Colonizing Mars Might Require Humans to Radically Alter Their Bodies and Minds

[bigheadfred]

@Quix

Welllllllllllll, I do not anticipate doing that again the rest of my life.

Sorry, but that comment giggles me. Mostly because I so agree with you. I'm pretty sure the look of dumbfounded amazement never left my face the whole show thru. 

(I told it was something else)  ^-^

[Quix]

@Quix

Welllllllllllll, I do not anticipate doing that again the rest of my life.

Sorry, but that comment giggles me. Mostly because I so agree with you. I'm pretty sure the look of dumbfounded amazement never left my face the whole show thru. 

(I told it was something else)  ^-^

That's a relief. Glad we see it similarly.

Cheers.

[roamer_1]

How do you interpret that term in that context?

Look at the bloodline of Esau... You will find him to be the progenitor of Amalek. The Amalekites == Nephilim
Then, perhaps, read Obediah again.

 

[Quix]

Look at the bloodline of Esau... You will find him to be the progenitor of Amalek. The Amalekites == Nephilim
Then, perhaps, read Obediah again.

 

I simply asked you who you interpreted "they" to be.

I'm not interested in a long research study or rabbit trail at this time.

Sigh.

[Gefn]

@Freya


You might want to read the Mars books by Ben Bova..

Will do.

[Ghost Bear]

I was told to read the Mars trilogy by Kim Stanley Robinson.

It's supposed to be one of the great series of SF, but considering when it was published and what was happening in the SF world at the time (the takeover of the publishing world by the Leftists) I don't know if you can trust the reviews that say it was great. I've never read it, but I have read another work by Kim Stanley Robinson (a book named "Icehenge", which was a collection of three loosely-related stories) and found it so infused with his Leftist politics and world-view that to me it was a really unpleasant read. So based on that experience I wouldn't recommend Robinson as a writer, YMMV.

The book that I listed, "Man Plus", is also kind of dark and depressing, in that while the project succeeds in changing the protagonist into a being that can survive on Mars unaided, he is so changed in the process that by the end it's difficult to consider him human. So I wouldn't necessarily recommend that book as a good time, either.   

[roamer_1]

I simply asked you who you interpreted "they" to be.

I'm not interested in a long research study or rabbit trail at this time.

Sigh.

Well, there's your answer, then... The missive is directed at Edom, or in other words, Esau, or Mt Sier... All relative to the Fallen. Hence, my answer (in short) would be 'powers and principalities in high places' and not hoomin beans.

[thackney]

Except 'they' are not us...

How do you interpret that term in that context?

The vision of Obadiah.

This is what the Sovereign Lord says about Edom—

We have heard a message from the Lord:
An envoy was sent to the nations to say,
“Rise, let us go against her for battle”—
“See, I will make you small among the nations;
you will be utterly despised.
The pride of your heart has deceived you,
you who live in the clefts of the rocksa
and make your home on the heights,
you who say to yourself,
‘Who can bring me down to the ground?’
Though you soar like the eagle
and make your nest among the stars,
from there I will bring you down,”

- - - - - - - -

Edom was not followers of Yahweh

[Cripplecreek]

Well, there's your answer, then... The missive is directed at Edom, or in other words, Esau, or Mt Sier... All relative to the Fallen. Hence, my answer (in short) would be 'powers and principalities in high places' and not hoomin beans.

I don't see any religious issues with going to space as long we continue to honor and keep faith in God. After all, God created the entire universe and its all his domain.

One cool thing about "The Expanse" series is the inclusion and even prominence of religion in the series. So far Mormons have been prominent but I know from reading ahead that Methodists and other Christian sects will play a prominent role in the expansion of mankind in the series.

[roamer_1]

Edom was not followers of Yahweh

@thackney
It necessarily MUST go deeper than merely that, lest one must admit that anyone with a hint of Edom's blood is predisposed and predetermined to go to hell, hence thwarting justice. It would be a fun conversation, but not for here...



@Quix

[roamer_1]

I don't see any religious issues with going to space as long we continue to honor and keep faith in God. After all, God created the entire universe and its all his domain.

The 'religious' issue is not space travel, but rather, genetic tampering.

[Smokin Joe]

The 'religious' issue is not space travel, but rather, genetic tampering.

Exactly. Alter the environment, keep people people. After all we live in places on earth we'd never survive without shelter, and the people who live and work there, while adapted to the environments through countless generations, are still people. Sherpas, Inuit, Bushmen, are still human, but live at altitudes and in climates many would have difficulty surviving, even it that takes a particular skill set to do so.

