Author Topic: Radiocarbon Dating Can't Prove an Old Earth  (Read 13648 times)

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Offline truth_seeker

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Re: Radiocarbon Dating Can't Prove an Old Earth
« Reply #75 on: April 28, 2017, 09:47:03 pm »

I believe "science" has only been investigating "evolution" for a short time--maybe 200 years or less.

Given a few more hundreds of years, and "science" will have a much fuller understanding and explanation. 

None of the "scientific" investigation is intended in my view, to diminish the role of or existence of a "God."

Science and religion are not mutually exclusive. God is simply so big, to have had us mystified for a long, long time. Hence many explanations have emerged from the minds of men.
"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

Online roamer_1

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Re: Radiocarbon Dating Can't Prove an Old Earth
« Reply #76 on: April 28, 2017, 10:02:49 pm »
They also cannot explain soft tissues, including intact DNA, found over and over in dinosaur fossils.  (These things were originally found by accident a few years ago, because no one had ever bothered to look for things that they KNEW could not survive for more than a few thousand years at most--certainly not for 65 millions years.  Now when they go back to the museums to re-check the fossil bones, they invariably find soft tissues that they say should not be there.)

@the_doc

That really ought to be the end of it. The only reason for an old earth is to allow for evolution.
But give them a couple years and they'll come up with some incredibly complex reason what flesh can survive such a very long entombment.

And they'll cling to it with faith, despite back-bending complexity, because anything but God. Anything but the Flood.
Watch and see.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2017, 10:03:33 pm by roamer_1 »

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: Radiocarbon Dating Can't Prove an Old Earth
« Reply #77 on: April 28, 2017, 10:18:01 pm »
Oh, I'm not judging God.
Really?  better go back and read what you posted.  For your ease, here it is in its entirety
Quote
Nope.  That God exists outside of time does not absolve Him of falsifying the existence of things that exist only within time.  If God intentionally made something so that it necessarily appeared to be older than it in fact is, then He intentionally created a falsehood, which is what liars do. 

There are no two ways around the question, and no amount of hairsplitting will finesse it.


You are determining on your own that God needs some type of absolution, and that he created a falsehood.

Your scientific background, or at least what I presume is your scientific background, is clouding your senses.

There are indeed some absolute truths about God, including He does not make mistakes, even in creating a being that makes mistakes like you.
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline Suppressed

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Re: Radiocarbon Dating Can't Prove an Old Earth
« Reply #78 on: April 28, 2017, 10:25:44 pm »
And evolution defies the laws of entropy.

Uh, no it doesn't.

Does God hand-craft every snowflake against the laws of nature? Or is it possible, within the laws of nature, to create complexity out of disorder?

(A: The latter. Creation "scientists" are lying charlatans if they claim the laws of entropy/thermodynamics prevent evolution.)
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Offline Suppressed

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Re: Radiocarbon Dating Can't Prove an Old Earth
« Reply #79 on: April 28, 2017, 10:31:39 pm »
That, or else you have to believe that God made a false world and intentionally made it seem like what it is not. 

Your pick.  You can have a young Earth, or a God who is righteous and truthful; you cannot have both.

This is why I can't have those beliefs -- I refuse to worship Loki.
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Online roamer_1

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Re: Radiocarbon Dating Can't Prove an Old Earth
« Reply #80 on: April 28, 2017, 10:45:16 pm »
Uh, no it doesn't.

Does God hand-craft every snowflake against the laws of nature? Or is it possible, within the laws of nature, to create complexity out of disorder?

(A: The latter. Creation "scientists" are lying charlatans if they claim the laws of entropy/thermodynamics prevent evolution.)

Is it your supposition that snow flakes today are more complicated than in the past?

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Re: Radiocarbon Dating Can't Prove an Old Earth
« Reply #81 on: April 28, 2017, 11:01:55 pm »
Really?  better go back and read what you posted.  For your ease, here it is in its entiretyYou are determining on your own that God needs some type of absolution, and that he created a falsehood.

Your scientific background, or at least what I presume is your scientific background, is clouding your senses.

There are indeed some absolute truths about God, including He does not make mistakes, even in creating a being that makes mistakes like you.

No, I didn't.  I judged those who make the claim that God created a young Earth and found their position wanting because accepting it necessarily entails the conclusion that God is a liar if the young Earth hypothesis is correct. 

Since God cannot - by definition if you will - be a liar, then it necessarily follows that the young Earth hypothesis is false. 

QED

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Re: Radiocarbon Dating Can't Prove an Old Earth
« Reply #82 on: April 28, 2017, 11:04:51 pm »
Is it your supposition that snow flakes today are more complicated than in the past?

It doesn't have to be.  Is it your supposition that not a single snowflake today can possess as much order as did any snowflake ever in the past?

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Re: Radiocarbon Dating Can't Prove an Old Earth
« Reply #83 on: April 28, 2017, 11:14:28 pm »
This is why I can't have those beliefs -- I refuse to worship Loki.

What beliefs are those?

