How two cutting edge U.S. nuclear projects bankrupted Westinghouse

[IsailedawayfromFR]

Of a US only nuclear price, and with no comparison to coal price.

Do you believe obstructionism of environmentalists and bureaucrats is the reason China produces so much more electrical power by coal over nuclear?



You must not have much to back up your claim if you have to accuse the messenger rather than address the message.  I'm an electrical engineer, working in oil/gas industry for the last few decades, mostly Natural Gas liquids the last few years.

I think he is seeing this to make his point. 

If coal was less expensive, then why is China on this nuclear tear?

@thackney
@driftdiver

[thackney]

If coal was less expensive, then why is China on this nuclear tear?

Beijing’s deadly air pollution has forced it to close all of its large coal-power plants
https://qz.com/939086/beijings-deadly-air-pollution-has-forced-it-to-close-its-last-coal-power-plant-and-seek-cleaner-fuels/

Coal Burning Causes the Most Air Pollution Deaths in China, Study Finds
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/18/world/asia/china-coal-health-smog-pollution.html?_r=0

[IsailedawayfromFR]

Beijing’s deadly air pollution has forced it to close all of its large coal-power plants
https://qz.com/939086/beijings-deadly-air-pollution-has-forced-it-to-close-its-last-coal-power-plant-and-seek-cleaner-fuels/

Coal Burning Causes the Most Air Pollution Deaths in China, Study Finds
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/18/world/asia/china-coal-health-smog-pollution.html?_r=0

So your belief is that it is cheaper for them to install new nuclear power plants than to build/retrofit the coal fired plant to catch the pollutants?

[driftdiver]

Chinas coal problem.   Its now being felt in Japan and South Korea as the pollution works its way out. 

[thackney]

From the World Nuclear Association, hardly a coal-biased source:

Coal is, and will probably remain, economically attractive in countries such as China, the USA and Australia, as long as carbon emissions are cost-free.

http://www.world-nuclear.org/information-library/economic-aspects/economics-of-nuclear-power.aspx

[thackney]

So your belief is that it is cheaper for them to install new nuclear power plants than to build/retrofit the coal fired plant to catch the pollutants?

They are far past the point of minor reductions their emissions.  China is planning to selectively retrofit High Temperature rated coal plants with a Nuclear reactor.  But nowhere do you see a discussion of this being cheaper than coal, only cleaner, including the CO2 arguments of pollution.

Starting in 2018, China will begin turning coal plants into nuclear reactors
https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/239588-starting-2018-china-will-begin-turning-coal-plants-nuclear-reactors

[driftdiver]

From the World Nuclear Association, hardly a coal-biased source:

Coal is, and will probably remain, economically attractive in countries such as China, the USA and Australia, as long as carbon emissions are cost-free.

http://www.world-nuclear.org/information-library/economic-aspects/economics-of-nuclear-power.aspx

The cost of a modern clean coal plant is comparable to that of a nuclear plant.  Many variables of course but Dukes Carolina plant was about $3B or about $3,500/kW.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

They are far past the point of minor reductions their emissions.  China is planning to selectively retrofit High Temperature rated coal plants with a Nuclear reactor.  But nowhere do you see a discussion of this being cheaper than coal, only cleaner, including the CO2 arguments of pollution.

Starting in 2018, China will begin turning coal plants into nuclear reactors
https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/239588-starting-2018-china-will-begin-turning-coal-plants-nuclear-reactors

I wonder what might be unsaid somewhere is that China has spurted the growth of nuclear plant components greatly and is using this new advantage to significantly grow its nuclear power?

Seems it would be an indigenous industry for the most part like coal is?

Just speculating. 

And is arresting the pollutants from existing plants just a 'minor reduction'?  I think I read they can be brought down by upwards of 90%.

[driftdiver]

Not many good unbiased sources which provide a comparison.  Wiki does seem to have some good information - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_of_electricity_by_source

Using this the costs vary significantly by country.   In general the dirty coal is cheaper.   The clean coal (with gasification) is more expensive then nuclear.   Depends on the country though.   

