Author Topic: Freedom Caucus endorses revised ObamaCare repeal-and-replace bill  (Read 5311 times)

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Offline Polly Ticks

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Re: Freedom Caucus endorses revised ObamaCare repeal-and-replace bill
« Reply #50 on: April 27, 2017, 04:39:44 pm »
It is related, actually. If you don't think Obama care is really a transfer of funds to the 1.3 million uninsurable HIV/AIDS from those who choose to live a more healthy lifestyle, think again. The health care (not insurance) tab is anticipated to be a trillion dollars for the currently infected, and the numbers continue to grow. The highest concentrations of homosexuals in the country aren't in San Francisco, they're in Washington D.C. and Hawaii. https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/press/press-releases/lgbt-percentages-highest-in-washington-dc-and-hawaii/

Just as taxpayers are picking up the tab for people who made lousy educational decisions and poor life choices in other areas (Welfare, Drugs, Crime, etc.), we're picking up the tab for people whose licentiousness is more expensive than ever. Keep funding social/moral/cultural and ultimately economic decay and we'll get more.

Off-topic, but what's the deal with South Dakota?  I took a look at your link, and the 10 states with the highest rate of LGBT populations are largely what you'd expect -- East/West coast blue states.  And then there's South Dakota, coming in with the 8th highest population.   ???





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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Freedom Caucus endorses revised ObamaCare repeal-and-replace bill
« Reply #51 on: April 27, 2017, 04:59:26 pm »
Let's get real here folks --- The reality is that *NOTHING* is going to pass that doesn’t allow for coverage of pre existing conditions.

We might want to tell ourselves that this is not how insurance works and give all the usual analogies with car insurance but ... Too many people have their lives on the line to give a fig about the economics, greater impact or ideological purity of *ANYTHING* that doesn’t mandate/provide coverage for people who would be excluded due to pre existing conditions.

I have a number of friends, co workers and general acquaintances who are reasonably conservative. However, due to job loss or such, could would not be covered and couldn’t afford to buy coverage with their conditions (some of which are their fault, some not).

I get the ideological, patriotic and economic arguments, but they simply don’t matter in the slightest if you’ve got cancer or a heart condition, always had coverage with your employer, and then got laid off or otherwise found yourself without insurance. Survival trumps everything. Acknowledging that reality would lead to something that might pass.

We might wish this were not so, but IT IS SO.

Yes it is.  And the reason is what you touched upon -  good health insurance coverage in this country is a matter of good luck - good luck to work for an employer that provides quality, affordable health coverage,  and to keep that job.    When the job is lost, the security of knowing a medical catastrophe won't bankrupt you flies right out the window. 

The systemic problem is our employer-based health care financing system.   Do we resolve to change that, or diddle around the margins to help those who've lost in life's lottery?   
« Last Edit: April 27, 2017, 05:00:42 pm by Jazzhead »
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Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: Freedom Caucus endorses revised ObamaCare repeal-and-replace bill
« Reply #52 on: April 27, 2017, 04:59:44 pm »
Off-topic, but what's the deal with South Dakota?  I took a look at your link, and the 10 states with the highest rate of LGBT populations are largely what you'd expect -- East/West coast blue states.  And then there's South Dakota, coming in with the 8th highest population.   ???

Well, only a dozen people live in the whole state, so that one pair of lesbians in Sioux Falls really throws off the percentages.

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: Freedom Caucus endorses revised ObamaCare repeal-and-replace bill
« Reply #53 on: April 27, 2017, 05:01:08 pm »
I understand that, Sir, but I think we need to handle those who cannot buy into an insurance plan differently.  They need to go into a high-risk pool, or go on a state medical coverage account, or something, but the two scenarios need to be treated differently.

There is health insurance, and then there is something needed for those who don't fit into an insurance scenario.

Well, the new bill does permit states to opt-out of the pre-existing coverage requirement and go for high-risk pools if they wish.

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: Freedom Caucus endorses revised ObamaCare repeal-and-replace bill
« Reply #54 on: April 27, 2017, 05:01:56 pm »
Yes it is.  And the reason is what you touched upon -  good health insurance coverage in this country is a matter of good luck - good luck to work for an employer that provides quality, affordable health coverage,  and to keep that job.    When the job is lost, the security of knowing a medical catastrophe won't bankrupt you flies right out the window. 