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Radiocarbon Dating Can't Prove an Old Earth
« Reply #84 on: April 29, 2017, 12:00:49 am »
No, the blasphemy is in speaking contrary to the Word of God. Accepting your premise does terrible damage to the Bible, and tries to diminish it's reliability. It destroys prophecy contained within the Jubillee cycles. It denies the flood.

You forgot one choice... The one that is faultlessly true, because It IS Written:
He will cause your learned men to be fools... laughingstocks.

The third choice, that your science is wrong.
Believe YHWH's evidence, or believe yours... The choice in that is easy.
I put science in its proper perspective (I think).

Science is our attempt to understand the wonders Our Creator has made. Now we do indeed see through a glass darkly, and are limited by our own cognitive abilities to comprehend the changes on a planet assumed to be ever moving at its present speed, with the assumption that the rules have not changed. An Almighty God who can stop the sun in the heavens can certainly override all of our observed beliefs about how things work, and there is no guarantee those constants we have observed in the past few thousand years (in some cases, a few tens of years) are indeed ever constant. Only one thing is constant, that being the Dominion over all of creation YHWH has.

I understand the flaws in our perception, and that at best it provides a working model we can play with to put events in sequence and perspective, and enough room on the chart to squeeze in some details, but I do not see it as an absolute. It never will be, because at absolute best, our knowledge is limited.

I am a scientist, a geologist, and that gives me a depth of appreciation those who are not so conversant in the convulsions and events that have occurred on Earth may lack,  but all the philosophies of men are nothing in the Light of the Almighty, who knows all because He made it.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Radiocarbon Dating Can't Prove an Old Earth
« Reply #85 on: April 29, 2017, 12:01:59 am »
Radiocarbondating.com where really senior people meet.
Yeah, but they have that 'glow' about them....
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Radiocarbon Dating Can't Prove an Old Earth
« Reply #86 on: April 29, 2017, 12:07:44 am »
Nope.  That God exists outside of time does not absolve Him of falsifying the existence of things that exist only within time.  If God intentionally made something so that it necessarily appeared to be older than it in fact is, then He intentionally created a falsehood, which is what liars do. 

There are no two ways around the question, and no amount of hairsplitting will finesse it.
Now we get into relativity.
For The Almighty, moving at the speed of light (or faster, because light hadn't been made yet) six days pass...on the waters, on Earth, trundling through the cosmos, and for the cosmos itself, it moves more slowly. He can indeed create that in six days which seems so much longer in our time reference.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Radiocarbon Dating Can't Prove an Old Earth
« Reply #87 on: April 29, 2017, 12:23:37 am »
Nope.  That God exists outside of time does not absolve Him of falsifying the existence of things that exist only within time.  If God intentionally made something so that it necessarily appeared to be older than it in fact is, then He intentionally created a falsehood, which is what liars do. 

There are no two ways around the question, and no amount of hairsplitting will finesse it.
You say He falsified something. I would say our perceptions may be in error first. I dealt with the relativity question above. His six days might seem different here. It is a human assumption, in fact a fundamental axiom that all the processes we currently have observed have been and always will be constrained by the apparent constraints of time and other interactions that we observe and have observed in a very short time span.
We are limited in our perception.

The two different balls of different mass may have hit the ground at the same time on Earth, dropped from a tower in Pisa, but if you released them at the same time in space, the big one would get there first.
Why? Because it's slightly greater mass would cause a slightly greater gravitational attraction, which would cause a slightly greater acceleration, which would decrease its transit time relative to the smaller mass.
Even our axioms fail outside the realm of our limited perceptions, and we don't even know how to measure all the fundamental forces we perceive yet, or we'd have a far better understanding of time and gravity.

In short, our best understanding of our surroundings is still not good enough.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Polly Ticks

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Re: Radiocarbon Dating Can't Prove an Old Earth
« Reply #88 on: April 29, 2017, 12:43:25 am »
You say He falsified something. I would say our perceptions may be in error first. I dealt with the relativity question above. His six days might seem different here. It is a human assumption, in fact a fundamental axiom that all the processes we currently have observed have been and always will be constrained by the apparent constraints of time and other interactions that we observe and have observed in a very short time span.
We are limited in our perception.

Perfect!  That is exactly what I was trying to say, but you are so much more eloquent. 
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Online roamer_1

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Re: Radiocarbon Dating Can't Prove an Old Earth
« Reply #89 on: April 29, 2017, 01:23:44 am »
It doesn't have to be.  Is it your supposition that not a single snowflake today can possess as much order as did any snowflake ever in the past?

Doesn't matter. I don't suppose crystalline structures to be ordered.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2017, 01:24:16 am by roamer_1 »

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Re: Radiocarbon Dating Can't Prove an Old Earth
« Reply #90 on: April 29, 2017, 01:35:28 am »

I am a scientist, a geologist, and that gives me a depth of appreciation those who are not so conversant in the convulsions and events that have occurred on Earth may lack,  but all the philosophies of men are nothing in the Light of the Almighty, who knows all because He made it.

