Author Topic: Radiocarbon Dating Can't Prove an Old Earth  (Read 13651 times)

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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Radiocarbon Dating Can't Prove an Old Earth
« Reply #100 on: April 29, 2017, 03:37:28 am »
God created Earth and the Universe.

They are millions of years old and the species that populate the Earth have (during those millions of years) appeared, evolved and dissappeared for various reasons and at random intervals.

Why is all that so difficult to accept?
I have little trouble accepting that God created the Earth and all on it. How long it took could be a simple matter of relativity, where time passes far slower in one frame than it does in another. If God is moving FTL, which he must, if He is everywhere, then time on the Earth passed far more quickly relative to 'God time' and his six days could have been millions of years here.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Radiocarbon Dating Can't Prove an Old Earth
« Reply #101 on: April 29, 2017, 04:14:56 am »
It goes flatly against what God has said. It breaks critical structures in the Bible. And it goes against the prophets and the Messiah.

Thanks for that response. It leads me to my next point, one that I make with both atheists and creationists.

My neighbor enjoys watching SpongeBob Squarepants cartoons. It's a children's show but he truly loves the show.

Whenever I pop in on him and he's watching the show he explains the episode in great detail, laughing his ass off and commenting on it.

I think that the whole thing is silly, but it doesn't bother me in any way because I know that SpongeBob is not real. 

So then, why do atheists and creationists both get offended by the knowledge that others believe in something that they claim does not exist or isn't true?
« Last Edit: April 29, 2017, 04:15:18 am by Luis Gonzalez »
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Re: Radiocarbon Dating Can't Prove an Old Earth
« Reply #102 on: April 29, 2017, 04:42:42 am »

So then, why do atheists and creationists both get offended by the knowledge that others believe in something that they claim does not exist or isn't true?

I can't speak for others, and certainly not atheists.
And my testimony - why I KNOW there is a living and active God - I doubt you want to hear it.

It's the Book. Not what it says (though that is the important part), but it's construction. How the text is designed, it's continuity across authors and millennia... the encryption, as I mentioned before... the complex referential system... The distributed nature of the message within it... the brilliant intertwining of the word and the prophecy... All of these textual constructs assembled into what is often beautiful prose. No force in this world wrote that tome.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2017, 04:45:03 am by roamer_1 »

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Radiocarbon Dating Can't Prove an Old Earth
« Reply #103 on: April 29, 2017, 03:33:03 pm »
I can't speak for others, and certainly not atheists.
And my testimony - why I KNOW there is a living and active God - I doubt you want to hear it.

It's the Book. Not what it says (though that is the important part), but it's construction. How the text is designed, it's continuity across authors and millennia... the encryption, as I mentioned before... the complex referential system... The distributed nature of the message within it... the brilliant intertwining of the word and the prophecy... All of these textual constructs assembled into what is often beautiful prose. No force in this world wrote that tome.

God created Earth and the Universe.

What part of that (in my original statement) fails to get the point across that I believe in Creation?
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Oceander

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Re: Radiocarbon Dating Can't Prove an Old Earth
« Reply #104 on: April 29, 2017, 03:37:49 pm »
Thanks for that response. It leads me to my next point, one that I make with both atheists and creationists.

My neighbor enjoys watching SpongeBob Squarepants cartoons. It's a children's show but he truly loves the show.

Whenever I pop in on him and he's watching the show he explains the episode in great detail, laughing his ass off and commenting on it.

I think that the whole thing is silly, but it doesn't bother me in any way because I know that SpongeBob is not real. 

So then, why do atheists and creationists both get offended by the knowledge that others believe in something that they claim does not exist or isn't true?

And if your neighbor and all else who believed Spongebob to be true started agitating for laws and rules based on what Spongebob said, you would be just as sanguine?

Offline Suppressed

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Re: Radiocarbon Dating Can't Prove an Old Earth
« Reply #105 on: April 29, 2017, 04:19:42 pm »
Is it your supposition that snow flakes today are more complicated than in the past?

Yes, considering they start out as chaotic water vapor and droplets.
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Re: Radiocarbon Dating Can't Prove an Old Earth
« Reply #106 on: April 29, 2017, 04:20:48 pm »
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“In the outside world, I'm a simple geologist. But in here .... I am Falcor, Defender of the Alliance” --Randy Marsh

“The most effectual means of being secure against pain is to retire within ourselves, and to suffice for our own happiness.” -- Thomas Jefferson

“He's so dumb he thinks a Mexican border pays rent.” --Foghorn Leghorn

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Re: Radiocarbon Dating Can't Prove an Old Earth
« Reply #108 on: April 29, 2017, 04:55:41 pm »
And if your neighbor and all else who believed Spongebob to be true started agitating for laws and rules based on what Spongebob said, you would be just as sanguine?

