Author Topic: Engineer fined $500 for calling himself 'engineer'  (Read 3825 times)

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rangerrebew

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Engineer fined $500 for calling himself 'engineer'
« on: April 27, 2017, 03:08:32 pm »
Engineer fined $500 for calling himself 'engineer'
State penalizes man who found problem with red-light cameras
Published: 15 hours ago
 

Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2017/04/engineer-fined-500-for-calling-himself-engineer/#uklz7bosE1fXHD2Q.99

Offline thackney

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Re: Engineer fined $500 for calling himself 'engineer'
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2017, 03:21:13 pm »
Quote
“ORS 672.020(1) prohibits the practice of engineering in Oregon without registration … at a minimum, your use of the title ‘electronics engineer’ and the statement ‘I’m an engineer’ … create violations,” read the Oregon State Board of Examiners for Engineering and Land Surveying response.

In the two years that followed, Järlström – who is not licensed as an engineer in Oregon – was accused of misrepresenting himself, and his year of collecting data – on his own time, free of charge – characterized as possibly having “engaged in unlicensed engineering work in Oregon.”

Basically all states have this type of law on their books.  Enforcement varies.

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Offline Joe Wooten

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Re: Engineer fined $500 for calling himself 'engineer'
« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2017, 03:26:43 pm »
Engineer fined $500 for calling himself 'engineer'
State penalizes man who found problem with red-light cameras
Published: 15 hours ago
 

Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2017/04/engineer-fined-500-for-calling-himself-engineer/#uklz7bosE1fXHD2Q.99

If Oregon's Professional Engineer statutes are similar to Texas, Illinois, and other states I'm familiar with, as long as he is not hanging out a shingle advertising himself as a provider of Engineering Services, he can state he is an engineer in communications like this one where he is not getting paid for the analysis he did. This is misuse of the law by overzealous bureaucrats both at the state PE bureau and the local city where he analyzed the traffic light. The city is getting back at him for embarrassing them. I hope every 'crat involved is fired, but I won't hold my breath.

Offline Cripplecreek

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Re: Engineer fined $500 for calling himself 'engineer'
« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2017, 03:31:58 pm »
Basically all states have this type of law on their books.  Enforcement varies.

In the case of an engineer its probably a good thing to have a law assuring that we get an engineer. A manicurist or a house painter not so much.

Offline driftdiver

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Re: Engineer fined $500 for calling himself 'engineer'
« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2017, 03:39:47 pm »
His crime was questioning the revenue creating systems known as red light cameras.
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Offline ABX

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Re: Engineer fined $500 for calling himself 'engineer'
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2017, 03:43:56 pm »
If it pleases the crown, may a gentleman engage in the career he is trained for without paying tribute to the king?

Offline thackney

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Re: Engineer fined $500 for calling himself 'engineer'
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2017, 04:01:09 pm »
If Oregon's Professional Engineer statutes are similar to Texas, Illinois, and other states I'm familiar with, as long as he is not hanging out a shingle advertising himself as a provider of Engineering Services, he can state he is an engineer in communications like this one where he is not getting paid for the analysis he did. This is misuse of the law by overzealous bureaucrats both at the state PE bureau and the local city where he analyzed the traffic light. The city is getting back at him for embarrassing them. I hope every 'crat involved is fired, but I won't hold my breath.

It is a stretch, but not much of a stretch the way their law is written.

https://www.oregonlegislature.gov/bills_laws/ors/ors672.html

   672.007 Acts constituting practice of engineering, land surveying or photogrammetric mapping. For purposes of ORS 672.002 to 672.325:
      (1) A person is practicing or offering to practice engineering if the person:
      (a) By verbal claim, sign, advertisement, letterhead, card or in any other way implies that the person is or purports to be a registered professional engineer;
      (b) Through the use of some other title implies that the person is an engineer or a registered professional engineer; or
      (c) Purports to be able to perform, or who does perform, any service or work that is defined by ORS 672.005 as the practice of engineering.....

  672.020 Practice of engineering without registration prohibited; seal required. (1) In order to safeguard life, health and property, no person shall practice or offer to practice engineering in this state unless the person is registered and has a valid certificate to practice engineering issued under ORS 672.002 to 672.325.

      (2) Each registered professional engineer shall, upon registration, obtain a seal of the design authorized by the State Board of Examiners for Engineering and Land Surveying. Every final document including drawings, specifications, designs, reports, narratives, maps and plans issued by a registrant shall be stamped with the seal and signed by the registrant. The signature and stamp of a registrant constitute a certification that the document was prepared by the registrant or under the supervision and control of the registrant....

