb refrigerators. Firebomb cladding. Apparently non-functional sprinkler system, poorly designed single stairway used for fire exit, etc...

I'm sure a lot of this has been known for a while, but nobody cared because it's "council housing." 

[DB]

I'm sure a lot of this has been known for a while, but nobody cared because it's "council housing."

The key is, did it meet fire code. If it did, the fault starts there. If it didn't and the council cut corners, that is something else altogether.

[Cyber Liberty]

The key is, did it meet fire code. If it did, the fault starts there. If it didn't and the council cut corners, that is something else altogether.

I agree 100%.  And the fire code for "council housing" had better be the same code used elsewhere.  It's at times like this I really, really hate the term "beggars can't be choosers."  I don't care if they're poor, they deserve to live.

[bigheadfred]

You would think there would be a ban on flammable construction materials from way back for multi-family dwellings.

[RoosGirl]

The key is, did it meet fire code. If it did, the fault starts there. If it didn't and the council cut corners, that is something else altogether.

I don't know.  I am pretty sure that even if it met code, whether a professional engineer would be held in account.  I am pretty sure that, at least here in the States, he would be.  I am thinking of some disciplinary cases where there was a mistake(s) on plans, the reviewer did not catch and approved the plans anyway and there was some kind of failure.  In these types of cases the engineer is at fault.

[Cyber Liberty]

You would think there would be a ban on flammable construction materials from way back for multi-family dwellings.

That's hard to categorize.  For example, wood flams.  You would think firefighters would be delighted at the prospect of builders going to all-metal studs, but talk to a fireman and you'll find most hate the idea.  Even though wood burns, it still holds up a load longer than metal which goes soft very quickly in a house fire.

[RoosGirl]

You would think there would be a ban on flammable construction materials from way back for multi-family dwellings.

No, it just requires a different kind of fire suppression.

[Cyber Liberty]

I don't know.  I am pretty sure that even if it met code, whether a professional engineer would be held in account.  I am pretty sure that, at least here in the States, he would be.  I am thinking of some disciplinary cases where there was a mistake(s) on plans, the reviewer did not catch and approved the plans anyway and there was some kind of failure.  In these types of cases the engineer is at fault.

Floor collapse in Kansas City (I think.  Could have been St. Louis) that killed at least a hundred people is a good example of that.  An engineer approved a change in the plans that substantially weakened the vertical supports.

[bigheadfred]

No, it just requires a different kind of fire suppression.

I should have been more specific as per the cladding used.

[Smokin Joe]

There were a great many like that in use here years ago as well.  Probably still are in some rural areas.   BTW: take a look at how well the light bulbs in new refigerators are protected.  There is a reason for that!

If they are those mercury containing fluorescent things, they should be well protected. Break one and your fridge would be a hazmat site.

[Smokin Joe]

If that is the case I would think a malfunctioning fire suppression system more to blame than PE in the middle the of cladding they use.  Even here we use wood and OSB to cheaply build apartments; they all are supposed to have a properly designed (and working) fire suppression system.

I do somewhat agree with the comments regarding saving the $10k for the non-flammable cladding, but my guess is that is not the only item that was "skimped" on, so what was $10k for one line item was probably much higher savings for a longer list of similar cuts.  I'm not excusing it, but just adding an additional layer to the complexity of the situation.

In the US, framing a house, you are required to have fire stops in the walls (a section of stud that goes across from stud to stud). It is hard to believe there were no fire stops in the flue space created by the cladding for the height of the building.

[Smokin Joe]

I agree 100%.  And the fire code for "council housing" had better be the same code used elsewhere.  It's at times like this I really, really hate the term "beggars can't be choosers."  I don't care if they're poor, they deserve to live.

Yep. It's really hard to work your way up when you're dead.

[Cyber Liberty]

Yep. It's really hard to work your way up when you're dead.

Some societies don't let you work your way up when you're alive.  It grieves me.