[Quix]

Well, there's your answer, then... The missive is directed at Edom, or in other words, Esau, or Mt Sier... All relative to the Fallen. Hence, my answer (in short) would be 'powers and principalities in high places' and not hoomin beans.

Thanks.

imho . . . it could be construed that the sentence refers to the human Edomites . . . and by extrapolation . . . mankind.

It doesn't seem to me that the "if you make your nest among the stars," would not refer to angelic--fallen or not--angels who would already be 'among the stars.'

= = =

imho, the point of that Scripture is that God is noting HIS power to humble--to bring 'down' all who would presume to claim any kind of lofty 'perch.'

[Quix]

The vision of Obadiah.

This is what the Sovereign Lord says about Edom—

We have heard a message from the Lord:
An envoy was sent to the nations to say,
“Rise, let us go against her for battle”—
“See, I will make you small among the nations;
you will be utterly despised.
The pride of your heart has deceived you,
you who live in the clefts of the rocksa
and make your home on the heights,
you who say to yourself,
‘Who can bring me down to the ground?’
Though you soar like the eagle
and make your nest among the stars,
from there I will bring you down,”

- - - - - - - -

Edom was not followers of Yahweh

Thanks.

[Cripplecreek]

The 'religious' issue is not space travel, but rather, genetic tampering.

I'm not sure there is a religious or ethical issue in this situation. After all we're not talking about useless cosmetic alterations or sex changes.  Mostly we're talking about things that would be unseen but help humans to survive and even thrive in extreme environments.

I was watching a science show just the other day about isolated populations of people and how they've adapted to their environments over generations. One group lives miles from land on boats ans stilt houses. They have better vision underwater than in air and can hold their breath for several minutes. They also are very tolerant of pressure changes.

[bigheadfred]

The prohibition is against chimeras. Environmental adaptations are one thing. Manbearpig another.

[Idaho_Cowboy]

The sherpas that occupy the Himalayas have exactly those traits. They would make excellent case studies.

Good idea. I'll have to look if any research has been done on that.

[Free Vulcan]

Since the tower of Babel, humans have been somewhat self-limiting. The libraries of Alexandria were reputed to have cures for cancer, for instance.
Every time we get close, someone decides to burn the books. In fact, that's how my mother referred to the cataclysmic episodes in human history as "burning the books" (and perhaps why we had a library at home).
We're close, as a species, to burning the books again and entering another dark age--if not the end of ages. Either we step out and 'conquer' in that  more philosophical sense, or we will likely devolve into another century of bloodletting, despite there being plenty of resources.

This time I'm afraid that the 'burning of books' will be from those that seek to take our tech and bite us on the butt with out. Rather than Babylon 5 or Star Trek, our future seems to be going down the road of Orwell, Huxley, The Matrix, Terminator, and the Borg all wrapped into one.

[roamer_1]

Thanks.

imho . . . it could be construed that the sentence refers to the human Edomites . . . and by extrapolation . . . mankind.

Then one must logically believe that all who spring from Edom - Idumea - Are doomed to hell. Predestined, to align with prophecy. I don't think that to be true. It voids justice and free will among the children of Adam. That there are those who are not eligible among the sons of Adam, who have no part in the grace delivered in the person of Yeshua.

That cannot be, as it thwarts the very intent of EVERYTHING - To SAVE the Sons of Adam (not Israel, not Christians, but ALL mankind).

Hoomin beans who do not qualify are blotted out of the Lamb's Book of Life, which necessarily admits they were natively written in (in order to be blotted out)...

There is only one kind that were never written IN the Book of Life, who qualify for that predestined lack of mercy, and who must necessarily not be hoomins.

It doesn't seem to me that the "if you make your nest among the stars," would not refer to angelic--fallen or not--angels who would already be 'among the stars.'

Well, I dare say the Fallen are n longer among the stars.... but the prophecy would be toward their seed.

imho, the point of that Scripture is that God is noting HIS power to humble--to bring 'down' all who would presume to claim any kind of lofty 'perch.'

While that is true enough, the doom against any who bear the blood of Esau would seem unjust.
But that is a long argument, and a sidebar not in line with the OP

[roamer_1]

Exactly. Alter the environment, keep people people. After all we live in places on earth we'd never survive without shelter, and the people who live and work there, while adapted to the environments through countless generations, are still people. Sherpas, Inuit, Bushmen, are still human, but live at altitudes and in climates many would have difficulty surviving, even it that takes a particular skill set to do so.

