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Offline endicom

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What Marine Le Pen Is Really About
« on: April 26, 2017, 02:34:57 pm »
American Thinker
Bruce Walker
Apr. 26, 2017

Charles Krauthammer is a very bright guy who is nearly always right on the issues, but his argument that a Le Pen victory in the French presidential election would be a disaster for Europe is utterly wrong-headed.  France, he said on Fox News last week, is the lynchpin of modern Europe and is necessary to prevent a return to the sort of nationalism that plagued the continent during the last century.

The nationalism he is referring to was the hyper-aggressive attitude of Germany, Italy, and Russia – whose misconduct is well known – and also of Poland, whose arbitrary annexation of Vilnius and grab of Teschen during the partition of Czechoslovakia needlessly disrupted Eastern Europe.  The problem then, as now, is not "nationalism," which is neither good nor bad in itself, but rather aggressive nationalism that threatens neighbors.

More... http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2017/04/what_marine_le_pen_is_really_about.html


This is not really about Le Pen but about nationalism.

Offline r9etb

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Re: What Marine Le Pen Is Really About
« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2017, 03:03:47 pm »
Quote
The nationalism he is referring to was the hyper-aggressive attitude of Germany, Italy, and Russia – whose misconduct is well known – and also of Poland, whose arbitrary annexation of Vilnius and grab of Teschen during the partition of Czechoslovakia needlessly disrupted Eastern Europe. 

The author quite conveniently neglects to mention France in that list.  As he must, if his argument is to have any validity.  On the topic of nationalism, any discussion of WWII must begin with its roots in the First World War.  The author fails to take that into account.

France had its own hyper-aggressive nationalist attitude in the run-up to WWI, and French Nationalism played a significant role in building the cascade of alliances and declarations of war that led to catastrophe.

And lest we forget -- France is a very nationalistic country even today.  De Gaulle's decision to keep France out of NATO, and their go-it-alone approach to foreign policy even as they're part of the EU, is part of that.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2017, 03:07:27 pm by r9etb »

Online mountaineer

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Re: What Marine Le Pen Is Really About
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2017, 03:34:17 pm »
I think "nationalism" is being defined just about any way one wants to define it. Even simple "I love my country" patriotism can be criticized as dangerous nationalism by some.
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Offline Cripplecreek

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Re: What Marine Le Pen Is Really About
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2017, 03:40:23 pm »
I'm not a globalist and can't understand why so many on the right claim to be anti globalist yet want some kind of influence in a foreign election.

Offline r9etb

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Re: What Marine Le Pen Is Really About
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2017, 03:49:07 pm »
I think "nationalism" is being defined just about any way one wants to define it. Even simple "I love my country" patriotism can be criticized as dangerous nationalism by some.

Good point -- it's become an epithet, rather than a descriptive term.

Of course, there are pretty good reasons for that -- again, look at the role that true nationalism played in causing WWI.  There's a a point beyond which "good" nationalism can turn into "bad" nationalism.

In the case of Marine Le Pen, "nationalism" seems to coincide with serious antipathy toward those whom she and her party view as "not sufficiently French," Muslims in particular.

Granting the real difficulties posed by the more fundamentalist segments of France's Muslim population (I don't know what percentage they represent, but it's not all Muslims in France), it's rather easy to see France under Le Pen returning to the standards set by Vichy France, which the National Front party has a history of defending.

It's fun and easy to characterize modern France as being a push-over, but in reality the French can be utterly vicious when they want to be.  It's really not difficult to imagine that a Le Pen government would institute policies of oppression, with unpleasant consequences not only for France, but for Europe as a whole.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2017, 03:49:34 pm by r9etb »

Offline endicom

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Re: What Marine Le Pen Is Really About
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2017, 03:55:19 pm »
I think "nationalism" is being defined just about any way one wants to define it.

Yes, and that is a trendy thing. A few months ago you saw 'alt-right' everywhere but that was in struggling to tie Trump to an assortment of bigots. That wore thin so now 'nationalism' and 'populism' are the bugaboo terms.

Quote
Even simple "I love my country" patriotism can be criticized as dangerous nationalism by some.

Can be and is. Maybe we should curse those damned nationalists at Valley Forge and wish they had frozen to death.