The systemic problem is our employer-based health care financing system.   Do we resolve to change that, or diddle around the margins to help those who've lost in life's lottery?

I don't think that having a good job is just a matter of luck, and equivalent to "winning the lottery".

Offline Polly Ticks

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Re: Freedom Caucus endorses revised ObamaCare repeal-and-replace bill
« Reply #55 on: April 27, 2017, 05:11:06 pm »
Well, only a dozen people live in the whole state, so that one pair of lesbians in Sioux Falls really throws off the percentages.

You might be on to something there!
Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good, too. -Yogi Berra

Offline skeeter

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Re: Freedom Caucus endorses revised ObamaCare repeal-and-replace bill
« Reply #56 on: April 27, 2017, 05:58:16 pm »
I don't think that having a good job is just a matter of luck, and equivalent to "winning the lottery".

Its not, any more than having a decent salary, or - heaven forbid - being considered 'wealthy'.

That kind of terminology is better suited to a university social science classroom.

Offline bilo

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Re: Freedom Caucus endorses revised ObamaCare repeal-and-replace bill
« Reply #57 on: April 27, 2017, 06:07:27 pm »
It was the Tuesday Group that doomed the first proposal

And they sure didn't have any problem running for election promising to repeal obamacare.
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Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: Freedom Caucus endorses revised ObamaCare repeal-and-replace bill
« Reply #58 on: April 27, 2017, 06:11:41 pm »
Let's get real here folks --- The reality is that *NOTHING* is going to pass that doesn’t allow for coverage of pre existing conditions.

We might want to tell ourselves that this is not how insurance works and give all the usual analogies with car insurance but ... Too many people have their lives on the line to give a fig about the economics, greater impact or ideological purity of *ANYTHING* that doesn’t mandate/provide coverage for people who would be excluded due to pre existing conditions.


I get the ideological, patriotic and economic arguments, but they simply don’t matter in the slightest if you’ve got cancer or a heart condition, always had coverage with your employer, and then got laid off or otherwise found yourself without insurance. Survival trumps everything. Acknowledging that reality would lead to something that might pass.

We might wish this were not so, but IT IS SO.


You tell us to acknowledge the political reality,  and yet you won't acknowledge the reality reality.   The math doesn't work.   The math cannot be made to work.   You need to read this:


The Cold Equations.




One of the major problems with this nation is the habit of putting off grim decisions that might actually work in lieu of comfortable touchy feely solutions that cannot possibly work.   


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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Freedom Caucus endorses revised ObamaCare repeal-and-replace bill
« Reply #59 on: April 27, 2017, 06:12:18 pm »
I don't think that having a good job is just a matter of luck, and equivalent to "winning the lottery".

Not all "good jobs" have health benefits.  Many smaller employers can't afford to offer them.  Are you suggesting that small employers don't provide good jobs?   And at larger companies,  downturns in business conditions can force layoffs, causing good, hard working folks to lose their jobs and health benefits.

Yes,  having good health coverage in this country is indeed a matter of good luck.  It shouldn't be that way.   
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Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: Freedom Caucus endorses revised ObamaCare repeal-and-replace bill
« Reply #60 on: April 27, 2017, 06:16:01 pm »


The systemic problem is our employer-based health care financing system.   



This is part of the problem.   It is not the whole problem.   The Universities and State Governments restricts the supply of medical care providers.    The Universities charge far too much for education,  and the Government enables their economic control over credentials.   


‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
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Offline driftdiver

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Re: Freedom Caucus endorses revised ObamaCare repeal-and-replace bill
« Reply #61 on: April 27, 2017, 06:18:14 pm »
Not all "good jobs" have health benefits.  Many smaller employers can't afford to offer them.  Are you suggesting that small employers don't provide good jobs?   And at larger companies,  downturns in business conditions can force layoffs, causing good, hard working folks to lose their jobs and health benefits.

Yes,  having good health coverage in this country is indeed a matter of good luck.  It shouldn't be that way.   

