Author Topic: The Tyranny of Nice-Nice Culture  (Read 15911 times)

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Offline LateForLunch

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The Tyranny of Nice-Nice Culture
« on: March 09, 2017, 06:15:57 pm »
This came up on another thread, the whole notion of whether or not intensity is a virtue or a liability/danger to society.

There are a lot of different ways to look at the topic of intensity.

In a legal sense (something to which I can speak, owing to the fact that I have three practicing attorneys in my extended fambly) there are some very clear demarcations in  what may or may not be said or done legally in our culture. As with most things under the law, permissible conduct, be it verbal or overt comes down to "evidence of intent".

For example one may openly, publicly say that one wishes to see physical harm or even death come to another - even that they wish to see someone harmed illegally (murdered for instance) without violating the law.  What constitutes a "threat" in the eyes of the law comes down to the commission of some "overt act" which might reasonably cause another to  conclude that their safety was in jeopardy.

The demarcation in the view of "intent" in violent acts is in the context of any statement. Marching directly up to someone or mailing them a letter and stating something like "You should be murdered!" could be reasonably construed to be a threatening statement and therefore prohibited.

If on the other hand, someone writes a script for a play fantasizing about say, assassinating the President of the United States, (which happened in the early 2000s under Bush 43) the law generally views this as protected speech because it is "non directed" speech and "couched in the context of creative expression". 

Web forums are another interesting wrinkle in this area of expression. Some forums (such as this one) are likely to take a conservative (heh) approach to threatening statements and therefore are inclined to err on the side of caution in that regard. That is entirely a matter of choice of the owners/management whose own preferences are themselves protected by law.

Some forums are inclined to have a very libertarian, laissez faire approach aka a "no holds barred" attitude in which only the most egregious encroachments on good taste or overt violations of legality are prohibited.

I have no opinion on which is the better approach, because the objectives of forum O and Os may vary. People have a right to run their forums any way they prefer.

What I am interested in discussing herein however is whether or not intensity in itself or expressions that are decidedly outside conventional demarcations of "nice" have equal or superseding value to culture or to discussions. I truly have no firm opinion but am anxious to hear others thought and feelings about it.

Sometimes I get into trouble because I go too far in my own expressions of intense thinking. Something like that recently occurred on a thread where I posted what some interpreted as inappropriate comments which could have been construed as "threats". That interpretation was if not legally valid, entirely valid from a style and message perspective.

I learned that this forum has more strict standards on talking about violence than others I post at regularly. I have no quarrel with that at all. It is not the site's responsibility to adapt to my preferences, but mine to adapt to it. Selah.

But this episode did raise something that has been on my mind for some time and that's the reason for this post. I want to know how others feel about whether it is in society's best interests to suppress or limit extreme expressions about feeling a desire to engage in violent acts (like the deliberate taking of a human life or injuring of others).

I had a friend who once told me, "In this world, there are sheep and there are wolves. Generally the sheep shun the wolves as being not "nice" people. The sheep respect the wolves to some degree but they often don't want the wolves around behaving like wolves. That is, they don't want them around until some violent bad actor or other needs to be taken out - then the sheep want the wolves to save them. But afterward they want them to go away until they are needed again." Hmmm.

For many years, I pondered this statement and observed the world around me with it in mind. I have decided that he was probably correct.

It's one thing to want to have people who are willing able and experienced and skilled at harming/killing people deliberately. But it is another entirely to have those people hanging around with you and standing next to you in line at the grocery store.

I long ago accepted the fact that I am a wolf. I take pleasure in the idea of harming others - but only in the context of righteous action, not in a wanton manner. I have also accepted that my culture and most of the self-described "civil society" doesn't want to hear about how people like me feel. In fact, if we express ourselves openly, we more likely than not will get a lot of negative feed back for it.

As I said, I have accepted this duplicity from our culture about the "wolves" but I am not at all sure that I like it or that it is healthy. Our warrior-class used to get respect just by rote.

But as time has marched on, and civilian governments have replaced military governments, the warrior class, it seems to me, has been increasingly disdained, marginalized and persecuted simply for being what they are "unrepentant killers".

So I hold my tongue, tolerate being "edited" when I am too honest or too intense with my comments without complaint. I joke with others who share my "unique" POV on things (other wolves) but in the back of my mind, I frequently think to myself, "Am I the one who is wrong? Am I the one who is 'abnormal' because I am not particularly ashamed (nor particularly proud) of my strong feeling that it is not morally wrong to guiltlessly, remorselessly take a human life or even ENJOY causing injury  to wicked people or engaging in physical combat?" Or is my culture just becoming more and more hypocritical and duplicitous?
« Last Edit: March 09, 2017, 06:38:50 pm by LateForLunch »
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Re: The Tyranny of Nice-Nice Culture
« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2017, 07:19:03 pm »
For centuries, the world has been a place where the cunning hide behind the strong. For the most part, the 'warrior king' is gone in Western Civilization, replaced by skulking bureaucrats, conniving courtesans, and deceiving politicians of all stripes who don't dirty their manicured hands but order or impel others to conduct the rough business that ultimately is policy.

