Author Topic: Why didn’t the GOP try to pass last year’s vetoed health-care bill?  (Read 5787 times)

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Offline r9etb

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Re: Why didn’t the GOP try to pass last year’s vetoed health-care bill?
« Reply #25 on: March 26, 2017, 02:13:28 am »
Once they repeal, then maybe everyone can work together to replace, IF NEEDED.

I was talking to a lady today whose mother would lose her coverage if that were to happen.

What would you say to her ... and more importantly, how would the Republicans survive in Congress actually doing such a thing?

Offline anubias

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Re: Why didn’t the GOP try to pass last year’s vetoed health-care bill?
« Reply #26 on: March 26, 2017, 02:21:47 am »
I was talking to a lady today whose mother would lose her coverage if that were to happen.

What would you say to her ... and more importantly, how would the Republicans survive in Congress actually doing such a thing?

I'd ask her why she thinks i should have to pay for her Mother's insurance when I don't have insurance myself.

Offline DB

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Re: Why didn’t the GOP try to pass last year’s vetoed health-care bill?
« Reply #27 on: March 26, 2017, 02:22:32 am »
I was talking to a lady today whose mother would lose her coverage if that were to happen.

What would you say to her ... and more importantly, how would the Republicans survive in Congress actually doing such a thing?

So once on medical welfare there's no going back? That could be the political reality of it, but if that's the case why claim you're going to repeal it in the first place? Even worse, if you tweak it you get ownership of it. So as we sink in the quicksand of socialism there's no pulling out, only slowing the sinking... How comforting...

Offline r9etb

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Re: Why didn’t the GOP try to pass last year’s vetoed health-care bill?
« Reply #28 on: March 26, 2017, 02:29:46 am »
So once on medical welfare there's no going back? That could be the political reality of it, but if that's the case why claim you're going to repeal it in the first place? Even worse, if you tweak it you get ownership of it. So as we sink in the quicksand of socialism there's no pulling out, only slowing the sinking... How comforting...

I'm just asking the question, because if they were to force through a repeal -- a ridiculous fantasy, as we now see -- it's the question the Republicans would have to answer in a way that didn't lead to political disaster. 

What would you tell this lady about her mother?

Online Smokin Joe

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Re: Why didn’t the GOP try to pass last year’s vetoed health-care bill?
« Reply #29 on: March 26, 2017, 02:40:42 am »
We're talking about who spent the $20 trillion, who received it and who is stuck with the bill.

Obama was also at the tail end of the baby boomer generation. Millennials likely helped him get elected but they are an unreliable voting block and often can't be bothered.
Obama showed up at the end of concerts while on the campaign trail. That made him trendy, and he had a ready-made young crowd. In 2008, 66% of the 18-29 age group voted Obama, and 52% of those 30-44 voted for him. THose age groups accounted for 47% of the vote https://ropercenter.cornell.edu/polls/us-elections/how-groups-voted/how-groups-voted-2008/

Even in 2012, 60% of those 18-29 voted for Obama, and 52% of those 30-44, the two groups together comprise 46% of voters that year. https://ropercenter.cornell.edu/polls/us-elections/how-groups-voted/how-groups-voted-2012/
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Online Smokin Joe

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Re: Why didn’t the GOP try to pass last year’s vetoed health-care bill?
« Reply #30 on: March 26, 2017, 02:42:52 am »
I'm just asking the question, because if they were to force through a repeal -- a ridiculous fantasy, as we now see -- it's the question the Republicans would have to answer in a way that didn't lead to political disaster. 

What would you tell this lady about her mother?
"That's too bad. What other options has she explored? "
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline LMAO

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Re: Why didn’t the GOP try to pass last year’s vetoed health-care bill?
« Reply #31 on: March 26, 2017, 03:16:43 am »
I'd ask her why she thinks i should have to pay for her Mother's insurance when I don't have insurance myself.

