Here we go: Trump now ready to work with Democrats on health-care fix

[r9etb]

   I respectfully disagree with your conception of reality here @r9etb , you are saying the FC needs to abandon or soften on their 'principles' in order to accomplish anything in the House and I think that is what got is in this mess, to begin with - people throwing their morals and principles out the window to the breeze.

I'm not saying that they need to soften their principles.  On the other hand, if they simply stand on their soap-boxes and demand to be given their way and only their way ... what do you suppose they'll actually achieve?  Nothing, that's what.  They'll become a joke, and deservedly so.

The hard reality -- which some on this thread simply refuse to acknowledge -- is that the FC are a small bloc of politicians who are part of a system that's made up of other people, most of whom, even within their own party, do not agree with everything they stand for. 

The FC is highly unlikely to get everything it wants.  The best it can do, is work to make incremental changes that move things in the direction of their principles.  It requires deals, and persuasion, and most importantly, it requires them to enter fully into the political fray.  They can't rely on others to do their work for them.

[INVAR]

[kevindavis007]

Wrong. 

The Founders did not compromise by surrendering the liberty they knew the Crown intended to subjugate with tyranny.  They went to war to secure liberty, not appease tyrants and compromise.  Especially when it was clear that olive branch petitions only emboldened the Crown to impose greater measures of despotism.

And what we are talking about is tyranny.  ObamaCare and government control of health care is tyranny having been imposed on us via corrupt and unlawful means.  We give into that, then we have traded essential liberty for tyranny and made what was done to impose tyranny - a legal precedent.

Now if you want to compromise your liberty with tyranny, and call it freedom and democracy, be our guest.

We reject the premise.

Wrong:


http://classroom.synonym.com/list-describe-three-famous-compromises-constitutional-convention-17742.html

[Bigun]

Wrong:


http://classroom.synonym.com/list-describe-three-famous-compromises-constitutional-convention-17742.html

Kevin my friend you DO know don't you that the U.S.A. existed prior to the Constitution and that what you call the Constitutional convention was in fact a rump convention that went FAR beyond the bounds of it's charter?

[r9etb]

Kevin my friend you DO know don't you that the U.S.A. existed prior to the Constitution and that what you call the Constitutional convention was in fact a rump convention that went FAR beyond the bounds of it's charter?

Oh, FFS.... don't tell me you're gonna go all anti-Federalist on us now.

[Jazzhead]

ObamaCare and government control of health care is tyranny having been imposed on us via corrupt and unlawful means. 

Whatever you may think of the merits of ObamaCare, it is a product of the Constitutional process for the enactment of laws by our democratically-elected representatives.   

Your railing against "tyranny" is really just railing against your fellow citizens who view the obligations of government differently than you do.   You demand a special dispensation to exist outside the community.  I say stop whining.   
   

[INVAR]

I'm not saying that they need to soften their principles.  On the other hand, if they simply stand on their soap-boxes and demand to be given their way and only their way ... what do you suppose they'll actually achieve?  Nothing, that's what.  They'll become a joke, and deservedly so.

The hard reality -- which some on this thread simply refuse to acknowledge -- is that the FC are a small bloc of politicians who are part of a system that's made up of other people, most of whom, even within their own party, do not agree with everything they stand for. 

The FC is highly unlikely to get everything it wants.  The best it can do, is work to make incremental changes that move things in the direction of their principles.  It requires deals, and persuasion, and most importantly, it requires them to enter fully into the political fray.  They can't rely on others to do their work for them.

Your entire argument is based on the premise that the FC must compromise with Statists for the vain hope of an incremental rollback of tyranny, instead of demanding that Statists compromise with them and the tenets of liberty.

Sure fire method of making yourselves slaves to tyrants.

[INVAR]

Whatever you may think of the merits of ObamaCare, it is a product of the Constitutional process for the enactment of laws by our democratically-elected representatives.   

No.  That's a bold-faced lie.  Passed in the middle of the night without a single representative having read the bill and made "legal" by a supreme court judge who rewrote the legislation for them.

It's tyranny, plain and simple, I do not care how you wish to dress it up.  It's tyranny and I will continue to call it that.  Ad nauseum, because that is what it is.

Your railing against tyranny is really just railing against your fellow citizens who view the obligations of government differently than you do. 
 

Exactly.  Sic Semper Tyrannis

And their supporters.