I would add to that, "teaching in the schools that SpongeBob is real".
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“The most effectual means of being secure against pain is to retire within ourselves, and to suffice for our own happiness.” -- Thomas Jefferson

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Online roamer_1

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Re: Radiocarbon Dating Can't Prove an Old Earth
« Reply #109 on: April 29, 2017, 06:26:02 pm »
God created Earth and the Universe.

What part of that (in my original statement) fails to get the point across that I believe in Creation?

LOL! At one point, my reply was considerably more wordy than it turned out, and in my editing, I cut out the paragraph that contained my actual answer to you. Sorry about that. Howabout this:

I don't mind that folks see things differently, with the exception of general order and adherence to the Judeo-Christian Ethic - To be a nation, a people, we must reasonably agree upon what is right and wrong. In the US, and I would argue, largely the West, that sense is (or was) defined upon that ethic.

If someone rises to speak against that general ethical norm, I am bound to rise in opposition, not so much in the value of preaching for my God, but more in defense of that common sense of law. And I will be zealous.

As to whether folks believe differently wrt the topic at hand, namely old earth/young earth, evolution, and especially Christians supporting a long view of Creation, I must rise to defend the Bible directly, for the aforementioned reasons regarding the great damage such theories do to the message and particularly to the proof contained within the Scriptures.

Whether done in malice, ignorance, or appeasement, the raw fact is that these positions are diametrically opposed to the Word of God, do great damage to his message, and I must rise in objection. It isn't a matter of interpretation. It says what it says. It MUST say what it says.

Is that better?

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Re: Radiocarbon Dating Can't Prove an Old Earth
« Reply #110 on: April 29, 2017, 07:06:39 pm »
LOL! At one point, my reply was considerably more wordy than it turned out, and in my editing, I cut out the paragraph that contained my actual answer to you. Sorry about that. Howabout this:

I don't mind that folks see things differently, with the exception of general order and adherence to the Judeo-Christian Ethic - To be a nation, a people, we must reasonably agree upon what is right and wrong. In the US, and I would argue, largely the West, that sense is (or was) defined upon that ethic.

If someone rises to speak against that general ethical norm, I am bound to rise in opposition, not so much in the value of preaching for my God, but more in defense of that common sense of law. And I will be zealous.

As to whether folks believe differently wrt the topic at hand, namely old earth/young earth, evolution, and especially Christians supporting a long view of Creation, I must rise to defend the Bible directly, for the aforementioned reasons regarding the great damage such theories do to the message and particularly to the proof contained within the Scriptures.

Whether done in malice, ignorance, or appeasement, the raw fact is that these positions are diametrically opposed to the Word of God, do great damage to his message, and I must rise in objection. It isn't a matter of interpretation. It says what it says. It MUST say what it says.

Is that better?

If the text in the Bible can only be read to support a young Earth hypothesis, then the Bible is in error to that extent.  The Bible was writ by human hands, based on human understanding of what the authors perceived to be the Word of God.  The Universe IS the Word of God, writ directly and without mediation by His hand.  If the two conflict then the former must fail.  The Word of God, in the form of the laws of thermodynamics, says the Earth cannot be "young" (I.e., less than at least 20 million years, as such are measured now).  Therefore, if the Bible only supports the hypothesis that the Earth is less than 20 million years old, then there is necessarily a flaw in what human hands originally wrote, and to that extent the Bible is false.  It cannot be otherwise: The act of human transcription cannot change the meaning of the Word of God so transcribed. 

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Re: Radiocarbon Dating Can't Prove an Old Earth
« Reply #111 on: April 29, 2017, 07:33:09 pm »
If the text in the Bible can only be read to support a young Earth hypothesis, then the Bible is in error to that extent.

No, it is not.

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The Bible was writ by human hands, based on human understanding of what the authors perceived to be the Word of God. 

An incorrect assumption. Perhaps your science was written by human hands, based upon human understanding.

Quote
The Universe IS the Word of God, writ directly and without mediation by His hand.  If the two conflict then the former must fail. 

Impossible.

Quote
The Word of God, in the form of the laws of thermodynamics, says the Earth cannot be "young" (I.e., less than at least 20 million years, as such are measured now). 

The law of thermodynamics was written by men, not by God.