The growing welfare state creates resentment among citizens.  They resent the fact that somebody makes more than them and has more than them. You resent them because you have to go to work and pay more taxes for them.  You and I can say this to somebody. A politician running for office doesn't have that luxury

 My prediction? Obama care and all its problems are here to stay and will be fully funded. Once you get a good number of people hooked on the idea of getting a government check, it doesn't go away easily until  math and economic factors eventually forces it. Somebody who is getting the government check does not worry about our national debt or what effect it has on our currency or economy
« Last Edit: March 26, 2017, 03:18:10 am by LMAO »
I have little interest in streamlining government or in making it more efficient, for I mean to reduce its size. I do not undertake to promote welfare, for I propose to extend freedom. My aim is not to pass laws, but to repeal them.

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Online Smokin Joe

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Re: Why didn’t the GOP try to pass last year’s vetoed health-care bill?
« Reply #32 on: March 26, 2017, 04:28:16 am »

 Once you get a good number of people hooked on the idea of getting a government check, it doesn't go away easily until  math and economic factors eventually forces it. Somebody who is getting the government check does not worry about our national debt or what effect it has on our currency or economy
Even calves get weaned. The sooner the people do, the better.

Simply enough, the vision of running a small business used to promote scams by hucksters is that you just sit by the pool or play all day. After all, you're your own boss, now.
The reality is that you end up putting in far more hours than someone working for wages--you live and breathe that business to give it life and to keep it going.
The gibsmedats have a different notion, though, one that puts the guy trying to make ends meet for his little shop right up there with the jet-set 1%. Unless and until they have to scratch for their living, they won't have any appreciation for those who do, and the transition from suckling to standing on their own won't be made quietly.
After all, they've been told for generations they "deserve" this, which is how Welfare, SNAP, AFDC, WIC, etc. came to be called "entitlements". Small wonder so many of their children will loot or steal at the drop of a hat--they have absolutely no empathy for the people who depend on that business for their livelihood and who have all they own riding on it.
It is time to end the subsidies for layabouts. I think it will be amazing how many will find a (legal, even) way to make money when the teat runs dry.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2017, 04:35:12 am by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline DB

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Re: Why didn’t the GOP try to pass last year’s vetoed health-care bill?
« Reply #33 on: March 26, 2017, 04:29:38 am »
I'm just asking the question, because if they were to force through a repeal -- a ridiculous fantasy, as we now see -- it's the question the Republicans would have to answer in a way that didn't lead to political disaster. 

What would you tell this lady about her mother?

I would tell her that we are withdrawing subsidies and taxes and instead will be lowering the cost of getting access to health care by opening up the markets, restraining the lawyers and reducing government regulation to what is minimally required.

Endless regulation kills innovation because that innovation doesn't fit into what the people who wrote the regulations envisioned and what they envisioned should not be the driving force.

And if this was thought out by people really connected to the industry, they would know much better where the problems are and how to streamline it. We also have to tame the expectation that you are entitled to the best possible people/procedures if you don't have the resources to cover the costs. That you'll have to settle for something less.

Offline montanajoe

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Re: Why didn’t the GOP try to pass last year’s vetoed health-care bill?
« Reply #34 on: March 26, 2017, 05:44:53 am »
I have to have some disagreement on the baby boomer issue. I'm on the tail end of the baby boomer generation, 1961, and it is the baby boomer generation that brought us around $20 trillion of debt that they are not going to pay for but got nearly all the benefit of. And that is just the federal level. They voted for the politicians that gave them what they wanted.


Yep  The baby boom generation of which I am one has been a spectacular failure. We are, as a group, a bunch of spoiled fiscally irresponsible whiners who have done possibly irreparable damage to the American political system since our coming of age during the Vietnam era. Additionally  and more importantly, as a group, we have been lousy parents leaving a generation of fools even worse than we are....   :shrug:

Offline truth_seeker

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Re: Why didn’t the GOP try to pass last year’s vetoed health-care bill?
« Reply #35 on: March 26, 2017, 06:34:44 am »
I'm just asking the question, because if they were to force through a repeal -- a ridiculous fantasy, as we now see -- it's the question the Republicans would have to answer in a way that didn't lead to political disaster. 