Offline r9etb

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Re: What Marine Le Pen Is Really About
« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2017, 03:59:24 pm »
Can be and is. Maybe we should curse those damned nationalists at Valley Forge and wish they had frozen to death.

OTOH, perhaps you'd be more willing to curse the damned nationalists who caused a couple of world wars.  Not to mention the damned nationalists in places like China, Russia, and elsewhere (we could maybe even lump Radical Islam with them), who seem to be taking us back to those halcyon days of Great Power geopolitics.

Nationalism is fine, within pretty narrow boundaries.  At some point it becomes a menace.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2017, 03:59:51 pm by r9etb »

Offline Cripplecreek

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Re: What Marine Le Pen Is Really About
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2017, 04:05:11 pm »
OTOH, perhaps you'd be more willing to curse the damned nationalists who caused a couple of world wars.  Not to mention the damned nationalists in places like China, Russia, and elsewhere (we could maybe even lump Radical Islam with them), who seem to be taking us back to those halcyon days of Great Power geopolitics.

Nationalism is fine, within pretty narrow boundaries.  At some point it becomes a menace.

The real problem is still that Americans are completely ignorant of the ideological differences between the right of the Anglosphere and the right of the rest of the non English speaking world. We have more in common with the Nigerian right than we have with the right in France.

Euro nationalism has not been all unicorns and rainbows.

geronl

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Re: What Marine Le Pen Is Really About
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2017, 04:21:22 pm »
Le Pin is a far-left radical by US standards, she is not a friend of liberty

Offline truth_seeker

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Re: What Marine Le Pen Is Really About
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2017, 04:30:52 pm »
Mark me down supporting whoever and whatever opposes violent, expansionist, political, terrorist islam. Period.

Le Pen and Wilders fit that description.

BTW here is a list of conflicts in Europe through history:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_conflicts_in_Europe

As a matter of historic accuracy, Germany only became a unified "nation" in 1871, and Italy only became a unified "nation" in 1861

Therefore taking a narrow view of world history, through the tiny lens of "nationalism" as it pertained to Germany and Italy is naïve, overly simplistic, etc.

And there wouldn't be a US of A, without a significant amount of "nationalism."
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Online Bigun

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Re: What Marine Le Pen Is Really About
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2017, 04:32:26 pm »
Mark me down supporting whoever and whatever opposes violent, expansionist, political, terrorist islam. Period.

Le Pen and Wilders fit that description.

BTW here is a list of conflicts in Europe through history:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_conflicts_in_Europe

As a matter of historic accuracy, Germany only became a unified "nation" in 1871, and Italy only became a unified "nation" in 1861

Therefore taking a narrow view of world history, through the tiny lens of "nationalism" as it pertained to Germany and Italy is naïve, overly simplistic, etc.

And there wouldn't be a US of A, without a significant amount of "nationalism."

Add me to that list as well!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
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Online mountaineer

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Re: What Marine Le Pen Is Really About
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2017, 07:26:55 pm »
Le Pin is a far-left radical by US standards, she is not a friend of liberty
I wouldn't want her to be my president, but if France doesn't do something about the influx of radical Muslim faux refugees, i.e., terrorists, it has no future. The other candidate probably can't be trusted to protect French citizens in that respect.  :shrug:
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geronl

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Re: What Marine Le Pen Is Really About
« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2017, 07:46:56 pm »

And there wouldn't be a US of A, without a significant amount of "nationalism."

Yet before the civil war many Americans identified more with their sovereign state

Offline r9etb

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Re: What Marine Le Pen Is Really About
« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2017, 07:50:38 pm »
I wouldn't want her to be my president, but if France doesn't do something about the influx of radical Muslim faux refugees, i.e., terrorists, it has no future. The other candidate probably can't be trusted to protect French citizens in that respect.  :shrug:

There are a lot of ways to "do something," of course, not all of which are consistent with the actions of a free society. 

The presenting question is what Le Pen's National Front party would propose to do about them: would they rely on legal/policy means to deal with the problem, or would they go as far as rounding up and deporting large numbers of Muslims?

In the latter case, violence would be a near certainty, and the very act of conducting "mass deportations" would raise the specter of earlier "mass deportations," particularly by Vichy France. 

In fact, I believe the memory of those atrocities is what drives much of Europe's unwillingness to deal rationally with the refugee influx.

Any serious attempt by a Le Pen government to do anything along the line of mass deportations would probably result in the fall of same.

Offline r9etb

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Re: What Marine Le Pen Is Really About
« Reply #14 on: April 26, 2017, 07:52:13 pm »
Yet before the civil war many Americans identified more with their sovereign state

OTOH, the writing and adoption of the Constitution was precisely a "nationalist" endeavor.  The earlier Confederation failed precisely because it was not "national" enough.

Offline endicom

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Re: What Marine Le Pen Is Really About
« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2017, 08:36:22 pm »
OTOH, perhaps you'd be more willing to curse the damned nationalists who caused a couple of world wars.  Not to mention the damned nationalists in places like China, Russia, and elsewhere (we could maybe even lump Radical Islam with them), who seem to be taking us back to those halcyon days of Great Power geopolitics.

Nationalism is fine, within pretty narrow boundaries.  At some point it becomes a menace.


For Mussolini, Hitler and Tojo, nationalism was a tactic, part of the mythos. They were all expansionist with Hitler and Tojo being extremely racist. Racial supremacy and not national boundary and culture were what drove the Nazi and Shinto boys. That wouldn't work with Italians so the Fascist myth involved a revived Roman Empire.

The Soviets and PRC were always internationalist. Stalin fell back on Russian nationalism only when that was needed to fend off the Germans.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2017, 08:37:23 pm by endicom »

Offline Fishrrman

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Re: What Marine Le Pen Is Really About
« Reply #16 on: April 27, 2017, 02:55:48 am »
I guess Charles Martel and Vlad the Impaler were "nationalists".
Perhaps even of the "extremist" kind.

Where would Western Europe have been without them?

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: What Marine Le Pen Is Really About
« Reply #17 on: April 27, 2017, 07:17:01 am »
I'm not a globalist and can't understand why so many on the right claim to be anti globalist yet want some kind of influence in a foreign election.
Bingo! It's their country.

If they want to (within their own borders) be patriotic, reclaim their national identity from the fallacious drivel of multiculturalism, and kick out those who have gone there to cause trouble and undermine their way of life (sans genocide), then that is their business.

Enough of this world cop crap. If we are to be the beacon of freedom, let others want to emulate that light of their own accord. We can't force them to be free.

Besides, we could do with a little dusting off our own Liberty, first.
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Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: What Marine Le Pen Is Really About
« Reply #18 on: April 27, 2017, 07:17:54 am »
I guess Charles Martel and Vlad the Impaler were "nationalists".
Perhaps even of the "extremist" kind.

Where would Western Europe have been without them?
Where it is going if they don't wake up.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: What Marine Le Pen Is Really About
« Reply #19 on: April 27, 2017, 07:24:32 am »
OTOH, perhaps you'd be more willing to curse the damned nationalists who caused a couple of world wars.  Not to mention the damned nationalists in places like China, Russia, and elsewhere (we could maybe even lump Radical Islam with them), who seem to be taking us back to those halcyon days of Great Power geopolitics.

Nationalism is fine, within pretty narrow boundaries.  At some point it becomes a menace.
The Nationalist Chinese ended up on Formosa (Taiwan). Despite Chiang's entreaties, we let the Communists under Mao have the mainland.

In Russia, China, and often elsewhere we are dealing with Socialists and Marxists, despite their trade as a weapon asymmetrical (economic) warfare that masquerades as Capitalism but only exists at the sufferance of the State.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2017, 07:25:03 am by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Online Bigun

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Re: What Marine Le Pen Is Really About
« Reply #20 on: April 27, 2017, 01:05:04 pm »
The Nationalist Chinese ended up on Formosa (Taiwan). Despite Chiang's entreaties, we let the Communists under Mao have the mainland.

In Russia, China, and often elsewhere we are dealing with Socialists and Marxists, despite their trade as a weapon asymmetrical (economic) warfare that masquerades as Capitalism but only exists at the sufferance of the State.

And the operative word there is WE!  And it is absolutely true that WE betrayed General Chang in favor of the Communists under Mao in China.  WE also put Castro in power in Cuba along with Daniel Noriega in Nicaragua. Not to mention cutting the legs out from under the South Vietnamese government and allowing the Communist takeover there.

Almost forgot to add that while Lenin and Uncle Joe Stalin were annihilating MILLIONS of their countrymen WE were propping them up!

And BTW: It was Jimmuh CAATA who allowed the Mullahs to return to Iran and take over the government there!  There is MUCH blood on our hands!
« Last Edit: April 27, 2017, 01:41:39 pm by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
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Offline Free Vulcan

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Re: What Marine Le Pen Is Really About
« Reply #21 on: April 27, 2017, 02:05:12 pm »
Nationalist and populist are also used as slur words by globalists who use it against anyone that gets in the way of their ambitions of global govt empire.
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Offline r9etb

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Re: What Marine Le Pen Is Really About
« Reply #22 on: April 27, 2017, 02:20:54 pm »
Nationalist and populist are also used as slur words by globalists ....

You wouldn't be guilty of the same sin, now, would you?

Offline Free Vulcan

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Re: What Marine Le Pen Is Really About
« Reply #23 on: April 27, 2017, 02:58:20 pm »
You wouldn't be guilty of the same sin, now, would you?

Are you?
The Republic is lost.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: What Marine Le Pen Is Really About
« Reply #24 on: April 27, 2017, 10:32:16 pm »
And the operative word there is WE!  And it is absolutely true that WE betrayed General Chang in favor of the Communists under Mao in China.  WE also put Castro in power in Cuba along with Daniel Noriega in Nicaragua. Not to mention cutting the legs out from under the South Vietnamese government and allowing the Communist takeover there.

Almost forgot to add that while Lenin and Uncle Joe Stalin were annihilating MILLIONS of their countrymen WE were propping them up!

And BTW: It was Jimmuh CAATA who allowed the Mullahs to return to Iran and take over the government there!  There is MUCH blood on our hands!
Either that, or it was a setup all along to provide neverending contracts for the "Military/Industrial Complex" Eisenhower warned us about. The 'Peanut Farmer' was a nukulur enginere, not just some goober rube.
The Noo Yawk Times and the State Department went against the CIA who had said Castro was a Communist and, between the Times and State, convinced JFK to pull the air support assets from the Bay of Pigs invasion, with the result that the freedom-loving Cuban Expatriates who wanted to return Cuba to a more Democratic Government enough to pick up a rifle were killed off.
There would have been no missile crisis if a few sorties had been flown against Cuban air and armor, and more of Miami would speak English. Elian Gonzales could have grown up at home with a mommy and a daddy instead of get nose to nose with an MP-5 in a closet.

Many years later, we supported the Mujaheddin against the Soviets in a place called Afghanistan. Just another out of the way proxy war, and through back channels more than not, but now are facing many of the same folks or their sons and daughters there ourselves. Like building up Saddam to fight the Iranians, then having to take him down, when after all, 15 of the 19 hijackers were from Saudi Arabia, whom we defended against Iraq when we chased the Iraqis out of Kuwait.

I have read an analysis of the attempted rescue operation that went up in smoke at Desert 1, and as a lifelong civilian can see the combination of interservice rivalry and perfusion of Murphy opportunity so severe that it is a testament to the quality and determination of our service personnel where the rubber meets the road that the operation even got as far as it did. Imho, the mission planners needed some coherent and cohesive leadership from the top, which was apparently just not on the same page. Lessons learned have hopefully improved that situation. The politicized Pentagon of today seems little better, and needs to quit playing at sociology class and get back to business: kicking our enemies' asses and breaking things.

Failure to support Chiang (who was no saint, either) led to Mao and the communists in power in China (and a slaughter that made Adolf Hitler and Stalin combined look like pikers), and a Communist Chinese Army my Father faced in Korea after they had pushed the North Koreans to the Yalu.

But all in all, and I'll admit my knowledge is limited to what I see and read, it seems that the more we meddle, or in some instances through the failure to intervene, the more we create our next adversary. The 20th century would at least make that a viewpoint that could be argued, especially since WWII when the pols just can't seem to get behind winning a war, period, or lack the foresight to anticipate the results of their actions.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis