Author Topic: Carlsbad to photograph every car entering city  (Read 312 times)

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Offline EC

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Carlsbad to photograph every car entering city
« on: March 20, 2017, 04:41:49 AM »
Carlsbad is expanding its use of automated license plate readers into a system that aims to collect the registration information of every vehicle that enters the city. The $1 million Police Department project — which will add stationary cameras at 14 key Carlsbad intersections,  creating a virtual gateway at the city’s borders — was approved by the city council last week, sparking outrage over privacy rights and government control from several residents and one council member.four council members, however, said they’re confident the information can be kept secure and that the system will increase safety for residents and police officers. they also said it may deter criminals from breaking the law in the city.

More: http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/communities/north-county/sd-no-plate-readers-20170317-story.html

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Offline DB

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Re: Carlsbad to photograph every car entering city
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2017, 05:09:37 AM »
Big Brother is only getting started...

Offline mountaineer

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Re: Carlsbad to photograph every car entering city
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2017, 07:54:13 AM »
Of all the ways a city could spend $1 million ...  :shrug:
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Offline Hondo69

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Re: Carlsbad to photograph every car entering city
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2017, 09:38:47 AM »
Quote
...they’re confident the information can be kept secure...

Did they explain how they will become the first government entity in the history of the world to ever accomplish that feat?

Offline driftdiver

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Re: Carlsbad to photograph every car entering city
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2017, 09:46:21 AM »
A lot of places do this but they are more circumspect about it.     Here in the Tampa Bay area there are toll roads which have the automatic readers.  They read a transponder you have in your car.  So they already know the car and who its registered too.   At some locations there's an overhead light that flashes for every single car.  It has to be for a camera and the angle means it gets the front of your car.   In Florida we only have license plates on the back of our cars so this is a picture of the driver.

Offline LateForLunch

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Re: Carlsbad to photograph every car entering city
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2017, 01:42:44 PM »
And of course, they can sell the information if they want to, since it's public domain.

That's likely another reason they did it! Collection agencies already have deployed automatic license plate readers that collect and store data from public parking lots and garages around the nation - then sell the information to other companies or to private people who are trying to find people's vehicles (which they use to find the people driving them).

Hell, even robots that patrol parking structures can resell that information creating a revenue stream for the owners or lease-holder operators.

There is a feedback loop between government and private sector companies who monitor the public - sometimes private companies need and will pay government for the information and sometimes it's the other way around.

Oh, and the Constitutional issue has already been resolved - the courts have consistently found that so long as only general imaging is being gathered, nobody has a reasonable expectation of privacy in traversing highways or any private area open to the general public.

Anyone can take a picture of anyone or any vehicle they are driving in a public or semi-public place any time they like and use the information any way they like so long as it does not violate the law in some way.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2017, 01:52:56 PM by LateForLunch »
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Offline GrouchoTex

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Re: Carlsbad to photograph every car entering city
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2017, 01:49:31 PM »
A lot of places do this but they are more circumspect about it.     Here in the Tampa Bay area there are toll roads which have the automatic readers.  They read a transponder you have in your car.  So they already know the car and who its registered too.   At some locations there's an overhead light that flashes for every single car.  It has to be for a camera and the angle means it gets the front of your car.   In Florida we only have license plates on the back of our cars so this is a picture of the driver.

They photo all the cars coming into Sugar Land, TX, my hometown.

Offline thackney

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Re: Carlsbad to photograph every car entering city
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2017, 02:04:06 PM »
They photo all the cars coming into Sugar Land, TX, my hometown.

I had not heard that before.  Do you have a link for more info?
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Online NavyCanDo

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Re: Carlsbad to photograph every car entering city
« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2017, 02:11:00 PM »
Not sure how it will deter criminals from breaking the law.    Here in WA if you cross the Tacoma Narrows Bridge, the Hwy 520 floating bridge, or Hwy 405, you have had your car and license plate recorded.  For tolling purposes, but permanent recordings just the same.   I doubt very much bad guys avoid these.   Then you have the traffic light cameras which is a whole other story.

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Offline truth_seeker

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Re: Carlsbad to photograph every car entering city
« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2017, 02:17:58 PM »
Do we know the stated purpose for Carlsbad CA and Sugar Land TX, to collect such information?

*Carlsbad CA is a very, very nice community spanning miles along the ocean.

Offline LateForLunch

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Re: Carlsbad to photograph every car entering city
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2017, 04:15:55 PM »
Do we know the stated purpose for Carlsbad CA and Sugar Land TX, to collect such information?

*Carlsbad CA is a very, very nice community spanning miles along the ocean.

Does it really matter what they claim the reason is ? If they have ulterior motives or a hidden agenda nobody will find out about it until someone slips up (or slurps too loud at the money trough) or some concerned citizen gets a FOIA disclosure from the principles' public records - which does not include privileged communications between government parties outside chambers or personal communications (for those things, one needs a subpoena).

So it's often easier to review the law on what is permissible and just assume that they will do anything and everything with the data that they can in order to make money so long as it doesn't get them put in prison. 
« Last Edit: March 20, 2017, 04:17:21 PM by LateForLunch »
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Offline Fishrrman

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Re: Carlsbad to photograph every car entering city
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2017, 06:37:59 PM »
Lateforlunch wrote:
"Oh, and the Constitutional issue has already been resolved - the courts have consistently found that so long as only general imaging is being gathered, nobody has a reasonable expectation of privacy in traversing highways or any private area open to the general public."

Perhaps there is a need for some "Constitutional revision", such as this:
==========
Citizens protected by this Constitution possess an inalienable right to privacy in their persons, businesses, and homes, and while they are in public.

It shall be a violation of this Constitution for the United States or for the several States to violate or invade the individual privacy of citizens by use of physical, mechanical, or electronic means or by the use of devices on land, on water, below the ground, or from the air.

This protection shall extend to all lawful communications and acts by an individual citizen or between two or more citizens, including content that is spoken, written, or electronically transmitted. It shall extend to citizens regardless of their location, whether in private or in public.

The only exceptions will be as governed by the Fourth Amendment of this Constitution.
===========

Offline LateForLunch

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Re: Carlsbad to photograph every car entering city
« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2017, 10:55:39 AM »
Lateforlunch wrote:
"Oh, and the Constitutional issue has already been resolved - the courts have consistently found that so long as only general imaging is being gathered, nobody has a reasonable expectation of privacy in traversing highways or any private area open to the general public."

Perhaps there is a need for some "Constitutional revision", such as this:
==========
Citizens protected by this Constitution possess an inalienable right to privacy in their persons, businesses, and homes, and while they are in public.

It shall be a violation of this Constitution for the United States or for the several States to violate or invade the individual privacy of citizens by use of physical, mechanical, or electronic means or by the use of devices on land, on water, below the ground, or from the air.

This protection shall extend to all lawful communications and acts by an individual citizen or between two or more citizens, including content that is spoken, written, or electronically transmitted. It shall extend to citizens regardless of their location, whether in private or in public.

The only exceptions will be as governed by the Fourth Amendment of this Constitution.
===========


I hear ya'. Frequently the issue non-lawyers run into when addressing public policy or legislation is that we tend to try to structure the language of the objective sought either too broadly or too narrowly. Laws are viewed in both senses but not at the same time.

For example law prohibiting unreasonable search-and-seizure are interpreted narrowly to include possessions in a vehicle  - but then law enforcement considers "large amounts of cash" as "possible contraband". Therefore using the broad interpretation of commerce law,  they could then seize privately held cash when being transported because the reason for the possession of the cash was suspect and subject to prohibition of transporting contraband across state lines.

