The Tyranny of Nice-Nice Culture

[Smokin Joe]

That's some shit right there.

Yes, but it is a good thing to know your sh*t! Now we's all educated!

[DB]

Yes, but it is a good thing to know your sh*t! Now we's all educated!

Is there a word that has more meanings based on context?

[Wingnut]

Is there a word that has more meanings based on context?

F :nometalk: ck if I know?   

[Smokin Joe]

Is there a word that has more meanings based on context?

There might be, but I'd be hard pressed to come up with one.

[LateForLunch]

Why would what they wear or choose to spend money on have any bearing on their words or their impact on you.  Do the words of those wearing hand-me-downs and scraps affect you differently?

Elitists. Materialists. Nepotists. Plutocrats. Aristocrats. None of them are in the best tradition of the American Way. A whole buncha folks missed the boat on the "egalitarianism" part of  Classical Liberalism. Perhaps in the circles you travel there is little snobbery. I see it a great deal - not so much the brunt of it as an observer.

Leftists are among the most vile materialists walking. I loathe them not because they are wealthy - on the contrary, but because they are so detached from reality that they do not see their own wealth for what it is - power - either to do great good or great harm, nothing more or less.

I have good friends who are very well to do but virtually all of their wealth emerged from merit, not *ss sucking (nepotism). Perhaps  you've never read Vonnegut. Sirens of Titan for instance or God Bless You Mister Rosewater? For all of his leftist proclivities, Vonnegut had what is wrong with capitalism nailed down and bleeding from every extremity ( nods to Hunter Thompson). Green heads suck almost as much as leftists.

If you disagree perhaps you have not seen as much of the sick part of Humanity as I.

[Smokin Joe]

Elitists. Materialists. Nepotists. Plutocrats. Aristocrats. None of them are in the best tradition of the American Way. A whole buncha folks missed the boat on the "egalitarianism" part of  Classical Liberalism. Perhaps in the circles you travel there is little snobbery. I see it a great deal - not so much the brunt of it as an observer.

Leftists are among the most vile materialists walking. I loathe them not because they are wealthy - on the contrary, but because they are so detached from reality that they do not see their own wealth for what it is - power - either to do great good or great harm, nothing more or less.

I have good friends who are very well to do but virtually all of their wealth emerged from merit, not *ss sucking (nepotism). Perhaps  you've never read Vonnegut. Sirens of Titan for instance or God Bless You Mister Rosewater? For all of his leftist proclivities, Vonnegut had what is wrong with capitalism nailed down and bleeding from every extremity ( nods to Hunter Thompson). Green heads suck almost as much as leftists.

If you disagree perhaps you have not seen as much of the sick part of Humanity as I.

I have seen both sides, where the moneyed look down their noses, and the poor look up theirs, I have been fortunate enough to be in both places, I just didn't fit in because I don't give a squat how much money someone has, whether they are 'in style' or not, I look at the person.

In my little estimation (good for nothing but my own reference perhaps), the person is what matters.

I have seen people in very expensive suits kneel in blood to help a stranger who was poorly dressed. I have seen people practically in rags do the same, but I have seen the downside of both groups as well. (Let me have your tie, if I may so I can use it to tie this in place...and they do.)
You can't pick and choose good or evil on the basis of what people wear. It's a vile stereotype.

Their actions will tell you all you need to know, especially in a pinch.

And yes, the leftists are usually the ones who tend to walk away and not look back, whining about how traumatic it was to see that guy bleeding, without offering to help. They may be sending smartphone video to their friends, but they won't think to call 911.

[thackney]

Elitists. Materialists. Nepotists. Plutocrats. Aristocrats. None of them are in the best tradition of the American Way. A whole buncha folks missed the boat on the "egalitarianism" part of  Classical Liberalism. Perhaps in the circles you travel there is little snobbery. I see it a great deal - not so much the brunt of it as an observer.

You speak of attitudes, when I was commenting on your comments of their clothes.

I don't judge people based on how they choose to spend their money.  Lots of people would not choose to spend as I have. 

[LateForLunch]

You speak of attitudes, when I was commenting on your comments of their clothes.

I don't judge people based on how they choose to spend their money.  Lots of people would not choose to spend as I have.

hah hah well, fair enough. The French have a saying, "One should dine for one's own pleasure and dress for everyone else's" I've always liked that saying (and I generally don't like a lot of French sayings). 'Don't wear sloppy clothing in public. I don't leave my shirt tails hanging out unless they're designed to be worn that way. I don't wear white tee shirts in public places like stores or restaurants (a colored tee shirt is different). White tee shirts are underwear and don't get me started about wife-beater shirts.

Sure, decent folks can have nice things. But people who flaunt it or are ostentatious about them or who otherwise put their finery front and center of how they present themselves are a joke. So many leftists I have met or seen seem to do that it's sort of become a cliche'.