     672.045 Prohibited activities relating to practices of engineering, land surveying or photogrammetric mapping. A person may not:
      (1) Engage in the practice of engineering, land surveying or photogrammetric mapping without having a valid certificate or permit to so practice issued in accordance with ORS 672.002 to 672.325.
      (2) Falsely represent, by any means, that the person is authorized to practice engineering, land surveying or photogrammetric mapping.
      (3) Present or attempt to use the certificate or permit of another or the seal of another.
      (4) Attempt to use an expired or revoked certificate or permit.
      (5) Falsely impersonate any registrant of like or different name.
      (6) Practice engineering, land surveying or photogrammetric mapping when not qualified.
      (7) Buy, sell or fraudulently obtain any certificate or permit required by ORS 672.002 to 672.325.
      (8) Aid or abet the buying, selling or fraudulently obtaining of any certificate or permit required by ORS 672.002 to 672.325.
      (9) Engage in the practice of engineering, land surveying or photogrammetric mapping under cover of a certificate or permit obtained or issued fraudulently or unlawfully or under fraudulent representations or mistake of fact in a material regard.
      (10) Give any false or forged evidence of any kind to the State Board of Examiners for Engineering and Land Surveying or to any member of the board in obtaining or attempting to obtain a certificate or permit required by ORS 672.002 to 672.325.

- - - - - - - - -

In Texas, it is more clear.  You cannot claim to be an engineer without being registered.  You cannot create the impression that you are

§ 1001.301. License Required
(a) A person may not engage in the practice of engineering unless the person holds a license issued under this chapter.
(b) Except as provided by Subsection (f), a person may not, unless the person holds a license issued under this chapter, directly or indirectly
use or cause to be used as a professional, business, or commercial identification, title, name, representation, claim, asset, or means of
advantage or benefit any of, or a variation or abbreviation of, the following terms:
(1) “engineer”;
(2) “professional engineer”;
(3) “licensed engineer”;
(4) “registered engineer”;
(5) “registered professional engineer”;
(6) “licensed professional engineer”; or
(7) “engineered.”
(c) Except as provided by Subsection (f), a person may not directly or indirectly use or cause to be used an abbreviation, word, symbol,
slogan, or sign that tends or is likely to create an impression with the public that the person is qualified or authorized to engage in the
practice of engineering unless the person holds a license and is practicing under this chapter.

- - - - - -

My experience is this is rarely enforced outside of doing actual work.
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Offline thackney

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Re: Engineer fined $500 for calling himself 'engineer'
« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2017, 04:05:26 pm »
If it pleases the crown, may a gentleman engage in the career he is trained for without paying tribute to the king?

Exactly.  And in some states, they create specialized licensing requirements to prevent out-of-state individuals from encroaching on the turf of those who paid their tribute.

Alaska requires a specialized class in Arctic Engineering, regardless of where and what type of engineering you perform.  It used to be the class was only offered at University of Alaska, as a full semester course.  When I took it, you could take it only over two weeks.  As an Electrical Engineer specialized in power systems, I suppose it was important I understand how ice dams forms and break up in rivers, but I'm not sure why.  I also learned 27 types of ice, which I have since forgotten.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2017, 04:05:59 pm by thackney »
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Offline Joe Wooten

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Re: Engineer fined $500 for calling himself 'engineer'
« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2017, 04:20:28 pm »
Exactly.  And in some states, they create specialized licensing requirements to prevent out-of-state individuals from encroaching on the turf of those who paid their tribute.

Alaska requires a specialized class in Arctic Engineering, regardless of where and what type of engineering you perform.  It used to be the class was only offered at University of Alaska, as a full semester course.  When I took it, you could take it only over two weeks.  As an Electrical Engineer specialized in power systems, I suppose it was important I understand how ice dams forms and break up in rivers, but I'm not sure why.  I also learned 27 types of ice, which I have since forgotten.

I'm registered engineer in Texas, and none of the enforcement actions there are of the type this guy got hit with. Every one of them are guys who either falsely stamped work as a Texas PE or advertised Engineering services without being registered.

Offline Joe Wooten

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Re: Engineer fined $500 for calling himself 'engineer'
« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2017, 04:22:48 pm »
Exactly.  And in some states, they create specialized licensing requirements to prevent out-of-state individuals from encroaching on the turf of those who paid their tribute.