What would you tell this lady about her mother?

Maybe the daughter should buy her a policy.
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Offline ConstitutionRose

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Re: Why didn’t the GOP try to pass last year’s vetoed health-care bill?
« Reply #36 on: March 26, 2017, 12:15:25 pm »
I was talking to a lady today whose mother would lose her coverage if that were to happen.



Here is what you tell her.  We started our own business because both our employers closed their doors within months of each other.  We had medical insurance through a small business association.  That insurance went away because of Obamacare.  During the time we were covered by that insurance my husband was diagnosed with an illness that requires very expensive medication.  There has never been an insurance plan under Obamacare that covers his medications, or for that matter most of his doctors.  Ironically, we qualified for a waver from Obamacare because our existing medical bills are so high.

Truthfully once the total of the two most expensive medications reached a number higher than the total of all our other living expenses, he quit taking them.  I am watching him fade away a little bit every day.

 

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Offline LMAO

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Re: Why didn’t the GOP try to pass last year’s vetoed health-care bill?
« Reply #37 on: March 26, 2017, 12:26:02 pm »
Even calves get weaned. The sooner the people do, the better.

Simply enough, the vision of running a small business used to promote scams by hucksters is that you just sit by the pool or play all day. After all, you're your own boss, now.
The reality is that you end up putting in far more hours than someone working for wages--you live and breathe that business to give it life and to keep it going.
The gibsmedats have a different notion, though, one that puts the guy trying to make ends meet for his little shop right up there with the jet-set 1%. Unless and until they have to scratch for their living, they won't have any appreciation for those who do, and the transition from suckling to standing on their own won't be made quietly.
After all, they've been told for generations they "deserve" this, which is how Welfare, SNAP, AFDC, WIC, etc. came to be called "entitlements". Small wonder so many of their children will loot or steal at the drop of a hat--they have absolutely no empathy for the people who depend on that business for their livelihood and who have all they own riding on it.
It is time to end the subsidies for layabouts. I think it will be amazing how many will find a (legal, even) way to make money when the teat runs dry.

And who running for office or currently in office is going to be the brave one to wean them?  Face it everybody,  barring a major economic or fiscal event , the  welfare state is not only here to stay but going to grow.  Even the so-called republican president has many time praised universal healthcare
I have little interest in streamlining government or in making it more efficient, for I mean to reduce its size. I do not undertake to promote welfare, for I propose to extend freedom. My aim is not to pass laws, but to repeal them.

Barry Goldwater

http://www.usdebtclock.org

My Avatar is my adult autistic son Tommy

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: Why didn’t the GOP try to pass last year’s vetoed health-care bill?
« Reply #38 on: March 26, 2017, 01:33:10 pm »
If you try to get rid of all that welfare-state stuff at once, voters will never go for it.  We can argue forever that they're wrong, that it's not sustainable, etc., but it doesn't matter if we can't convince them of that truth.  We've been trying for 40+ years, and it hasn't worked.

But we got here through relentless incrementalism from the left.  They got people to swallow socialism one bite at a time, and realistically, that's the only way it is ever going to get reversed.  We got welfare reform in the early 90's not by insisting on nothing less than complete elimination, but by reducing some benefits, making receipt of benefits contingent on working, or limited time periods, etc..

And realistically, that was the only way to get rid of ObamaCare.  We can't eliminate the Medicaid subsidy completely, but making it a block grant and reducing it over time would have been a move in a positive direction.  The votes were not there for completely repeal, so Ryan wanted to roll it back one step at a time because that was the only way it was going to happen.  Conservatives opposed it because it wasn't "enough", and the end result is likely going to be movement in the opposite direction.