@Jazzhead

There are many problems with the current model but "luck" is a fantasy.   "Luck" comes from being prepared, hard work  and attention to deal.   Yes layoffs happen (been there)  but the problem is really with the set up of the insurance industry.   Why should health insurance only be available through the govt or through an employer?     I'm a small employer and pay 100% of the premium for my employees.  Its not hard.  It is expensive but its something you have to make a priority.  Why not get rid of this practice of allowing each insurance company to manipulate their plans and premiums.  Put some real competition in the system, across state lines and to encourage more companies to sell insurance.

Liberals think it should be free, but then they think everything should be free.
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Offline libertybele

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Re: Freedom Caucus endorses revised ObamaCare repeal-and-replace bill
« Reply #62 on: April 27, 2017, 06:20:05 pm »
Yes it is.  And the reason is what you touched upon -  good health insurance coverage in this country is a matter of good luck - good luck to work for an employer that provides quality, affordable health coverage,  and to keep that job.    When the job is lost, the security of knowing a medical catastrophe won't bankrupt you flies right out the window. 

The systemic problem is our employer-based health care financing system.   Do we resolve to change that, or diddle around the margins to help those who've lost in life's lottery?

Part of Cruz's healthcare plan is de-linking health insurance from the workplace.  I'm hoping the House bill moves to the Senate where it can be done right!
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Offline Sanguine

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Re: Freedom Caucus endorses revised ObamaCare repeal-and-replace bill
« Reply #63 on: April 27, 2017, 06:44:02 pm »
I don't think that having a good job is just a matter of luck, and equivalent to "winning the lottery".

Of course it is.  Take me for instance, one beautiful spring day, many years ago, I was standing on the sidewalk and a man walked up to me and whispered: "Hey, little lady, want to come and work for me and make lots of money?"  And, of course I said "yes", and followed him.  I knew that without a high school diploma or a college degree and three kids (all of their daddies did have some money taken out of their earnings in prison and sent to me) and no marketable skills, I'd better take what I could get!  And, voila!  I had a job that paid well and has benefits and they can't fire me now.  It's wonderful.  I won the lottery!

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Re: Freedom Caucus endorses revised ObamaCare repeal-and-replace bill
« Reply #64 on: April 27, 2017, 06:44:21 pm »
"Repeal and Replace" is the biggest lie of the year so far. These proposals do neither.

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Re: Freedom Caucus endorses revised ObamaCare repeal-and-replace bill
« Reply #65 on: April 27, 2017, 06:45:47 pm »
Its not, any more than having a decent salary, or - heaven forbid - being considered 'wealthy'.

You guys are all wealthy compared to me, so it's not fair. lol... just kidding about that 'not fair' thing.

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Freedom Caucus endorses revised ObamaCare repeal-and-replace bill
« Reply #66 on: April 27, 2017, 07:20:17 pm »
@Jazzhead

   Why should health insurance only be available through the govt or through an employer?     

GROUP insurance is generally available only through the government or through one's employer.   The advantage of group insurance is that any employee regardless of health status gets insured.  Membership in the group is what guarantees access to coverage.    But if you lose your job,  you're no longer a member of the group (yes,  you can for a limited time continue group coverage under COBRA, but you know how expensive it is - and how valuable your employer's group health insurance really is.)   

Many of us who are unable to obtain group health insurance can purchase health insurance in the individual market.   But traditionally, the insurer will require proof that you don't suffer from a pre-existing condition.   Usually, you wouldn't be denied the policy, but it wouldn't cover costs related to the pre-existing condition, at least for a time.   The specific rules were provided by state insurance regulation.

Some states, prior to the ACA,  required "guaranteed issue" insurance in the individual market.   Such insurance was always far more expensive that policies that excluded coverage for pre-existing conditions,  but at least that coverage was available to those who lost their group insurance (and could afford the premiums).    The ACA is essentially the extension of guaranteed issue individual coverage on the national level.  Predictably,  the cost of such insurance is insanely expensive, except to the extent propped up by government subsidies and rules that force the young and healthy to pay more so the old and sick can pay less.   It is that nationwide system of guaranteed issue insurance that the ACHA is intended to fix (NOT replace).   
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Offline Emjay

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Re: Freedom Caucus endorses revised ObamaCare repeal-and-replace bill
« Reply #67 on: April 27, 2017, 07:51:45 pm »
Off-topic, but what's the deal with South Dakota?  I took a look at your link, and the 10 states with the highest rate of LGBT populations are largely what you'd expect -- East/West coast blue states.  And then there's South Dakota, coming in with the 8th highest population.   ???