People with a lot of wealth who are yet not really part of the meritocracy rankle me. The fancy crap often is as much a give-away for people like that as feathers on a peacock.

[Silver Pines]

I have seen both sides, where the moneyed look down their noses, and the poor look up theirs, I have been fortunate enough to be in both places, I just didn't fit in because I don't give a squat how much money someone has, whether they are 'in style' or not, I look at the person.

In my little estimation (good for nothing but my own reference perhaps), the person is what matters.

I have seen people in very expensive suits kneel in blood to help a stranger who was poorly dressed. I have seen people practically in rags do the same, but I have seen the downside of both groups as well. (Let me have your tie, if I may so I can use it to tie this in place...and they do.)
You can't pick and choose good or evil on the basis of what people wear. It's a vile stereotype.

Their actions will tell you all you need to know, especially in a pinch.

And yes, the leftists are usually the ones who tend to walk away and not look back, whining about how traumatic it was to see that guy bleeding, without offering to help. They may be sending smartphone video to their friends, but they won't think to call 911.

@Smokin Joe

Very well said.

Class envy tends to rankle me.  My in-laws are some of the best people you would want to meet, and they have done very well for themselves.  They did so by working hard all their lives, focusing on building a business and giving it everything they had.

They are both solid Christians and they'll do anything to help people out.  Their church has benefited from their generosity, and so have their employees. 

As a result of their labor, my mother-in-law is able to indulge herself with the clothing and the jewelry she wants.  Am I bragging?  No, just stating a fact.  It's their money, not mine.  My husband and I are just middle-class.  But it burns me to think there are people who would judge her based on what she's wearing, and find her wanting.

They can kiss her rear, as far as I'm concerned. She might be nicer about it.

[LateForLunch]

@Smokin Joe

Very well said.

Class envy tends to rankle me.  My in-laws are some of the best people you would want to meet, and they have done very well for themselves.  They did so by working hard all their lives, focusing on building a business and giving it everything they had.

They are both solid Christians and they'll do anything to help people out.  Their church has benefited from their generosity, and so have their employees. 

As a result of their labor, my mother-in-law is able to indulge herself with the clothing and the jewelry she wants.  Am I bragging?  No, just stating a fact.  It's their money, not mine.  My husband and I are just middle-class.  But it burns me to think there are people who would judge her based on what she's wearing, and find her wanting.

They can kiss her rear, as far as I'm concerned. She might be nicer about it.

Heartily agree in all. I have a Dutch friend who may have put it best - some are just real people. Other real people tend to recognize them fairly quickly. It's not really an exclusive club but it's nice to be in it - for everyone. 

[EasyAce]

Exactly.

A valued sheepdog is well behaved and only vicious against an actually attacker.  A sheepdog that will harasses your guests and friends is eventually replaced.

Ralph Wolf and Sam Sheepdog, Steal Wool

[roamer_1]

I had a friend who once told me, "In this world, there are sheep and there are wolves. Generally the sheep shun the wolves as being not "nice" people. The sheep respect the wolves to some degree but they often don't want the wolves around behaving like wolves. That is, they don't want them around until some violent bad actor or other needs to be taken out - then the sheep want the wolves to save them. But afterward they want them to go away until they are needed again." Hmmm.

[...]

I long ago accepted the fact that I am a wolf. I take pleasure in the idea of harming others - but only in the context of righteous action, not in a wanton manner.

Good post. But the problem in your analogy is that it leaves out the sheep dog. I wonder how the sheep know the difference, or if there is a difference to them - One canine looks much like another.
All the sheep cares for is stuffing it's belly and not getting eaten.
But the dog knows the wolf, and the wolf knows the dog.

Let the sheep be sheep. It's what they are.

But the dog will be the dog - It's in his every sinew, it's in his very marrow.
He'll do what he does without the sheep understanding why, because it doesn't matter if the sheep understand it.
What matters is that the wolf understands it.

That's me. I'm the dog. Kin to the wolf. Understanding, like the wolf, blood and fang and claw. Capable of wildness and freedom, but content in the beneficial wisdom of order. The difference is in the Master.

[roamer_1]

There are sheep, great in number. There are wolves, too, but you left out the sheepdogs. The question to answer is one of are you a wolf or a sheepdog?

Ha! GMTA... I'll bow out now.

[roamer_1]

Exactly.

A valued sheepdog is well behaved and only vicious against an actually attacker.  A sheepdog that will harasses your guests and friends is eventually replaced.

Aw, to a degree, I suppose... But a dog is still a dog. He ain't always going to stay on the porch, he is going to roll around in dead things for no apparent reason.  And he'll probably lift your hamburger if you walk off and leave it...
After all, he's a dog.