[driftdiver]

I wonder what might be unsaid somewhere is that China has spurted the growth of nuclear plant components greatly and is using this new advantage to significantly grow its nuclear power?

Seems it would be an indigenous industry for the most part like coal is?

Just speculating. 

And is arresting the pollutants from existing plants just a 'minor reduction'?  I think I read they can be brought down by upwards of 90%.

In china they also use coal to heat houses.   These are put in concrete ovens which heat water which is then run through pipes in the floor.

[Joe Wooten]

Well, it looks like the Vogtle project will continue on with construction.

http://www.powermag.com/georgia-power-southern-nuclear-to-take-over-plant-vogtle-work/?mkt_tok=eyJpIjoiTWpaallqSTVaakV4TXpnNCIsInQiOiJ0MkxianVPOFljWEZZQ1EyRzNhMitYREFvT1Z5UDUxcjgrekxvMGFvamhxMzRvbDVuQmZmdWhUaTR2T1Q1U2Zpd29LMHpneDA4QkJVSno5N3JUTE5ja01HbFhaeXlGUDdmY3RvTDMyYmdvZnVheElDbDg2TFVqcmtZbDVNMVB0QyJ9

[thackney]

@Joe Wooten

Do you have an opinion about how capable Georgia Power and fellow Southern Co. subsidiary Southern Nuclear are of managing such a project?  I recognize they can effectively get other power plants built, but is the management of a nuke plant construction (and the associated paperwork) outside their likely abilities?

[Joe Wooten]

@Joe Wooten

Do you have an opinion about how capable Georgia Power and fellow Southern Co. subsidiary Southern Nuclear are of managing such a project?  I recognize they can effectively get other power plants built, but is the management of a nuke plant construction (and the associated paperwork) outside their likely abilities?

I don't know. Rumor has it that consultants from Bechtel or Fluor will be brought in to take over the management.

[thackney]

I don't know. Rumor has it that consultants from Bechtel or Fluor will be brought in to take over the management.

Okay, that makes sense, even if only advisory role.  I suspect the admin requirements of nuke construction to be greatly underestimated by those not so experienced.

[Joe Wooten]

I work for Westinghouse. It's both more complex than the article states, but the simple  answer is senior management screw-ups by guys who had a serious lobotomies when they moved up the ranks into those positions from Engineering. They let a con man convince them to use his newly acquired AE (S&W) firm along with his piping manufacturer to build the modules and design the plant. We had very little construction management and manufacturing experience (as did S&W) and tried to do too much without going to one of experienced firms (Fluor or Bechtel) for help.

Site construction productivity is abysmal. I hope Fluor can get it moving again.

Well, it looks like some of the former senior management types are now feeling the pain of their decisions.

http://www.stltoday.com/business/local/bankrupt-westinghouse-stops-paying-pensions-to-retired-top-execs/article_91f00fe7-0f51-5aa8-b05e-7d9741cc9942.html

[rodamala]

All of this coal vs. nukes vs. natural gas discussion is bullshit.  No American energy company does ANY new construction without some sort of tax incentive, low interest givernment loan, or grant to help fund new construction (or comply with new regulations).  Solar gets a lot of flak for this, but it's like this everywhere.  Corporate welfare.  This is the new Americana.

[thackney]

All of this coal vs. nukes vs. natural gas discussion is bullshit.  No American energy company does ANY new construction without some sort of tax incentive, low interest givernment loan, or grant to help fund new construction (or comply with new regulations). 

I do not believe that has been true for all the new Natural Gas Combined Cycle Power Turbines built in the last 5 years.  The combination of efficiencies reaching 60% and up along with a "low" cost of Natural Gas made them them very economic.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

All of this coal vs. nukes vs. natural gas discussion is bullshit.  No American energy company does ANY new construction without some sort of tax incentive, low interest givernment loan, or grant to help fund new construction (or comply with new regulations).  Solar gets a lot of flak for this, but it's like this everywhere.  Corporate welfare.  This is the new Americana.

pretty brash statement.  Can you send a link to the source that backs this up or is this just your sole opinion?