One narrow Constitutional provision entitles us to be free from search and seizure but in the above case, the broader interpretation of the greater common good contained in Commerce Law supersedes the right to freedom from search and seizure. The ruling turned on the term "reasonable". 

Law enforcement requires certain levity to search and seize things and to intrude on privacy for the "greater common good". The entire scope of that Constitutional entitlement forms the demarcation for any legislation or amendment to the Constitution.

If it's too broad or too narrow to be implemented without conflicting with some other stipulated feature of the Constitution, local, state or federal law, courts will strike it down.

'Can't permit absolute freedom from search or observation or your law enforcement forces become crippled and feckless. Go too far in the other direction and we have a police state where nobody has any privacy at all.

Because of the expansion of technology largely and increasingly laws are playing catch-up with capabilities. Too often, what is possible technologically far exceeds the scope of precedent law to define what is permissible or prohibited legally. 

So in regard to public observation of private persons and vehicles. We are on the upward slope of a parabola tracing technological advances and so we live in a time like no other - where almost literally every day, we are as individuals and as a culture confronted by circumstances in which legal boundaries are not well defined about what is or is not permitted.

Hopefully future generations will live with less daily uncertainty in their lives but our fortune is to be caught like bugs in amber in a time when uncertainty is the order of the day. We must learn to accept it or be driven mad, but we certainly don't have to like it.

« Last Edit: March 21, 2017, 11:34:02 AM by LateForLunch »
GOTWALMA Get out of the way and leave me alone! (Nods to General Teebone)

Offline GrouchoTex

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Offline GrouchoTex

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Re: Carlsbad to photograph every car entering city
« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2017, 01:58:24 PM »
Do we know the stated purpose for Carlsbad CA and Sugar Land TX, to collect such information?

*Carlsbad CA is a very, very nice community spanning miles along the ocean.

Qoute from an article on it, in Sugar Land

"City Council approved $1.6 million to install 27 License Plate Recognition cameras. They'll be mainly on the north side of town, around the busiest entry points to the city. Police say they hope this will keep the bad guys from even trying to mess with Sugar Land."

Offline truth_seeker

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Re: Carlsbad to photograph every car entering city
« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2017, 02:19:11 PM »
Qoute from an article on it, in Sugar Land

"City Council approved $1.6 million to install 27 License Plate Recognition cameras. They'll be mainly on the north side of town, around the busiest entry points to the city. Police say they hope this will keep the bad guys from even trying to mess with Sugar Land."
The first us of CCTV was 1942, Peenemunde Germany. A  common reason given for use of CCTV is "Crime Prevention."

Cities like Carlsbad and Sugar Land are affluent, and on main long distance highways. Cameras give them a chance to identify those who get off the highway, rob banks and get out of Dodge.


Offline geronl

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Re: Carlsbad to photograph every car entering city
« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2017, 03:53:24 PM »
Qoute from an article on it, in Sugar Land

"City Council approved $1.6 million to install 27 License Plate Recognition cameras. They'll be mainly on the north side of town, around the busiest entry points to the city. Police say they hope this will keep the bad guys from even trying to mess with Sugar Land."

so not every entryway into the city is covered

Offline thackney

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Offline Frank Cannon

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Re: Carlsbad to photograph every car entering city
« Reply #18 on: March 21, 2017, 06:00:38 PM »
They photo all the cars coming into Sugar Land, TX, my hometown.

Yeah, but they had some trouble there a while back so it's understandable.....

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Offline Frank Cannon

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Re: Carlsbad to photograph every car entering city
« Reply #19 on: March 21, 2017, 06:05:03 PM »

Cities like Carlsbad and Sugar Land are affluent, and on main long distance highways. Cameras give them a chance to identify those who get off the highway, rob banks and get out of Dodge.

They could also have visa/document check in booths and fingerprinting to protect these "affluent" hamlets and it would be 10 times more effective if you are serious about solving the issue.

Germans had it down to a science in the 70's and 80's.....

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