Alaska requires a specialized class in Arctic Engineering, regardless of where and what type of engineering you perform.  It used to be the class was only offered at University of Alaska, as a full semester course.  When I took it, you could take it only over two weeks.  As an Electrical Engineer specialized in power systems, I suppose it was important I understand how ice dams forms and break up in rivers, but I'm not sure why.  I also learned 27 types of ice, which I have since forgotten.

New York and California have their own very hard tests. Almost every other state takes the EIT/P&P standard tests, which are no breeze either, or used to not be. It's been over 35 years since I took the P&P and almost 40 since the EIT.

Offline thackney

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Re: Engineer fined $500 for calling himself 'engineer'
« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2017, 04:59:49 pm »
I'm registered engineer in Texas, and none of the enforcement actions there are of the type this guy got hit with. Every one of them are guys who either falsely stamped work as a Texas PE or advertised Engineering services without being registered.

Agreed this is way out of norm.  Just a legalistic reading of the law and not being properly applied.  Which is why I said: 

Quote
My experience is this is rarely enforced outside of doing actual work.
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Offline thackney

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Re: Engineer fined $500 for calling himself 'engineer'
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2017, 05:05:58 pm »
New York and California have their own very hard tests. Almost every other state takes the EIT/P&P standard tests, which are no breeze either, or used to not be. It's been over 35 years since I took the P&P and almost 40 since the EIT.

I had bad advice from another PE when I was young.  He had his stamp stolen and then was later sued by the client of the guy who stole the stamp.  Consequently, I worked for a couple decades without getting my PE.  Then I was offered a Chief Engineer position, requiring my Alaska PE.  I took the FE (EIT) exam about 2 decades after finishing college.  I passed, but it was a miserable experience.  I spent lots of hours relearning subjects I hadn't looked since then.  The PE (P&P) was far easier as I could select the power option and have much more applicable work.
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Offline thackney

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Re: Engineer fined $500 for calling himself 'engineer'
« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2017, 05:17:54 pm »
New York and California have their own very hard tests.

By the way, both New York and California use the NCEES standard tests today.

http://www.op.nysed.gov/prof/pels/pelic.htm

http://www.bpelsg.ca.gov/applicants/faq_eng.pdf
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Offline Just_Victor

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Re: Engineer fined $500 for calling himself 'engineer'
« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2017, 08:38:09 pm »
Engineer fined $500 for calling himself 'engineer'
State penalizes man who found problem with red-light cameras
Published: 15 hours ago
 

Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2017/04/engineer-fined-500-for-calling-himself-engineer/#uklz7bosE1fXHD2Q.99

If you're not certified by the state as a Professional Engineer, you cannot legally represent yourself as an "engineer."  I have to say that "I have a degree in Mechanical Engineering."
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Offline thackney

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Re: Engineer fined $500 for calling himself 'engineer'
« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2017, 09:02:38 pm »
I'm registered engineer in Texas, and none of the enforcement actions there are of the type this guy got hit with. Every one of them are guys who either falsely stamped work as a Texas PE or advertised Engineering services without being registered.

And just one word of warning.  I'm seeing more violations of Continuing Education credits in recent years.
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Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: Engineer fined $500 for calling himself 'engineer'
« Reply #15 on: April 27, 2017, 09:03:46 pm »
In Texas, it is more clear.  You cannot claim to be an engineer without being registered.  You cannot create the impression that you are

That may be your experience, but I have sat in many a courtroom and before the Texas Railroad Commission, sworn an oath to tell the truth and when asked what I was, I replied "An engineer".  I am not a registered Professional Engineer in Texas.

My testimony has always been accepted nevertheless.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2017, 09:04:53 pm by IsailedawayfromFR »
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Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: Engineer fined $500 for calling himself 'engineer'
« Reply #16 on: April 27, 2017, 09:05:39 pm »
If you're not certified by the state as a Professional Engineer, you cannot legally represent yourself as an "engineer."  I have to say that "I have a degree in Mechanical Engineering."
Baloney.   See post 16.
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Offline thackney

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Re: Engineer fined $500 for calling himself 'engineer'
« Reply #17 on: April 27, 2017, 09:06:41 pm »
That may be your experience, but I have sat in many a courtroom and before the Texas Railroad Commission, sworn an oath to tell the truth and when asked what I was, I replied "An engineer".  I am not a registered Professional Engineer in Texas.