I worked for an energy company for over 40 years, most of the time as an economist evaluating economics of energy projects.

I can tell you most forcefully that of the thousands of evaluations made the ones that had tax, loan or other govt incentives that were more than incidental to a project could be counted on one hand.

Decisions were invariably made by the intrinsic value contribution of that project, not holding out a hand for freebies.

[Joe Wooten]

OK, the latest on the CirclebarW bankruptcy.

http://www.powermag.com/toshiba-agrees-to-3-68-billion-deal-to-aid-vogtle-nuclear-construction/?mkt_tok=eyJpIjoiTmpSaU56ZzBNMlZrT0RZNCIsInQiOiJrQ1wvVTE2aEJBbm5RVTZ6YmJoTVFLUkdQcFJQanZWa1MyajdpUHRld3VCcUw0SDhJamx3a0N1M1FBRVd5ajkxZHErUGZiWnRwSlRUTjRUXC9lVXpxVWhQbmZoT1lXNVNIY2lpWFh4T09rTXRnZ3Jkc1ZFUG1oQU81OGs2R1wvUkxZUiJ9

Looks like the Vogtle project will continue construction. If Southern Nuclear gets the right project management, it can be finished for this amount.

[thackney]

OK, the latest on the CirclebarW bankruptcy.

http://www.powermag.com/toshiba-agrees-to-3-68-billion-deal-to-aid-vogtle-nuclear-construction/?mkt_tok=eyJpIjoiTmpSaU56ZzBNMlZrT0RZNCIsInQiOiJrQ1wvVTE2aEJBbm5RVTZ6YmJoTVFLUkdQcFJQanZWa1MyajdpUHRld3VCcUw0SDhJamx3a0N1M1FBRVd5ajkxZHErUGZiWnRwSlRUTjRUXC9lVXpxVWhQbmZoT1lXNVNIY2lpWFh4T09rTXRnZ3Jkc1ZFUG1oQU81OGs2R1wvUkxZUiJ9

Looks like the Vogtle project will continue construction. If Southern Nuclear gets the right project management, it can be finished for this amount.

Thanks for the update

[Sanguine]

You chose to use the word.  You don't have any idea what you meant?

I really do know.  I have looked it up.  That is why the claim doesn't make any sense.

In over 3 decades, the world produced greater that 6 GWH of energy growth from coal while producing less than 2 GWH of energy growth from nuclear.  We didn't choose far greater amounts of coal power because nuclear was far cheaper.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/apps/g/page/world/as-appetite-for-electricity-soars-the-world-keeps-turning-to-coal/1842/

How much of the cost of nuclear is regulatory?

[thackney]

How much of the cost of nuclear is regulatory?

In the US, the frequently changing regulations are quite expensive.  But I don't see that being a major obstruction over the past few decades in countries like China and India.  They built more coal over nuclear for real economic reasons.

[Joe Wooten]

The biggest reason for the cost overruns at Vogtle/Summer is an inexperienced construction workforce, especially management. Costs for the last round of nuke construction were high because we tried to build way too many at the same time, diluting the workforce. Then after an almost 30 year layoff, we tried again, but this time almost all the experienced nuclear construction folks had retired or died with no replacements. Watts Bar 2 ran over because of stupid management decision at the re-start of the construction, and then the same happened for Vogtle and Summer.

I am among the youngest of the engineers who built and started up the last batch of plants, and I am 61. The guys who were our managers back then, especially the good ones, were at least 10 years older, most were 20 years older. I hope we can keep an small cadre of experienced nuclear construction managers/engineers/craft active when Vogtle and Summer go online. Maybe, if all goes well, someone will order another one.