We can all go to our graves smugly congratulating ourselves that we were "right" as the country goes down the tubes.  But that doesn't help us or our children outside of some Randian fantasy world.  If we want to actually win rather than virtue-signal, we have to get smarter tactically.

Offline bilo

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Re: Why didn’t the GOP try to pass last year’s vetoed health-care bill?
« Reply #39 on: March 26, 2017, 01:33:56 pm »
And who running for office or currently in office is going to be the brave one to wean them?  Face it everybody,  barring a major economic or fiscal event , the  welfare state is not only here to stay but going to grow.  Even the so-called republican president has many time praised universal healthcare

It didn't take long for Pres. Trump, with his tweets this morning, to start placing blame with the conservatives. Now we're going to see the shift to the left. The Pub establishment can't wait to throw the Tea Party over board. I'm sure they are all convinced that the "moderate" Rats will support them in future elections.

Tom Delay made an interesting comment on Fox yesterday. He said if you want a bill to get passed you start out on the right and move towards the center until you've got 216 votes. Ryan started out in the middle-left (govt still in control, no national purchasing, medicaid expansion growing) and then tried to move right to get to 216. I think it's plain to see that this is how the legislative process is going to work. Trump will fail with the big ticket items he ran on that require legislation.

I wonder if Trump's supporters will come out for him in 2020 when immigration policy suffers the same fate as repealing obamacare did.

I think Pres. Trump intends to try and keep his promises, but is inept dealing with the legislative process and party leaders. At least we can hope that regulations get cut and good judges get nominated. 
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Offline bilo

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Re: Why didn’t the GOP try to pass last year’s vetoed health-care bill?
« Reply #40 on: March 26, 2017, 01:41:59 pm »
If you try to get rid of all that welfare-state stuff at once, voters will never go for it.  We can argue forever that they're wrong, that it's not sustainable, etc., but it doesn't matter if we can't convince them of that truth.  We've been trying for 40+ years, and it hasn't worked.

But we got here through relentless incrementalism from the left.  They got people to swallow socialism one bite at a time, and realistically, that's the only way it is ever going to get reversed.  We got welfare reform in the early 90's not by insisting on nothing less than complete elimination, but by reducing some benefits, making receipt of benefits contingent on working, or limited time periods, etc..

And realistically, that was the only way to get rid of ObamaCare.  We can't eliminate the Medicaid subsidy completely, but making it a block grant and reducing it over time would have been a move in a positive direction.  The votes were not there for completely repeal, so Ryan wanted to roll it back one step at a time because that was the only way it was going to happen.  Conservatives opposed it because it wasn't "enough", and the end result is likely going to be movement in the opposite direction.

We can all go to our graves smugly congratulating ourselves that we were "right" as the country goes down the tubes.  But that doesn't help us or our children outside of some Randian fantasy world.  If we want to actually win rather than virtue-signal, we have to get smarter tactically.

And almost all of those reforms have been rolled back. All it took was another Rat POTUS, obama. This is why it was so important to fully repeal obamacare and not leave the structure in place. The fear was the next Rat POTUS would reinstall obamacare and add to it. The problem wasn't not compromising on replacement details. The problem was not repealing obamacare, especially after having passed full repeal last year.

Now we are seeing the move to the left by Pres. Trump instead of stepping in and demanding a move to the right by the Pub establishment. The big govt solutions are not the answer they are the problem.
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Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: Why didn’t the GOP try to pass last year’s vetoed health-care bill?
« Reply #41 on: March 26, 2017, 01:53:52 pm »
And almost all of those reforms have been rolled back. All it took was another Rat POTUS, obama.

That possibility is going to exist no matter what.  But some of those particular reforms are still in place, and we're still better off than we would have been if those reforms had never happened.  Obama would have been adding to the pre-reform welfare system rather than fighting to get back there.