I can heartily agree with all that.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Radiocarbon Dating Can't Prove an Old Earth
« Reply #91 on: April 29, 2017, 01:36:39 am »
Doesn't matter. I don't suppose crystalline structures to be ordered.
Actually, although they seem to expand like fractals, the lattice structure is ordered.

In general, it is determined by the atoms/molecules involved, the size of the ions and relative charges. So it is with all crystals, especially minerals. That's why the angles between the corresponding faces on any two crystals of the same substance are the same, and those angle measurements were the beginnings of mineralogy. The structure of the earth is ordered, rather precisely, on a molecular level. Water is crystalline when frozen, and though the patterns of snowflakes are different because of their growth the lattice (the framework they can be aligned to) is the same.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Weird Tolkienish Figure

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Re: Radiocarbon Dating Can't Prove an Old Earth
« Reply #92 on: April 29, 2017, 01:42:16 am »
Mortal men, inspired by the Spirit of the living God. Moses took dictation.

Lots of men claim to see/meet God. Cue Neitzsche's quote about a stroll through a lunatic asylum.

Bible is IMO a mixture of truth/fiction, tall tales, and folk legends. Even Jefferson thought the Bible was silly (which is why he tried to rewrite it).

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Re: Radiocarbon Dating Can't Prove an Old Earth
« Reply #93 on: April 29, 2017, 02:14:03 am »
Actually, although they seem to expand like fractals, the lattice structure is ordered.

In general, it is determined by the atoms/molecules involved, the size of the ions and relative charges. So it is with all crystals, especially minerals. That's why the angles between the corresponding faces on any two crystals of the same substance are the same, and those angle measurements were the beginnings of mineralogy. The structure of the earth is ordered, rather precisely, on a molecular level. Water is crystalline when frozen, and though the patterns of snowflakes are different because of their growth the lattice (the framework they can be aligned to) is the same.

I don't understand it with that depth, but looking at frost grow on the window, the process struck me as chaotic within the limits of it's mechanical means. It never painted the window the same way twice (design), nor did it seem to care how it started or where it went upon the glass, with the exception that it tended to start on the colder edge, and wind up covering the same relative space.

Frost is some cool stuff.

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Re: Radiocarbon Dating Can't Prove an Old Earth
« Reply #94 on: April 29, 2017, 02:20:52 am »
Lots of men claim to see/meet God. Cue Neitzsche's quote about a stroll through a lunatic asylum.

Bible is IMO a mixture of truth/fiction, tall tales, and folk legends. Even Jefferson thought the Bible was silly (which is why he tried to rewrite it).

Well thanks for your opinion, but as I said on another thread, you're going to have a hard time explaining the types of encryption contained within the text... both within it and subliminally. Those types of encryption are deliberate, precise, and well beyond the ability of man to construct. That Book is the most amazing construction I have ever seen.

And as a student of the prophecy... You'd better hold on to your hat.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Radiocarbon Dating Can't Prove an Old Earth
« Reply #95 on: April 29, 2017, 02:33:48 am »
I don't understand it with that depth, but looking at frost grow on the window, the process struck me as chaotic within the limits of it's mechanical means. It never painted the window the same way twice (design), nor did it seem to care how it started or where it went upon the glass, with the exception that it tended to start on the colder edge, and wind up covering the same relative space.

Frost is some cool stuff.
Yes, it is. The growth of the frost is what follows fractals. The actual crustal lattice is different, No matter what form grows, the molecular structure, the spacing between the atoms and molecules remains the same in the lattice, whether or not all of that framework gets filled in. Think of it like legos. You can make any number of things, but the blocks still hook up the same way. More of His genius, imho.

Fractals: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractal
« Last Edit: April 29, 2017, 02:36:57 am by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Radiocarbon Dating Can't Prove an Old Earth
« Reply #96 on: April 29, 2017, 03:18:50 am »
See? Go back to my original post. Young earth creationists are only interested in reaffirming what they think is true despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

Bolobaby, out.
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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Radiocarbon Dating Can't Prove an Old Earth
« Reply #97 on: April 29, 2017, 03:27:29 am »
Quote
"The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function." - F. Scott Fitzgerald

God created Earth and the Universe.

They are millions of years old and the species that populate the Earth have (during those millions of years) appeared, evolved and dissappeared for various reasons and at random intervals.

Why is all that so difficult to accept? 
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Radiocarbon Dating Can't Prove an Old Earth
« Reply #98 on: April 29, 2017, 03:32:18 am »
Unfortunately, what passes for science nowadays starts with fundamental assumptions that may not be true, and all too often include the conclusions.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

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Re: Radiocarbon Dating Can't Prove an Old Earth
« Reply #99 on: April 29, 2017, 03:33:47 am »
God created Earth and the Universe.

They are millions of years old and the species that populate the Earth have (during those millions of years) appeared, evolved and dissappeared for various reasons and at random intervals.

Why is all that so difficult to accept?

It goes flatly against what God has said. It breaks critical structures in the Bible. And it goes against the prophets and the Messiah.