[r9etb]

Your entire argument is based on the premise that the FC must compromise with Statists for the vain hope of an incremental rollback of tyranny, instead of demanding that Statists compromise with them and the tenets of liberty.

Sure fire method of making yourselves slaves to tyrants.

 

So what's your suggestion?  How do you recommend that the FC, or people like them, become politically effective?

[INVAR]

So what's your suggestion?  How do you recommend that the FC, or people like them, become politically effective?

They should stand fast, even if they lose.   The principles they claim they stand for are worth suffering and dying for.

If everyone else wants Communism and tyranny - they shall have it.  Nothing the FC is going to be able to do to stop it.  But there is no reason that those who claim Liberty and Conservative principles should compromise with tyrants to advance liberty, because all that does is leaven their principles in Statism and makes tyranny permanent.

Stand for what is right, even if you stand alone.

Laugh at that if you think it foolish. But there is a Greater Judge than a mob of people who have made government their god.

[Jazzhead]

Laugh at that if you think it foolish. But there is a Greater Judge than a mob of people who have made government their god.

Martyrdom is idiotic.  But it suits you just fine.   

[r9etb]

They should stand fast, even if they lose.   The principles they claim they stand for are worth suffering and dying for.

If everyone else wants Communism and tyranny - they shall have it.  Nothing the FC is going to be able to do to stop it.  But there is no reason that those who claim Liberty and Conservative principles should compromise with tyrants to advance liberty, because all that does is leaven their principles in Statism and makes tyranny permanent.

Stand for what is right, even if you stand alone.

Laugh at that if you think it foolish. But there is a Greater Judge than a mob of people who have made government their god.

 

[INVAR]

Martyrdom is idiotic.  But it suits you just fine.

I can hear you telling the Adams', Jefferson, Franklin, Washington and the rest of the Continental Congress that very same thing were this 1776.

You are always a perfect example of the wisdom of men.

[r9etb]

You are always a perfect example of the wisdom of men.

Honest question: if you're such an all-or-nothing, win-or-die sort, and reality says you won't win, why do you even keep posting?

[INVAR]

Honest question: if you're such an all-or-nothing, win-or-die sort, and reality says you won't win, why do you even keep posting?

We win in the end.

But, for the current age, what I post Serves as a witness.

No one is going to have any excuse to deny the fact that the truth was present and rejected.

[Jazzhead]

We win in the end.

But, for the current age, what I post Serves as a witness.

No one is going to have any excuse to deny the fact that the truth was present and rejected.

Except that you come across as a self-righteous nutcase.  That gives folks an easy excuse to reject the "truth" you've "presented".   

[Cyber Liberty]

I can hear you telling the Adams', Jefferson, Franklin, Washington and the rest of the Continental Congress that very same thing were this 1776.

Wouldn't that be the working description of the word, "Tory?"

[roamer_1]

One possibility is the move of some doctors toward offering "concierge medicine," where they don't accept insurance.  For routine medical care you either pay as you go, or you can buy a yearly "subscription."  The rationale is twofold: first, it gives the doctors a lot more leeway in how they practice medicine, and second, it significantly reduces their operating overhead.  I've known a few doctors who have gone this route, and apparently they like it. 

I don't know how well it would work as a general system, and it doesn't cover things like hospitalization and catastrophic care.  But in conjunction with true insurance (as opposed to the overarching cost-sharing system we have now) it is a possible approach.

Close. I'll do you one better. Allow nurses more latitude and independence.
90% of health care can just as easily be handled by a nurse - You don't need a doctor to splint your finger, stitch you up, or treat common sicknesses - All easily within a nurse's training and capability.

A nurse in a minivan doing house calls can be excellent medical service - more than adequate... And it would be a pittance by comparison, the nurse would make more money, and the patients would not be getting sick from each other getting jammed together in waiting rooms.

The regulations, many of which are well-intentioned, are in the way. They keep the costs extremely high'
I won't go to the doc to get stitched up. That'd be well over a couple hundred dollars.
But the Cheyenne will do it for a bottle of jack, and probably do a better job - He was battlefield trained, and doesn't miss a stitch. My DIL is a very competent nurse, and could easily di it for free. But don't let the nanny state catch you, or they'd be in biiiig trouble for practicing medicine.

[roamer_1]

I don't want to wait for a half century to get rid of it, so unless those straight repeal votes appear somehow in both the House and Senate (and I don't think they will), I'll take getting rid of as much of it as we can now, even if that means leaving some of it in place.

Leave any of it in place and it will just come back.