But start messing with genetics... with what is by definition 'human', and where will it stop?

[roamer_1]

I'm not sure there is a religious or ethical issue in this situation. After all we're not talking about useless cosmetic alterations or sex changes.  Mostly we're talking about things that would be unseen but help humans to survive and even thrive in extreme environments.

How much of the human genome is sufficient to be called 'human'? Where, pray tell, is the new line to be drawn? And what guarantees that line to remain even there.

This is precisely ethical and religious. It is messin with the very engine of creation. It is not merely against Moses - It is against Eden.

I was watching a science show just the other day about isolated populations of people and how they've adapted to their environments over generations. One group lives miles from land on boats ans stilt houses. They have better vision underwater than in air and can hold their breath for several minutes. They also are very tolerant of pressure changes.

That's all great, but there is no ethical question as to their existence or humanity. To alter genetics intentionally results in questions we'd best not even approach. It is the days of Noah, all over again.

[roamer_1]

The prohibition is against chimeras. Environmental adaptations are one thing. Manbearpig another.

ZACKLY.

[Idaho_Cowboy]

Then one must logically believe that all who spring from Edom - Idumea - Are doomed to hell. Predestined, to align with prophecy. I don't think that to be true. It voids justice and free will among the children of Adam. That there are those who are not eligible among the sons of Adam, who have no part in the grace delivered in the person of Yeshua.

That cannot be, as it thwarts the very intent of EVERYTHING - To SAVE the Sons of Adam (not Israel, not Christians, but ALL mankind).

Hoomin beans who do not qualify are blotted out of the Lamb's Book of Life, which necessarily admits they were natively written in (in order to be blotted out)...

There is only one kind that were never written IN the Book of Life, who qualify for that predestined lack of mercy, and who must necessarily not be hoomins.


Well, I dare say the Fallen are n longer among the stars.... but the prophecy would be toward their seed.


While that is true enough, the doom against any who bear the blood of Esau would seem unjust.
But that is a long argument, and a sidebar not in line with the OP

Those are some good points. Especially the section I bolded. People get wrapped around the axle pretty easy on pre-detestation and such.

God also traces spiritual lineage as well as physical. Jesus told the Pharisees "ye are of your father the devil"

[roamer_1]

Those are some good points. Especially the section I bolded. People get wrapped around the axle pretty easy on pre-detestation and such.

Being raised up a hard-wound Calvinist, I know that to be true... And it is the bane of Calvinism, IMHO. I have since come to a more inclusive rather than exclusive point of view. We easily forget it is all about saving the sons of Adam.

God also traces spiritual lineage as well as physical. Jesus told the Pharisees "ye are of your father the devil"

Again, too long an argument for this sidebar, but I see no difference in the two... Perhaps hard to grasp, but I think the spiritual is more 'real' than the physical - of a higher quality. A greater set as viewed from the subset which we can now observe.

In the mean time, with our 'faith' so stubbornly couched in an ethereal, misty sense of 'spiritual', so easily allegorically surmised, we fail to see the raw, 'greater than physical' truth  that is in the literal words:

There IS a seed whose head will be crushed. There is a 'they' who will 'mingle themselves with the seed of men' as per Daniel - By definition, 'they' are distinct from men, necessarily... Literally.

In a strictly legal sense it can be said that we are all sons of the devil, I suppose - That our entrance back into the House of YHWH is by adoption alone... But it does not negate the very real thing that Herod was of Edom - an Idumean - and that Caiaphas was likely Idumean (appointed high priest, and not of the lineage of Aaron) - There is something in that, just beyond what one can put a finger on.

Edom was physically present and legally responsible in the railroaded conviction of Yeshua. These, no doubt, were a physical manifestation of the doom against Edom. These ARE Edom, by blood and by spirit, BOTH.

No doubt such as these are who the prophets spoke about. Does that mean that anyone who carries the physical seed is likewise? I should hope not. But the seed who's head will be crushed came up through Edom, and actively so.

[Smokin Joe]

But start messing with genetics... with what is by definition 'human', and where will it stop?

At some point the product will no longer be human. The whole reason for technology, aside from making the Mrs. happy, is to overcome our environment, to be warm, dry, cool, wet, whatever we want, when we want. We invent things so that even the least adapted of us might survive. We recognize that there are talents that are not physical, nor feats of endurance, which can and do bring about more adaptation, but through technology and not genetics.
That tech will help us conquer the stars, not the ability to withstand multiple gravities or survive incredibly thin air, for if we become those organisms, we might be humanoid, but will no longer be human.