Quote
This is why it was so important to fully repeal obamacare and not leave the structure in place. The fear was the next Rat POTUS would reinstall obamacare and add to it. The problem wasn't not compromising on replacement details. The problem was not repealing obamacare, especially after having passed full repeal last year.

But there aren't the votes for full repeal.  I'm not sure why that reality isn't...sinking in for some folks.  The votes were there for prior symbolic votes because the moderates were saying "I'll vote yes for now, but we'll have to replace some stuff".  Take away their ability to preserve some things, and you lose their votes.  That may be an unpleasant reality that some don't want to admit, but it's a reality all the same.

Hey, if you don't believe me and think that the votes for full repeal really do exist in Congress, then why doesn't that alleged "silent majority" just pass that vote right now, and dare Trump to veto it?  Seems easy enough -- if full repeal truly has majority congressional support, then neither Ryan nor anyone else could stop them from passing the bill now.

So the real question is -- if we don't have the votes for a full repeal, what do we do?  It seems the answer for some is to do nothing, and revel in our own righteousness.  That may make us feel good, but it doesn't actually accomplish anything other than setting up the Dems to run the table on us, and implement something worse than Obamacare as a means of "fixing" it.

Offline bilo

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Re: Why didn’t the GOP try to pass last year’s vetoed health-care bill?
« Reply #42 on: March 26, 2017, 02:15:14 pm »
The same bill that was passed in 2015 that fully repeals obamacare is sitting in committee right now. Rep. Jordan presented it March 8th. All it requires to go to the floor for a vote is for a majority to sign off on it.

If the Pubs won't vote for a bill they voted for in 2015 then they aren't worth supporting in the future.
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Offline The_Reader_David

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Re: Why didn’t the GOP try to pass last year’s vetoed health-care bill?
« Reply #43 on: March 26, 2017, 02:23:36 pm »
With the number of grandparents raising grand children, how is keeping insurance on them until they are 26 'sound'? Do the math on that. You want 70 year-olds buying the health insurance for 25 year-olds? For all the bitching and grumbling, an honest assessment of baby boomers will be 'the generation that paid for everyone else'.

First, letting the child stay in the parent's insurance doesn't mean the parent has to pay for it, that's between the parent and the child -- the parent *can* say, "I'll keep you on my health insurance, but you have to pay the marginal cost" -- that's between the parent and the children.  It's acutarially sound because it keeps a lot of healthy young people, and their premiums, in an insurance pool. 
And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know what this was all about.

Online Smokin Joe

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Re: Why didn’t the GOP try to pass last year’s vetoed health-care bill?
« Reply #44 on: March 26, 2017, 06:50:44 pm »
If you try to get rid of all that welfare-state stuff at once, voters will never go for it.  We can argue forever that they're wrong, that it's not sustainable, etc., but it doesn't matter if we can't convince them of that truth.  We've been trying for 40+ years, and it hasn't worked.
Maybe if we just try harder, we'll have complete totalitarianism by nightfall.
Obamacare is just one more brick in the wall, one more piece of the socialist welfare state. Removing it IS incremental, especially when you look at a big picture which has the Federal Government regulating everything from filling in mudholes in your yard to the bulbs in your light socket to how much water your toilet flushes and whether you can use your fireplace to keep warm, not to mention direct control of over half the land west of the Mississippi. Removing Obamacare IS incrementalism when compared to the leviathan that is Socialism in our government, and they could not stand by their promises in Congress long enough to rid us of that one fragment.