[r9etb]

Close. I'll do you one better. Allow nurses more latitude and independence.
90% of health care can just as easily be handled by a nurse - You don't need a doctor to splint your finger, stitch you up, or treat common sicknesses - All easily within a nurse's training and capability.

A nurse in a minivan doing house calls can be excellent medical service - more than adequate... And it would be a pittance by comparison, the nurse would make more money, and the patients would not be getting sick from each other getting jammed together in waiting rooms.

The regulations, many of which are well-intentioned, are in the way. They keep the costs extremely high'
I won't go to the doc to get stitched up. That'd be well over a couple hundred dollars.
But the Cheyenne will do it for a bottle of jack, and probably do a better job - He was battlefield trained, and doesn't miss a stitch. My DIL is a very competent nurse, and could easily di it for free. But don't let the nanny state catch you, or they'd be in biiiig trouble for practicing medicine.

Reasonable and workable suggestions: nurse practitioners already do a lot of that sort of thing at my Dr's office.

As for letting the Cheyenne do it.... Sheriff Longmire, is that you?

[roamer_1]

So what's your suggestion?  How do you recommend that the FC, or people like them, become politically effective?

THEY JUST WERE.

[INVAR]

Except that you come across as a self-righteous nutcase.  That gives folks an easy excuse to reject the "truth" you've "presented".

I do not care how I come across to people like you who are pushing an agenda anathema to everything I believe in.

I'm not interested in being applauded by men, or people like you.

I state the truth, and I refuse to massage it to make it easier to swallow by snowflakes who hate the truth for their own versions of it anyway.

[INVAR]

Close. I'll do you one better. Allow nurses more latitude and independence.
90% of health care can just as easily be handled by a nurse - You don't need a doctor to splint your finger, stitch you up, or treat common sicknesses - All easily within a nurse's training and capability.

A nurse in a minivan doing house calls can be excellent medical service - more than adequate... And it would be a pittance by comparison, the nurse would make more money, and the patients would not be getting sick from each other getting jammed together in waiting rooms.

My wife concurs.  She is an RN with a whole lot of letters after her name.

[Bigun]

Close. I'll do you one better. Allow nurses more latitude and independence.
90% of health care can just as easily be handled by a nurse - You don't need a doctor to splint your finger, stitch you up, or treat common sicknesses - All easily within a nurse's training and capability.

A nurse in a minivan doing house calls can be excellent medical service - more than adequate... And it would be a pittance by comparison, the nurse would make more money, and the patients would not be getting sick from each other getting jammed together in waiting rooms.

The regulations, many of which are well-intentioned, are in the way. They keep the costs extremely high'
I won't go to the doc to get stitched up. That'd be well over a couple hundred dollars.
But the Cheyenne will do it for a bottle of jack, and probably do a better job - He was battlefield trained, and doesn't miss a stitch. My DIL is a very competent nurse, and could easily di it for free. But don't let the nanny state catch you, or they'd be in biiiig trouble for practicing medicine.

My wife and daughter are both life long healthcare professionals and agree with that 100%. We have discussed it many times in fact!  The ONLY thing standing in the way are lawyers and the courts!

[roamer_1]

Reasonable and workable suggestions: nurse practitioners already do a lot of that sort of thing at my Dr's office.

As was yours - but the point in either case lays the fault at regulation for the high cost of health care - Without the high cost, insurance is not necessary, and without the need for high cost insurance to cover the high cost of doctors, Uncle Nanny doesn;t need to take over 1/7th of the national economy (which can inevitably only drive the cost still higher, or lower the quality... take your pick)

This is a perfect example of the value of deregulation and free market solutions, well within Conservative principles. And it will work. Obama care, currently becoming TrumpCare, will not.

As for letting the Cheyenne do it.... Sheriff Longmire, is that you?

Heh. Different Cheyenne. my real general prac is a Cheyenne medic from Nam, well versed in taking things out and putting things back on... And is equally informed in native meds, essential oils, tinctures and teas, which I find to be infinitely more useful than western medicines. His now ex wife is a midwife, and handles female problems and such. A very good team, who keep the hillbillies well... The hillbilies, who don't qualify for big gubmint insurance, don't have insurance, and can't afford doctors, and wouldn't go to them if they could.

Which brings another point: Why should I have to pay for a healthcare system that I would be loathe to use? I get far better results from native med, chiropractors, and Vietnamese acupuncturists - ALL of which are not covered by TrumpyCare.