My testimony has always been accepted nevertheless.

I've been under the impression that in the court room, being registered in the state was a requirement to testifying as an engineer.
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Offline thackney

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Re: Engineer fined $500 for calling himself 'engineer'
« Reply #18 on: April 27, 2017, 09:13:14 pm »
That may be your experience, but I have sat in many a courtroom and before the Texas Railroad Commission, sworn an oath to tell the truth and when asked what I was, I replied "An engineer".  I am not a registered Professional Engineer in Texas.

My testimony has always been accepted nevertheless.

To be clear, it has never been my experience.  I have never seen that enforced.  It is only my understanding of what the law reads, and discussion among many engineers I've worked with.
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Offline rodamala

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Re: Engineer fined $500 for calling himself 'engineer'
« Reply #19 on: April 27, 2017, 09:17:18 pm »
I had bad advice from another PE when I was young.  He had his stamp stolen and then was later sued by the client of the guy who stole the stamp.  Consequently, I worked for a couple decades without getting my PE.  Then I was offered a Chief Engineer position, requiring my Alaska PE.  I took the FE (EIT) exam about 2 decades after finishing college.  I passed, but it was a miserable experience.  I spent lots of hours relearning subjects I hadn't looked since then.  The PE (P&P) was far easier as I could select the power option and have much more applicable work.

I started as a design draftsman working for my old man's consulting engineering firm when I was a kid in H.S.

After H.S. I pounded railroad spikes for 5 years, saving every nickel to eventually apply for and pay my own way through Engineering School.

After getting my B.S.M.E., I wound up as chief mechanical officicer at the shortline I started at... then went to GE to work a field management position working on locomotives and was removed from engineering... until I quit and went back to NJ.  I was like 5 years out from getting my degree, had the time, so took a refresher course and passed the EIT on my first try.

Much of the work I have done in the past 10 years since getting my EIT has been Civil, under PEs, but I spent so much time in the field directly managing projects, and providing expertise on track construction gained from 25 years of being in the business... which is heads and shoulders of anyone in my office, including the PEs.

I find that CEs just wave their hands around and bullshit alot looking to pin problems on contractors or difficult clients... and just fudge everything.

After 6 years of being shot at in Hobbs, working 14 hour days for 40 straight days... I am now on the street looking for work.  I just ran into former coworkers at a trade show... and boom... there are 2 PE references.

It's time to do it... rather than get all embroiled in legalities of if I am doing "engineering".  In my line of work, running surveying equipment or pulling tape to either get existing track alignments or nail down final alignments in the field for contractors is normal.... are they going to hang me for not being a PLS too?

Maybe I will just go back to pounding spikes.  Being a P.E. anymore is just about taking continuing education credits, yearly.

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: Engineer fined $500 for calling himself 'engineer'
« Reply #20 on: April 27, 2017, 09:28:51 pm »
To be clear, it has never been my experience.  I have never seen that enforced.  It is only my understanding of what the law reads, and discussion among many engineers I've worked with.
I believe what you are really saying is one cannot claim to advertise being an engineer for hire.

The companies I worked for accepted my qualifications as an engineer regardless of whether I was a registered professional engineer.
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: Engineer fined $500 for calling himself 'engineer'
« Reply #21 on: April 27, 2017, 09:32:57 pm »
I took the FE (EIT) exam about 2 decades after finishing college.  I passed, but it was a miserable experience.  I spent lots of hours relearning subjects I hadn't looked since then.  The PE (P&P) was far easier as I could select the power option and have much more applicable work.
I never became a Professional Engineer because of the fee.  At the time, $50 was too much to cough up for a young and struggling engineer.  And it really would not have made any difference in my career working for a number of companies and being a self-employed consultant.
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline driftdiver

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Re: Engineer fined $500 for calling himself 'engineer'
« Reply #22 on: April 27, 2017, 09:39:21 pm »
Well the world is safer when this guy isn't using the word engineer to attack poorly engineered traffic systems.  By golly we'd better go after those software and network engineers next.
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Offline Sanguine

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Re: Engineer fined $500 for calling himself 'engineer'
« Reply #23 on: April 27, 2017, 09:40:11 pm »
It's interesting that we have so many engineers here.   

Offline driftdiver

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Re: Engineer fined $500 for calling himself 'engineer'
« Reply #24 on: April 27, 2017, 09:41:04 pm »
It's interesting that we have so many engineers here.

You used the e word.  That'll be $500
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