Quote
Therefore, if the Bible only supports the hypothesis that the Earth is less than 20 million years old, then there is necessarily a flaw in what human hands originally wrote, and to that extent the Bible is false.  It cannot be otherwise:

My bets are upon the Word of God being true, and the science of men being in error... As God has predicted will be the case. It is written. The prophets predict your position.

It is man whose views are flawed, whose understanding is incomplete.

The Word of YHWH will stand. Study his proofs and you will see. Why do you suppose no less than Isaac Newton would devote most of his lifetime to that study? Because he saw the math. Look into what he has to say... Which he said in fear of his life, and entrusted to no man complete until he had passed.

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The act of human transcription cannot change the meaning of the Word of God so transcribed.

There is no error in transcription, transmission, or interpretation.
the text we have is true. Especially so wrt Torah (Pentateuch, first five books).
the proofs are impeccable. The math extraordinary.

Offline Suppressed

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Re: Radiocarbon Dating Can't Prove an Old Earth
« Reply #112 on: April 30, 2017, 04:13:16 am »
@the_doc
But give them a couple years and they'll come up with some incredibly complex reason what flesh can survive such a very long entombment.

@the_doc @roamer_1

Actually, we already have the answers, and they're quite simple.  Here you go: https://letterstocreationists.wordpress.com/dinosaur-soft-tissue/
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Re: Radiocarbon Dating Can't Prove an Old Earth
« Reply #113 on: April 30, 2017, 08:52:15 pm »
Actually, we already have the answers [...]

ROTFLMAO!!! Of course you do/

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@the_doc

Offline Sanguine

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Re: Radiocarbon Dating Can't Prove an Old Earth
« Reply #114 on: April 30, 2017, 08:58:26 pm »
ROTFLMAO!!! Of course you do/

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@the_doc

It really is interesting science. 

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Re: Radiocarbon Dating Can't Prove an Old Earth
« Reply #115 on: April 30, 2017, 10:13:37 pm »
@the_doc @roamer_1

Actually, we already have the answers, and they're quite simple.  Here you go: https://letterstocreationists.wordpress.com/dinosaur-soft-tissue/
Wow! wordpress.  :whistle:
Couldn't even get Wikipedia for help?
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Re: Radiocarbon Dating Can't Prove an Old Earth
« Reply #116 on: April 30, 2017, 10:24:28 pm »
Wow! wordpress.  :whistle:
Couldn't even get Wikipedia for help?

Ad hominem is all you have? No rebuttal on content?

Typical.
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“He's so dumb he thinks a Mexican border pays rent.” --Foghorn Leghorn

Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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Re: Radiocarbon Dating Can't Prove an Old Earth
« Reply #117 on: April 30, 2017, 10:31:51 pm »
Ad hominem is all you have? No rebuttal on content?

Typical.
Wait what?
I didn't attack you. Sheesh. *****rollingeyes*****
Let's just say I'm wondering if there are more scholarly sources on the matter. Some guy in the check out line at Walmart once told me it was Aliens so it must be true.
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Re: Radiocarbon Dating Can't Prove an Old Earth
« Reply #118 on: April 30, 2017, 11:52:07 pm »
It really is interesting science.

I suppose, if one starts from the premise that something, anything, can survive for MILLIONS of years. I think the reason people get sucked into this crap is because 'millions of years' is so beyond any real grasp, that it is immediately taken for granted - as it is beyond any real calculation.

'If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullsh*t'... and I smell bullshit.

My favorite part was the whole idea that the carcass laid out and was mummified before being subjected to silting in by highly mineralized water. That made me laugh, right out loud. Folks are so very divorced from their environment that they can't even see how very hilarious that is.

@Sanguine
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« Last Edit: April 30, 2017, 11:52:53 pm by roamer_1 »

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Re: Radiocarbon Dating Can't Prove an Old Earth
« Reply #119 on: May 01, 2017, 12:11:03 am »
Wait what?
I didn't attack you. Sheesh. *****rollingeyes*****

Huh?  Point out where I said you did!

Quote
Let's just say I'm wondering if there are more scholarly sources on the matter. Some guy in the check out line at Walmart once told me it was Aliens so it must be true.

The piece was loaded with scholarly citations.  Your ad hominem attack against the source is ridiculous, especially since you obviously haven't read it or the references it cites.
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Re: Radiocarbon Dating Can't Prove an Old Earth
« Reply #120 on: May 01, 2017, 12:21:22 am »
I suppose, if one starts from the premise that something, anything, can survive for MILLIONS of years. I think the reason people get sucked into this crap is because 'millions of years' is so beyond any real grasp, that it is immediately taken for granted - as it is beyond any real calculation.