Damn them for the pack of liars and thieves they are.
Quote
But we got here through relentless incrementalism from the left. 
and the ACA was just one of those increments.
Quote
They got people to swallow socialism one bite at a time, and realistically, that's the only way it is ever going to get reversed.
So reverse it already. The economy-choking bite that was shoved down America's throat can be repealed in one increment except for one thing. The Republican Party is crawling with, lousy with cryptosocialists who are just as willing to buy votes with our Liberty and treasure as the damned Democrats.
Quote
And realistically, that was the only way to get rid of ObamaCare. 
If our strategery is to remove every monolith the Democrat/Socialists set in the road one small crumb at a time, the battle is lost.
The inevitable result is that totalitarian government the Democrats (and, apparently some wearing the 'R') crave.
It is indeed a question of principle, and if those principles cannot be restored (which they will not with such methods), the Republic might crawl along to its demise, but crawl it will like a wounded animal, under the ever increasing burden of socialism until it collapses.
Quote
We can't eliminate the Medicaid subsidy completely, but making it a block grant and reducing it over time would have been a move in a positive direction.  The votes were not there for completely repeal, so Ryan wanted to roll it back one step at a time because that was the only way it was going to happen.  Conservatives opposed it because it wasn't "enough", and the end result is likely going to be movement in the opposite direction.

We can all go to our graves smugly congratulating ourselves that we were "right" as the country goes down the tubes.  But that doesn't help us or our children outside of some Randian fantasy world.  If we want to actually win rather than virtue-signal, we have to get smarter tactically.
There comes a time when we must grab the bull by the tail and face the situation.
The reality is that Washington D.C. has become Kabuki central, with a lot of posturing by the GOPe when it is known such theater will have no effect, but come the call for question those spineless bastards will back down at the drop of a hat. When it is time to play for 'keeps' they can not be counted on, except to throw the aces and draw new cards. There are a principled few who now are getting the blame for this failure because they are in the minority, but the majority of Republicans there are the problem, not the solution, because their resolve is not to remove the socialist acts of the Democrats but to retain them. Further evidence of this is the abandonment of the issue, rather than moving to the right to pick up votes.
The Democrats had no problem imposing this disaster in one fell swoop, the Republicans should have no problem removing it. Never has the term RINO been so relevant.
Doubtless, in the runup to the 2018 election, enough of them will claim they were for full repeal that, if counted, the vote should have been overwhelming. All that snake Ryan did was ensure they could make that claim by pulling the bill without a vote, and the posturing will continue, yet another term.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline SirLinksALot

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Re: Why didn’t the GOP try to pass last year’s vetoed health-care bill?
« Reply #45 on: March 26, 2017, 06:55:00 pm »
An EXCELLENT question and the answer is that they had no wish to actually repeal it then or now!

OK here's a question to all -- Let's say they passed the repeal bill they sent to Obama (which he vetoed), what happens to the millions of those who are already enrolled under Obamacare?

It's very easy to accuse someone of bad intentions.... the practical reality they have to face is another thing.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2017, 07:03:25 pm by SirLinksALot »

Offline FreeReign

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Re: Why didn’t the GOP try to pass last year’s vetoed health-care bill?
« Reply #46 on: March 26, 2017, 06:55:04 pm »
Because leadership, both Ryan and Trump don't want such a vote. I wonder what they are afraid of?

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Why didn’t the GOP try to pass last year’s vetoed health-care bill?
« Reply #47 on: March 26, 2017, 06:57:09 pm »
If we want to actually win rather than virtue-signal, we have to get smarter tactically.

You certainly seem to like that derogatory and very liberal phrase.

Offline SirLinksALot

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Re: Why didn’t the GOP try to pass last year’s vetoed health-care bill?
« Reply #48 on: March 26, 2017, 06:57:23 pm »
Because leadership, both Ryan and Trump don't want such a vote. I wonder what they are afraid of?

It's a simple thing to REPEAL Obamacare, it's another thing to consider the MILLIONS whose lives will then be upended because for the past 7 years, they have enrolled are come to expect government subsidies under Obamacare.

I hope that answers the question --- what are they afraid of?


Offline FreeReign

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Re: Why didn’t the GOP try to pass last year’s vetoed health-care bill?
« Reply #49 on: March 26, 2017, 06:59:30 pm »
Because they don't have the votes.

I'm not saying I disagree with you, just commenting on the political reality
They had the votes in February 2015. What makes you think they don't have the votes now?