Hawaii is No. 1.  Well, I did get the best perm I've ever gotten from a nice-looking guy over here.
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Offline roamer_1

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Re: Freedom Caucus endorses revised ObamaCare repeal-and-replace bill
« Reply #68 on: April 27, 2017, 08:00:54 pm »
I understand that, Sir, but I think we need to handle those who cannot buy into an insurance plan differently.  They need to go into a high-risk pool, or go on a state medical coverage account, or something, but the two scenarios need to be treated differently.

There is health insurance, and then there is something needed for those who don't fit into an insurance scenario.

And herein lies the fallacy in the idea that insurance is beneficial in the least.
The moment is it forced into insuring the in-insurable, the price is so high as to be insurmountable.

All y'all are wasting your time, rearranging deck chairs. The problem is not government insurance.
The problem is the idea of insurance at all.

Inevitably, what will result is a very high cost, very high deductible insurance which will invariably and inevitably omit or limit coverage on expensive procedures. Socialist ideas ALWAYS lower all boats, because socialism ignores basic economic principles.

What we had was as close to health-care-for-all that will ever be achieved.

People who could afford it had insurance to take care of moderate health troubles...
But if something truly awful happened, that coverage would cease to exist, because covering long term illnesses or unknown illnesses is literally and completely not affordable. In such cases, the poor bastard has to lose everything - basically crapping out and losing all his chips in the game of life... And then becomes eligible for coverage via public assistance and charitable organizations.

That's as good as you'll ever get, people.
when sh*t happens, you have to crash and burn. You don't get to keep all your stuff.
You can insure till the cows come home, but it will always turn out the same.

There HAS to be risk.
Risk HAS to have consequences.

Anything else is slipping an iron collar around all our necks.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2017, 08:03:15 pm by roamer_1 »

Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: Freedom Caucus endorses revised ObamaCare repeal-and-replace bill
« Reply #69 on: April 27, 2017, 08:14:04 pm »


All y'all are wasting your time, rearranging deck chairs. The problem is not government insurance.
The problem is the idea of insurance at all.



This!
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Offline corbe

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Re: Freedom Caucus endorses revised ObamaCare repeal-and-replace bill
« Reply #70 on: April 27, 2017, 09:03:04 pm »
The newest 'Trumpcare' vote may already be in trouble — for the exact opposite reason as last time

Bob Bryan


After drawing conservative Republicans on board to the American Health Care Act, Republican leadership appears set to try to bring back the American Health Care Act to the House floor for a vote. 

But the fate of the legislation appeared to be in doubt Thursday as leaders raced to get the support of moderate Republican lawmakers.

An amendment released Tuesday night, authored by moderate Rep. Tom MacArthur, appeared to placate conservatives who did not think the original AHCA went far enough in its repeal of Obamacare.

The amendment would allow states to apply for a waiver that would exempt their insurance markets from certain regulations created by the Affordable Care Act, or Obamacare, if they can prove it would bring down costs.

The waiver, health policy experts argue, could have negative consequences for people with preexisting conditions and  allow insurers to offer plans that cover fewer health needs.


<..snip..>

http://www.businessinsider.com/ahca-vote-count-moderate-republicans-trumpcare-2017-4
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Offline Applewood

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Re: Freedom Caucus endorses revised ObamaCare repeal-and-replace bill
« Reply #71 on: April 27, 2017, 10:38:50 pm »
"Repeal and Replace" is the biggest lie of the year so far. These proposals do neither.

Yet, every time I hear or read about this new proposed legislation, it's almost always called a repeal.

If it don't say REPEAL, it ain't repeal.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Freedom Caucus endorses revised ObamaCare repeal-and-replace bill
« Reply #72 on: April 27, 2017, 11:19:50 pm »
Off-topic, but what's the deal with South Dakota?  I took a look at your link, and the 10 states with the highest rate of LGBT populations are largely what you'd expect -- East/West coast blue states.  And then there's South Dakota, coming in with the 8th highest population.   ???
I have no idea, unless it is the East side of the state, associated with the casinos, or the AF put all their DADT people in Rapid City.
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