[RoosGirl]

In the US, framing a house, you are required to have fire stops in the walls (a section of stud that goes across from stud to stud). It is hard to believe there were no fire stops in the flue space created by the cladding for the height of the building.

Thank you for that info.  I had always seen those fire stops in the walls of house my daddy and granddaddy built, but I never knew that is what they were until just now! 

[Bigun]

If they are those mercury containing fluorescent things, they should be well protected. Break one and your fridge would be a hazmat site.

That may be one reason but it isn't the one I was thinking of.  A fellow I know, who once worked for Dupont at a VERY high level of management,  once told me that the stuff they replaced the now-banned CFCs with is explosive!

[Bigun]

Some societies don't let you work your way up when you're alive.  It grieves me.

And the one we live in is getting very close to joining them!

[Smokin Joe]

Thank you for that info.  I had always seen those fire stops in the walls of house my daddy and granddaddy built, but I never knew that is what they were until just now!

Yep. They aren't perfect, but they do slow the progress of a fire inside the wall from outlet level to ceiling by stopping things about chair rail height in the wall. That way, if some siring goes bad down there, hopefully the damage will be more limited, or anyone inside gets a little longer to get out.

[roamer_1]

There were a great many like that in use here years ago as well.  Probably still are in some rural areas.   BTW: take a look at how well the light bulbs in new refigerators are protected.  There is a reason for that!

Still are here too... Shoot, I have often been out cutting ice on the lake to fill the root cellar - Pack it in sawdust and you have a refrigerator all summer long... that don't burn down btw...

[DB]

In the US, framing a house, you are required to have fire stops in the walls (a section of stud that goes across from stud to stud). It is hard to believe there were no fire stops in the flue space created by the cladding for the height of the building.

Just to add to that, firewalls are required between the garage and the living space in a typical US home. That includes the attic space between the two sections.

I read a report yesterday that some of the mechanical runs for the pipes in the London building were open between floors due to the work that was being done. So there may well have been an internal to the building cavity going up through all the floors without firebreaks. Very bad.

[bigheadfred]

Just to add to that, firewalls are required between the garage and the living space in a typical US home. That includes the attic space between the two sections.

I read a report yesterday that some of the mechanical runs for the pipes in the London building were open between floors due to the work that was being done. So there may well have been an internal to the building cavity going up through all the floors without firebreaks. Very bad.

I only worked on a few stick frame apartment buildings and each apartment was separated by firewalls.  It seems like they may have circumvented their fire rules by cladding the building in a flammable, instead of a fire resistant material. But I don't know that as a fact. In any case it seems like a dumb thing to do.

[EC]

That's a good question.

@EC I have another question, and I understand it could be premised in BS.  I've never been to your country, but I have watched my share of silly BBC TV shows on PBS, and I want to ask you about refrigerators, which is allegedly where this fire started.  I've noticed you tend to small fridges because, I guess, you don't chill as many things as we do over here.  Mrs. Liberty told me the refrigerators in the building were propane powered.  RVs use that kind of refrigerator here, but I've never seen them used in a residence.  Is there any truth to that?  Seems like that would be an extreme fire hazard.

A mix of propane and isobutane. About 95% of the fridges in the UK run that coolant mix. Since our fridges and freezers are much smaller (it's not that we chill less stuff, it's that most homes don't have the physical space for the monsters you guys use) the amount of gas involved is tiny. Throw in that our houses are much less of a fire hazard to begin with - it's all brick, cement block, or precast concrete construction with tile or slate roofs - and it's not a huge risk.

[Cyber Liberty]

A mix of propane and isobutane. About 95% of the fridges in the UK run that coolant mix. Since our fridges and freezers are much smaller (it's not that we chill less stuff, it's that most homes don't have the physical space for the monsters you guys use) the amount of gas involved is tiny. Throw in that our houses are much less of a fire hazard to begin with - it's all brick, cement block, or precast concrete construction with tile or slate roofs - and it's not a huge risk.

Thanks!  We take great pride in our monster beer coolers...I mean refrigerators.