[roamer_1]

Is there a word that has more meanings based on context?

Yes, but it's also even more impolite.

[roamer_1]

Sure, decent folks can have nice things. But people who flaunt it or are ostentatious about them or who otherwise put their finery front and center of how they present themselves are a joke. So many leftists I have met or seen seem to do that it's sort of become a cliche'.

The question swings upon a thread. One must necessarily agree upon what 'nice things' are. I don't think the term would mean the same thing to everyone.

I wouldn't be caught dead in a luxury car - It literally means *nothing* to me... but I'll spend 10k putting a ground-pounding engine in a beat up old pickup, and jacking that puppy up to fit a set of 44's - That is traveling in style to me.

$40 worth of kit in a beat up old bushpot means more to me that an expensive watch ever could. That old pot has been with me to hell and back, and is proven trustworthy beyond most humans. Same with my tommy and my knife. Guns have come and gone, but those things have been with me my whole life.

I'd set more store in a new set of leathers and a fine pair of mocs, than I ever would in a suit and tie (which I will ever own again)

My 'nice things' ain't yours - that does not diminish their value to me.

[EasyAce]

The question swings upon a thread. One must necessarily agree upon what 'nice things' are. I don't think the term would mean the same thing to everyone.

Exactly. Maybe my only indulgence of what others would call "nice" are the four Gibson Les Paul guitars I'm
lucky enough to own and play. Each is different (and one is set up for playing slide), but they all do what I
want when I play my music. To another guitar player, Les Pauls might be no great shakes.

And they're not even the most expensive guitars Gibson makes, depending on the particular instrument. I've
seen big Gibson archtop hollowbody guitars with five-figure prices on them new. Including the only one I'd
ever really wanted a crack at playing---a variation on the L-5 model with an unusual (for that model) slim
body. It was once made as a special for comedian George Gobel, a long time ago, and Gibson is making it
now as the L-5 CT, whatever the CT means. Beautiful instrument. I don't have ten large to lay out for it.
But I'm not even close to complaining when I think of the instruments I do own.

[Smokin Joe]

Ha! GMTA... I'll bow out now.

Yes, they do. You said it well, no need to bow out. Maybe some stray sheep will read and understand.

[LateForLunch]

Yes, they do. You said it well, no need to bow out. Maybe some stray sheep will read and understand.

GMTA = Great Minds Think Alike (for those who may not know).

In general I think most normal people agree that people who push their material possessions front-and-center to their identity in an ostentatious way are displaying an attitude that is not really in the best tradition of the American Way.

Having nice things and flaunting them are two entirely different things to a large degree which is the central point.

One way to test the attitude of people with nice things that I've used is to give someone a small compliment or ask a question about something that is somewhat pricey or extravagant and observe the owner's reaction. If they make a big f-ing deal about how much it costs as opposed to the qualities which make is desirable or superior from a substantive, operational or compositional standpoint, one can gauge fairly accurately whether they are a "real person" or someone who is a pretentious "poseur".

[EC]

One way to test the attitude of people with nice things that I've used is to give someone a small compliment or ask a question about something that is somewhat pricey or extravagant and observe the owner's reaction. If they make a big f-ing deal about how much it costs as opposed to the qualities which make is desirable or superior from a substantive, operational or compositional standpoint, one can gauge fairly accurately whether they are a "real person" or someone who is a pretentious "poseur".

^^^^^ This!

Although I do also rate highly the person who just gives an embarrassed sort of shrug and says "I just liked it." Sometimes something is a bit too personal to just talk on about to people you don't know really well.

[roamer_1]

Exactly. Maybe my only indulgence of what others would call "nice" are the four Gibson Les Paul guitars I'm
lucky enough to own and play.

I know exactly what you mean... Mine are Guilds, but otherwise all the same. I am currently looking to replace my Aida banjo, which I lost by loaning it to a friend. And I never got around to buying an electric bass or a dobro/steel... but I would if I could. My instruments are among my most prized possessions.

Chief among them would be my old '77 Guild F20 flat top, which is not quite in as bad of repair as Willie's Trigger, but you get the idea... Broke her neck right up by the head on a cattle drive east of the mountains... Put it back together as artfully as I could (which is considerable, but still)... She got thumped hard in the belly. got a helluva dent from that one... Some years ago, I took her finish down and steamed out most of her 'character, and gave her a new sunburst, and spankin new Schaller heads which probably cost half of what the guitar cost me new ...

But like most things that have a hard life, when she sings, it's a beautiful thing. I doubt anyone would give me 20 bucks for that old guitar, but to me, she's priceless.

[EasyAce]

I know exactly what you mean... Mine are Guilds, but otherwise all the same. I am currently looking to replace my Aida banjo, which I lost by loaning it to a friend. And I never got around to buying an electric bass or a dobro/steel... but I would if I could. My instruments are among my most prized possessions.

I bought a Gold Tone eight-string lap steel guitar last year. Bargain price, beautiful sound. I'm actually pretty decent
playing it, too, I'd never tried playing that kind of thing before, but I'd heard a guy named Sonny Rhodes playing
amazing blues on a lap steel and thought I'd give it a try, since I play blues. (Most of my stuff is blues on the jazzier
side with a lot of free group improvisation, but I have a couple of numbers where the sound of a lap steel works
great.) I figured, if I could play slide guitar it wouldn't take me too long to get comfortable playing lap steel.
And it hasn't.

This is the lap steel instrument:



And this is the fourth of the Les Pauls I own, I acquired her last summer:

Chief among them would be my old '77 Guild F20 flat top, which is not quite in as bad of repair as Willie's Trigger, but you get the idea... Broke her neck right up by the head on a cattle drive east of the mountains... Put it back together as artfully as I could (which is considerable, but still)... She got thumped hard in the belly. got a helluva dent from that one... Some years ago, I took her finish down and steamed out most of her 'character, and gave her a new sunburst, and spankin new Schaller heads which probably cost half of what the guitar cost me new ...

But like most things that have a hard life, when she sings, it's a beautiful thing. I doubt anyone would give me 20 bucks for that old guitar, but to me, she's priceless.

And that's all you need to know, how priceless she is to you.

[roamer_1]

I'd heard a guy named Sonny Rhodes playing amazing blues on a lap steel and thought I'd give it a try, since I play blues.

You wanna hear somebody wail a steel? look for Robert Randolph - Nothing comes to mind except Sawyer Brown's 'Mission Temple Fireworks Stand'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZBOvHf-NHE  (Sorry if the religious/Pentecostal content offends, but that guy can rock a steel like no one I've ever seen)

Most of my stuff is blues on the jazzier side with a lot of free group improvisation[...]

I'm Country, Outlaw Country, Southern Rock, Bluegrass, and Delta Blues... I can go as far as Big Hair rock, but it ain't really my preference... Chicken Pickin is where I live. Jazz ain't my thing, but I can do Chicago blues.

This is the lap steel instrument:

Nice.

And this is the fourth of the Les Pauls I own, I acquired her last summer:

Right up my alley - My Guild electric (I can't remember her model for the life of me) is Guild's answer to the Les Paul. The form factor is nearly identical.

And that's all you need to know, how priceless she is to you.

Funny how that works, ain't it? That ol gitfiddle spent most of my marriage in her case... My ex hated me playing, especially once the kids came. She didn't like the jam sessions or the dive bars and honkytonks much either. Probably close to 15 years, I never touched the thing.

Since the divorce, she hasn't seen the inside of that case for even a minute. There hasn't been a day that she hasn't been in my arms. I have no idea why I ever put her down. That'll never happen again. My priorities have been straightened out.

[EasyAce]

You wanna hear somebody wail a steel? look for Robert Randolph - Nothing comes to mind except Sawyer Brown's 'Mission Temple Fireworks Stand'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZBOvHf-NHE  (Sorry if the religious/Pentecostal content offends, but that guy can rock a steel like no one I've ever seen)

I'm Country, Outlaw Country, Southern Rock, Bluegrass, and Delta Blues... I can go as far as Big Hair rock, but it ain't really my preference... Chicken Pickin is where I live. Jazz ain't my thing, but I can do Chicago blues.

Alas, country ain't my thing, except for Johnny Cash. I like a lot of different blues, Chicago, Delta, some Texas blues, and
when it comes to jazz my first favourites are the jazz people who didn't forget the blues, people like Count Basie, Art Blakey,
Kenny Burrell, John Coltrane (before he went right out of his noodle circa 1965), Miles Davis, Duke Ellington, Dizzy Gillespie,
Jimmy Giuffre, Grant Green, Bobby Hutcherson, Milt Jackson, Charles Mingus, Thelonious Monk, Wes Montgomery, Sonny
Rollins, Jimmy Smith, Stanley Turrentine . . . among others.

Right up my alley - My Guild electric (I can't remember her model for the life of me) is Guild's answer to the Les Paul. The form factor is nearly identical.

Funny how that works, ain't it? That ol gitfiddle spent most of my marriage in her case... My ex hated me playing, especially once the kids came. She didn't like the jam sessions or the dive bars and honkytonks much either. Probably close to 15 years, I never touched the thing.

Since the divorce, she hasn't seen the inside of that case for even a minute. There hasn't been a day that she hasn't been in my arms. I have no idea why I ever put her down. That'll never happen again. My priorities have been straightened out.

Way to go!