It's more believable than the idea of a "good" god who plays head games with his creation, giving heaping amounts of evidence for old age  while it's all a fake.

Quote
'If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullsh*t'... and I smell bullshit.
 

Take a shower and stop rolling around with ICR, perhaps.  ^-^

Quote
My favorite part was the whole idea that the carcass laid out and was mummified before being subjected to silting in by highly mineralized water. That made me laugh, right out loud. Folks are so very divorced from their environment that they can't even see how very hilarious that is.

I've spent enough time in the outdoors to know that's feasible.  I've seen many desiccated carcasses in areas that receive sediment loads at other times.

What I find ridiculous, not hilarious, is the idea that a "good" god would plant evidence like this, obviously to fool us. 

@roamer_1  @Sanguine
« Last Edit: May 01, 2017, 12:21:49 am by Suppressed »
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Re: Radiocarbon Dating Can't Prove an Old Earth
« Reply #121 on: May 01, 2017, 12:28:40 am »
It's more believable than the idea of a "good" god who plays head games with his creation, giving heaping amounts of evidence for old age  while it's all a fake.
 
I don't suggest your evidence is fake, I suggest it is utterly misinterpreted.
And no, it isn't easier to believe. Far, far harder, imho.

**EDIT: That isn't to say that evidence hasn't been faked repeatedly, which it most certainly has.

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I've spent enough time in the outdoors to know that's feasible.  I've seen many desiccated carcasses in areas that receive sediment loads at other times.

In a desert, sure. not in taiga forest, which the t-rex supposedly inhabited. Nothing is left. The nature of the landscape dictates it.

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What I find ridiculous, not hilarious, is the idea that a "good" god would plant evidence like this, obviously to fool us. 

Not my position.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2017, 12:31:39 am by roamer_1 »

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Re: Radiocarbon Dating Can't Prove an Old Earth
« Reply #122 on: May 01, 2017, 12:39:43 am »
Not my position.

What is your position? 

Since there's overwhelming evidence for an old earth, why do we see that if the earth isn't old?
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Re: Radiocarbon Dating Can't Prove an Old Earth
« Reply #123 on: May 01, 2017, 12:42:49 am »
What is your position? 

Like I said. your data is misinterpreted, relying on extrapolations that literally cannot be proven.

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Since there's overwhelming evidence for an old earth, why do we see that if the earth isn't old?

Because you want to. FAITH.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Radiocarbon Dating Can't Prove an Old Earth
« Reply #124 on: May 01, 2017, 02:20:58 am »
I suppose, if one starts from the premise that something, anything, can survive for MILLIONS of years. I think the reason people get sucked into this crap is because 'millions of years' is so beyond any real grasp, that it is immediately taken for granted - as it is beyond any real calculation.

'If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullsh*t'... and I smell bullshit.

My favorite part was the whole idea that the carcass laid out and was mummified before being subjected to silting in by highly mineralized water. That made me laugh, right out loud. Folks are so very divorced from their environment that they can't even see how very hilarious that is.

@Sanguine
@Suppressed
Not to be a pain, folks, but did the first amoeba ever die?

I think we need to stop and recognize that "With God, all things are possible. " (MATT 19:26)

Science is our attempt to explain what is.

Often that attempt is inadequate due to perception, measurement, missing data, or plain lack of understanding. We do not understand some of the fundamental forces in nature, much less the details of creation.
 
A year of paleontology did convince me of a couple of things: there are a lot of hypothetical ancestral forms which allegedly predate fully developed and significantly different organisms ("missing links"), and when rocks are dated by their preserved fauna, there is an element of circular reasoning which can creep in.

Not only are faunal assemblages found in specific and different depositional environments which are possibly contemporaneous (as are the rocks they are preserved in), but apparent successions can result, when in fact, those are just different critters living in different niches at the same time and changing climate moves the areal boundaries of those niches (and those faunal assemblages) around. Thus in one spot, we can find apparent faunal successions in different rock layers and correlate those with the same rock type and fauna elsewhere, and have identified not necessarily an age as is so often accepted, but the preserved remains of critters which lived in a specific environment.

While stratigraphy is a good working framework for finding oil, coal, and other resources, and even establishing relative ages (and depositional/living environments), it may fall well short in telling all of the tale. 

As a scientist, I know our interpretations are necessarily flawed. Our data has its peculiar problems, and our interpretation is open to being incorrect. That doesn't stop trying to sort it all out from being fun, and even useful, but as the great and golden truth, it falls short.

I will stick with the revealed Truth in Scripture.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis