Author Topic: Rear-view cameras on vehicles required by 2018  (Read 8251 times)

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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Rear-view cameras on vehicles required by 2018
« Reply #50 on: April 17, 2017, 11:50:48 pm »
The IIHS death rates for different vehicles pretty much sum up all the different issues with different types of vehicles regardless of crash tests, etc. That's the first thing I check when looking for a car for a family member. It also gives some indication of vehicles that better allow you to avoid an accident in the first place. Big and heavy do not usually help on that account.
It depends on where you are. Small, light vehicles (and those with a large sail area) get blown off the road here. Little vehicles can't punch through snow drifts, but are instead deflected and even overturned, and at low speeds get hung up.
In this environment, ground clearance counts, weight counts, power counts.
Then pay attention to what is going on and drive it defensively.
If you want ideal maneuverability and horse power to weight ratio, go with a motorcycle, but that isn't so good in a collision, and defensive driving is even more important, because even little cars don't 'see' you.  (Loud pipes save lives!)
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline DB

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Re: Rear-view cameras on vehicles required by 2018
« Reply #51 on: April 18, 2017, 12:05:06 am »
It depends on where you are. Small, light vehicles (and those with a large sail area) get blown off the road here. Little vehicles can't punch through snow drifts, but are instead deflected and even overturned, and at low speeds get hung up.
In this environment, ground clearance counts, weight counts, power counts.
Then pay attention to what is going on and drive it defensively.
If you want ideal maneuverability and horse power to weight ratio, go with a motorcycle, but that isn't so good in a collision, and defensive driving is even more important, because even little cars don't 'see' you.  (Loud pipes save lives!)

I'm not arguing small and light. Just that there's an optimum in the middle. I'm also not arguing that there are other factors, like what it is used for and where. And specifically, what I originally was addressing was pickup trucks from the 70's or 80's being safer than modern equivalents - I very much doubt that. There have been many engineering improvements over the years to both make them better handling and more survivable.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Rear-view cameras on vehicles required by 2018
« Reply #52 on: April 18, 2017, 12:33:42 am »
I'm not arguing small and light. Just that there's an optimum in the middle. I'm also not arguing that there are other factors, like what it is used for and where. And specifically, what I originally was addressing was pickup trucks from the 70's or 80's being safer than modern equivalents - I very much doubt that. There have been many engineering improvements over the years to both make them better handling and more survivable.
There is an optimum in the middle, but up here pickups and suburbans are the middle, among fleets of semis and winch trucks, the average family sedan is 'small'. If you are in a climate that does not get snow, your needs are different than here, where having a summer car and a winter vehicle is a bit of a luxury. You get what you need for the worst conditions you will drive in, or a little more. Not having seen any stats on survivability to compare 70s and 80s pickups to more modern ones, and not having been in a wreck since '80 in one (I got t-boned by a guy coming down a cross road, the yield sign on his road had been flattened and not replaced). I broke the rear wheels loose and the truck spun when hit. Both were totaled, but the raw impact to the one I was in was muted by the reduced traction. We both walked away from the wreck. That accident made me a much more defensive driver. I knew he was supposed to yield, I knew the roads, he did not. Had I not expected him to yield, I may have been better able to avoid the collision altogether. 
A fellow in a early 2000's Ford F-150 brought an end to the project pickup (66 Ford) I had on the road when he did the same to it, with my wife and two grandkids in the cab, wife driving. None of them were hurt, but the only truck that drove away was the '66.
There was a lot less metal in the trucks by the late '70s. 
My current pickup is an '87 Dodge, and the front is mostly metal (plastic grille).
Up here (North Dakota), bigger is better. Elsewhere, perhaps not so much. One size does not fit all.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Gefn

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Re: Rear-view cameras on vehicles required by 2018
« Reply #53 on: April 22, 2017, 12:41:44 pm »
When my father died this past October, he left money for my sister, my mother and me to get new cars because he was worried the ones we were currently driving might fail.

My sister bought hers while he was still alive, because we all knew about this money. I told him I didn't want to do anything until the summer until after my hip surgery and my car would be outside all winter I saw no reason to get a new one.

So now my mom has been saying it's time to look at new cars. To be honest, there is nothing wrong with my old car.

Mom and I have each looked at several models (2017) for ourselves, and saw the rear view thingy on every car. Not an option.

The thing is, we both decided we just aren't in love with the cars we have seen. Yes, they are beautiful cars, but we like the cars we are currently driving, so we will just keep our cars for now. Yes they are about ten years old but they run well.

To be honest, I miss my first car. A 76 Pontiac, no technology on it other than the tape deck I installed. You even had to manually roll down the windows.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2017, 12:42:51 pm by Freya »
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Offline mountaineer

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Re: Rear-view cameras on vehicles required by 2018
« Reply #54 on: April 22, 2017, 12:45:19 pm »
To be honest, I miss my first car. A 76 Pontiac, no technology on it other than the tape deck I installed. You even had to manually roll down the windows.
I'd love to have my '71 Plymouth Duster again. It would be even nicer with a rear-view camera, though. My current car ('14 Subaru) has it, and it's very helpful.
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Offline Gefn

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Re: Rear-view cameras on vehicles required by 2018
« Reply #55 on: April 22, 2017, 12:48:13 pm »
I'd love to have my '71 Plymouth Duster again. It would be even nicer with a rear-view camera, though. My current car ('14 Subaru) has it, and it's very helpful.

Wow. We were actually going to buy Subarus. Mom and I currently have Hondas. Thank you @mountaineer
« Last Edit: April 22, 2017, 12:48:49 pm by Freya »
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Offline mountaineer

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Re: Rear-view cameras on vehicles required by 2018
« Reply #56 on: April 22, 2017, 01:00:17 pm »
Subaru is a very good car and not as pricey as others in its class. I tried to buy American in 2014, but didn't like the options in the small SUV category and so went with the Forester.
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Online roamer_1

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Re: Rear-view cameras on vehicles required by 2018
« Reply #57 on: April 22, 2017, 08:41:40 pm »
Subaru is a very good car and not as pricey as others in its class. I tried to buy American in 2014, but didn't like the options in the small SUV category and so went with the Forester.

@mountaineer

And they WORK. Hillbilly life is notoriously hard on vehicles... You can be reasonably guaranteed you will find a 3/4T or better pickup truck in their yard... and a far better than average chance there will be a subaru too... to the point that in talking to them, 'subaru' has nearly replaced the word 'car'.

Not very much short of a heavy pickup can withstand 15-20 miles of pavement, another 7-10 miles of gravel, and probably 2 miles of forest track all the time, not to mention in the winter. Pretty much the only thing out there other than 4x4 pickups, 4-wheelers, and snowmachines has Subaru on the grill.

@Freya
« Last Edit: April 22, 2017, 08:42:05 pm by roamer_1 »

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Re: Rear-view cameras on vehicles required by 2018
« Reply #58 on: April 22, 2017, 09:25:03 pm »
I'd love to have my '71 Plymouth Duster again. It would be even nicer with a rear-view camera, though. My current car ('14 Subaru) has it, and it's very helpful.

Didn't Al Bundy drive a Duster?

Offline Frank Cannon

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Re: Rear-view cameras on vehicles required by 2018
« Reply #59 on: April 22, 2017, 09:30:33 pm »
Back up cameras are for idiots that don't know how mirrors work.

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Re: Rear-view cameras on vehicles required by 2018
« Reply #60 on: April 22, 2017, 09:52:44 pm »
I'd love to have my '71 Plymouth Duster again. It would be even nicer with a rear-view camera, though. My current car ('14 Subaru) has it, and it's very helpful.

Sibling to my '71 Plymouth Scamp.

Oceander

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Re: Rear-view cameras on vehicles required by 2018
« Reply #61 on: April 22, 2017, 09:53:15 pm »
Back up cameras are for idiots that don't know how mirrors work.

Not at all.

Offline Fishrrman

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Re: Rear-view cameras on vehicles required by 2018
« Reply #62 on: April 23, 2017, 02:52:29 am »
Freya wrote:
"To be honest, I miss my first car. A 76 Pontiac, no technology on it other than the tape deck I installed. You even had to manually roll down the windows."

Heh.
My very first car with air conditioning, power windows, and a -stereo- radio, was my Toyota RAV4 I bought in October of 2005.

Previous to that I'd been driving a 1993 Acura Integra without a/c, a radio (of any kind), and roll-down windows -- for 300,000 miles. (for music, I toted around a portable CD player and headphones)

With hip surgery, I'd suggest one of the current crop of mini-SUVs (like the RAV). Very easy to get in/out of!

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Rear-view cameras on vehicles required by 2018
« Reply #63 on: April 23, 2017, 03:40:10 am »
Subaru is a very good car and not as pricey as others in its class. I tried to buy American in 2014, but didn't like the options in the small SUV category and so went with the Forester.
A guy who worked with me on oil rigs bought a Subaru to replace his Tahoe. Better mileage, than the Tahoe, and a vehicle that would handle the trip from Wyoming to an oil rig in North Dakota in winter (without any trouble on the rig road).  He was excited to get it and thrilled with it once he did. A very capable vehicle for an off the lot SUV.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline mountaineer

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Re: Rear-view cameras on vehicles required by 2018
« Reply #64 on: April 23, 2017, 11:47:36 am »
I loved my old Escape. It was truck-like and got around 19 mpg. The new Escape is completely different and I really didn't like the interior, so we went with the Forester. The Subaru gets 29-30 mpg, which is nice. I still don't like that the rear window in any of the new small SUVs can't be opened. That was convenient in my old Escape whenever I had to buy some 2x4s; could just hang them out the back window. But you're right, @roamer_1 - the Subaru is very common around this part of WV. We have winding hilly roads, and the AWD is good to have in winter.
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Re: Rear-view cameras on vehicles required by 2018
« Reply #65 on: April 23, 2017, 02:14:09 pm »
Had 2 escapes prior to the redo.  loved em. The New ones cost to much so I bought a Subie.  Picked up a nicely equipped Crosstrek for @26K incl TT&L.  If I had to do it over again I'd go for the Forester even tho the trek is the better looking of the two  but the forester has more inside room for storage.  Currently  I need the Roof Basket for the extra stuff. 

Offline thackney

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Re: Rear-view cameras on vehicles required by 2018
« Reply #66 on: April 24, 2017, 12:09:12 pm »
Back up cameras are for idiots that don't know how mirrors work.

I haven't found a truck with mirrors that shows the trailer hitch.  World of difference when hooking up by yourself.
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Offline mirraflake

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Re: Rear-view cameras on vehicles required by 2018
« Reply #67 on: April 24, 2017, 12:46:00 pm »
Back up cameras are for idiots that don't know how mirrors work.
My wife's new Camaro has zero visibility out the rear window.- it comes standard with the camera.  Most new cars esp 4 doors have the sloped back roof and high trunk lid and you cannot see behind them at all.
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Offline Cripplecreek

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Re: Rear-view cameras on vehicles required by 2018
« Reply #68 on: April 24, 2017, 12:48:08 pm »
I haven't found a truck with mirrors that shows the trailer hitch.  World of difference when hooking up by yourself.

No doubt about it but it should still be optional.

Just yesterday I saw a Ford ad making the claim that all the technology was teaching kids to drive better. In reality it teaches them to rely too heavily on technology. I saw it about an hour after my sister almost hit a guy on a cycle because the technology on her 2017 Chevy Cruz decided the bike wasn't important enough to stop for while my sister was apparently just a passenger.

Offline thackney

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Re: Rear-view cameras on vehicles required by 2018
« Reply #69 on: April 24, 2017, 01:42:02 pm »
No doubt about it but it should still be optional.

Agreed.  I bought an aftermarket at Tractor Supply and added mine to my basic truck.
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Offline Cripplecreek

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Re: Rear-view cameras on vehicles required by 2018
« Reply #70 on: April 24, 2017, 02:18:42 pm »
Agreed.  I bought an aftermarket at Tractor Supply and added mine to my basic truck.

Exactly. The technology is fine for those of us who already have the responsibilities of driving deeply embedded in our psyche. The youth who are learning to drive today seem to believe they're absolved of those responsibilities. We have a case here in the county where a teenager is charged with vehicular manslaughter because he saw and ran over a pedestrian while assuming the car would handle it. (His car didn't have braking or steering assist, he assumed all cars had it.)

My sister is especially irritating because she knows better. She grew up driving beaters the same way I did but she's now ultra progressive and can only see a means of controlling others. She informed me that poor people shouldn't drive if they can't afford the ever more expensive new cars. Poor people should take public transportation which means they should all live in the city.


Online roamer_1

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Re: Rear-view cameras on vehicles required by 2018
« Reply #71 on: April 24, 2017, 02:24:57 pm »
No doubt about it but it should still be optional.

Just yesterday I saw a Ford ad making the claim that all the technology was teaching kids to drive better. In reality it teaches them to rely too heavily on technology. I saw it about an hour after my sister almost hit a guy on a cycle because the technology on her 2017 Chevy Cruz decided the bike wasn't important enough to stop for while my sister was apparently just a passenger.

I JUST met my first 'can't hook up a trailer because your truck doesn't have a backup cam' guy... Friend of my kid... After eight stabs on the mirrors, he just bailed. Doesn't know how to back it up on the mirrors. He's always had a backup cam.

How can you be a guy and not know how to back up a truck using mirrors???

Offline Cripplecreek

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Re: Rear-view cameras on vehicles required by 2018
« Reply #72 on: April 24, 2017, 02:47:07 pm »
I JUST met my first 'can't hook up a trailer because your truck doesn't have a backup cam' guy... Friend of my kid... After eight stabs on the mirrors, he just bailed. Doesn't know how to back it up on the mirrors. He's always had a backup cam.

How can you be a guy and not know how to back up a truck using mirrors???

I don't have a lot of experience with trailers but I grantee I could get within a couple of inches with a few trial and error attempts.

Offline LateForLunch

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Re: Rear-view cameras on vehicles required by 2018
« Reply #73 on: April 24, 2017, 03:50:43 pm »
Uh, no it won't make people that much safer. The problem is that they cameras only work in optimal weather conditions. I know, I use them regularly on a company-owned vehicle.

In severe cold, condensation / ice obscure the lens and when it rains, water droplets destroy visibility 100%. Are they also going to require tiny wipers or heating elements to deal with that? Of course not. So the net result is that people will grow too used to having them and then when they stop working, the drivers will be far more-unsafe than if they had always used conventional means to observe behind them in the first place.

All-but-guaranteed that for every person saved by such devices, one or more will die because the driver allowed themselves to be 100% dependent on a piece of technology that was not 100% functional 100% of the time.

The government will never learn that there is no way to legislate responsibility to those who will not exercise it voluntarily. No amount of technology will ever fix that unless and until human beings are no longer permitted free will on pretense that it's "too dangerous".

Then we are in the scenario of Clockwork Orange, where human freedom itself is considered too dangerous to permit. Seeking a perfect world free of auto accidents is an act of folly.- so naturally it has strong advocates at all levels of government and industry because new products can be created and revenue generated. 
« Last Edit: April 24, 2017, 04:06:12 pm by LateForLunch »
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Offline Cripplecreek

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Re: Rear-view cameras on vehicles required by 2018
« Reply #74 on: April 24, 2017, 03:55:34 pm »
Uh, no it won't make people that much safer. The problem is that they only work in optimal weather conditions. In severe cold condensation and ice appear on the lens and when it rains, water droplets destroy visibility. Are they also going to require tiny wipers or heating elements to deal with that? Of course not. So the net result is that people will grow too used to having them and then when they don't they will be far more unsafe than if they had always used conventional means to observe behind them.

The government will never learn that there is no way to legislate responsibility to those who will not exercise it voluntarily.

The people saying that you can't see out of the rear of modern cars aren't really helping their case, they're describing a design flaw that automakers should correct.