In an age where the mere expression of an intent or desire to see harm come to another, no matter how deserving they are, that expression can and will be used against the person making it whenever and however possible. It will be claimed that that is a stated intent to do harm and used to neutralize any possible threat through shunning, ridicule, legal action, or other means.

In such conditions it is wise to keep one's own counsel. When the opportunity arises, causing those who spread misery to have a taste of their own medicine, directly or indirectly can indeed be satisfying, but again, discretion is the greater part of valor.

Thus, we find ourselves speaking softly and carrying our sticks, however limber or stout those may be. Adapt to the times, find ways to express your discontent, even express approval at the idea some ill might come to those who spread ill, but avoid publicly embracing the act, especially in terms which will afford sympathy to those who deserve none.

Like Hamlet's quandry,
Quote
   Now might I do it pat, now he is praying;
   And now I'll do't. And so he goes to heaven;
   And so am I revenged. That would be scann'd:
   A villain kills my father; and for that,
   I, his sole son, do this same villain send
   To heaven.
   O, this is hire and salary, not revenge.
   He took my father grossly, full of bread;   
   With all his crimes broad blown, as flush as May;
   And how his audit stands who knows save heaven?
   But in our circumstance and course of thought,
   'Tis heavy with him: and am I then revenged,
   To take him in the purging of his soul,
   When he is fit and season'd for his passage?
   No!
   Up, sword; and know thou a more horrid hent:
   When he is drunk asleep, or in his rage,
   Or in the incestuous pleasure of his bed;   
   At gaming, swearing, or about some act
   That has no relish of salvation in't;
   Then trip him, that his heels may kick at heaven,
   And that his soul may be as damn'd and black
   As hell, whereto it goes.
  (Rather than kill his father's murderer while he knelt at prayer and take a chance on sending him to heaven, he stays his hand to wait to catch him deep in sin and send him to hell).
To everything there is a season.
There is a time and place for action.
For now, couch displeasure in terms which will not give the snakes reason to strike.
No, I have no problem in the company of warriors, and I respect all who fight for what I think is right.
There are sheep, great in number. There are wolves, too, but you left out the sheepdogs. The question to answer is one of are you a wolf or a sheepdog?
« Last Edit: March 09, 2017, 07:21:23 pm by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Sanguine

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Re: The Tyranny of Nice-Nice Culture
« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2017, 07:30:03 pm »
For later.

Offline Weird Tolkienish Figure

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Re: The Tyranny of Nice-Nice Culture
« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2017, 07:44:55 pm »
A lot of "conservatives" are a bunch of mentally ill ingrates that nobody serious would want to hang out with on a weekend afternoon. Not all of them, but a lot. Many I've known IRL are like that.

Offline Sanguine

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Re: The Tyranny of Nice-Nice Culture
« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2017, 07:46:57 pm »
A lot of "conservatives" are a bunch of mentally ill ingrates that nobody serious would want to hang out with on a weekend afternoon. Not all of them, but a lot. Many I've known IRL are like that.

Like who?  Give me an example?

Offline Sanguine

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Re: The Tyranny of Nice-Nice Culture
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2017, 08:03:34 pm »

Perfect example. @CatherineofAragon captured this interaction between @Right_in_Virginia and a learned gentlemen over at FR:



Go to FR, you will see many casual references to wanting to kill people on a regular basis.

I see.  I don't think of TOS anymore when I think of conservatives.  Reactionary populists - yes, conservatives - no.

Offline Weird Tolkienish Figure

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Re: The Tyranny of Nice-Nice Culture
« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2017, 08:06:48 pm »
I see.  I don't think of TOS anymore when I think of conservatives.  Reactionary populists - yes, conservatives - no.


Well I should say soi disant "conservatives". There's more of them around on the internet than you might think.

Offline Sanguine

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Re: The Tyranny of Nice-Nice Culture
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2017, 08:14:47 pm »

Well I should say soi disant "conservatives". There's more of them around on the internet than you might think.

No doubt that's true.

Offline thackney

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Re: The Tyranny of Nice-Nice Culture
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2017, 08:18:15 pm »
I learned that this forum has more strict standards on talking about violence than others I post at regularly. I have no quarrel with that at all. It is not the site's responsibility to adapt to my preferences, but mine to adapt to it. Selah.

But this episode did raise something that has been on my mind for some time and that's the reason for this post. I want to know how others feel about whether it is in society's best interests to suppress or limit extreme expressions about feeling a desire to engage in violent acts (like the deliberate taking of a human life or injuring of others).

For me, writing in a public forum, I typically take the stance if I won't say it in front of my Mother-In-Law or minor children, I won't post it.  And if the forum often uses language those two would find offensive or insulting, I am not going to stay a part of it.  Or perhaps I would say I'm not going to be part of something I would find a problem being exposed for a future political office.

I view this as public speaking.  I have far looser standards in private conversation among those I consider close friends.  Both in my own conduct and words, as well as theirs.

Hypocritical?  Maybe.  But that is the line I chose to draw in participation of forums.
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Offline LateForLunch

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Re: The Tyranny of Nice-Nice Culture
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2017, 08:58:37 pm »
For me, writing in a public forum, I typically take the stance if I won't say it in front of my Mother-In-Law or minor children, I won't post it.  And if the forum often uses language those two would find offensive or insulting, I am not going to stay a part of it.  Or perhaps I would say I'm not going to be part of something I would find a problem being exposed for a future political office.

I view this as public speaking.  I have far looser standards in private conversation among those I consider close friends.  Both in my own conduct and words, as well as theirs.

Hypocritical?  Maybe.  But that is the line I chose to draw in participation of forums.

No value judgments from me such as hypocrisy. 'Not my business. I wonder though if there is or should be a balance between the right of someone to blow of steam (which we may define as the personal value of expression) and the right or value to society to be enriched, reinforced, helped by expression.

I mean, don't you have the right to blow off steam and just cut loose once in awhile with your deeper thoughts/feelings without having to be concerned about how others may react or whether they will approve or disapprove or (horrors!) be offended?

See, I know people who have lived in cultures which place form over content in human discourse. A Japanese boy I know committed suicide at an unheard-of young age because of pressure from his family. He just snapped because of the overpoweringly dominant tradition of having to clamp down hard on one's own emotions, desires and needs in favor of "honor" and "family".  Sometimes all human beings need to blow off steam, even (especially) young people so where do the needs of a person and the need of society set their limits?

Also in England, a friend reports to me that he and other foreign nationals who associate with Brits detest the duplicitous (two- faced) "civilized" phoniness where they say one thing to your face, then as soon as you are not around say exactly the opposite.  IN addition, I am convinced that this obsessive focus by the British on "propriety" drives the well-known British proclivity to kinky, perverse sexual fetishes (as a means to blow off steam and ameliorate some of the horrible emotional repression they inflict on themselves).
« Last Edit: March 09, 2017, 09:02:39 pm by LateForLunch »
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Re: The Tyranny of Nice-Nice Culture
« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2017, 09:39:08 pm »
No value judgments from me such as hypocrisy. 'Not my business. I wonder though if there is or should be a balance between the right of someone to blow of steam (which we may define as the personal value of expression) and the right or value to society to be enriched, reinforced, helped by expression.

I mean, don't you have the right to blow off steam and just cut loose once in awhile with your deeper thoughts/feelings without having to be concerned about how others may react or whether they will approve or disapprove or (horrors!) be offended?

See, I know people who have lived in cultures which place form over content in human discourse. A Japanese boy I know committed suicide at an unheard-of young age because of pressure from his family. He just snapped because of the overpoweringly dominant tradition of having to clamp down hard on one's own emotions, desires and needs in favor of "honor" and "family".  Sometimes all human beings need to blow off steam, even (especially) young people so where do the needs of a person and the need of society set their limits?

Also in England, a friend reports to me that he and other foreign nationals who associate with Brits detest the duplicitous (two- faced) "civilized" phoniness where they say one thing to your face, then as soon as you are not around say exactly the opposite.  IN addition, I am convinced that this obsessive focus by the British on "propriety" drives the well-known British proclivity to kinky, perverse sexual fetishes (as a means to blow off steam and ameliorate some of the horrible emotional repression they inflict on themselves).

Thackney did a good job expressing how I try to post online in a public forum and the difference of private conversation with people you are close to. I won't lie to get along. People who say one thing to your face and another to others are not people I want to know or associate with. Not using more colorful language or not saying things more directly is also a matter of respect, especially if you don't know them very well. I'll open up significantly more when I know them better and there is mutual trust and understanding.

As far as venting from time to time, if you don't make it a constant burden on others I don't have a problem with it. We're all human.

Offline thackney

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Re: The Tyranny of Nice-Nice Culture
« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2017, 10:01:50 pm »
I mean, don't you have the right to blow off steam and just cut loose once in awhile with your deeper thoughts/feelings without having to be concerned about how others may react or whether they will approve or disapprove or (horrors!) be offended?

Yes we agree in that, but disagree in where that is.  I don't see open public forum as that place for me.
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Offline thackney

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Re: The Tyranny of Nice-Nice Culture
« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2017, 10:03:56 pm »
As far as venting from time to time, if you don't make it a constant burden on others I don't have a problem with it. We're all human.

For me, discussion of causing the death of another, crosses the line.  I recognize it not as a actual threat, but I don't want to be part of a forum where that line is likely to be crossed.  There are other lines, and I probably couldn't recognize them until I tripped over them.
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Re: The Tyranny of Nice-Nice Culture
« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2017, 10:26:15 pm »
For me, discussion of causing the death of another, crosses the line.  I recognize it not as a actual threat, but I don't want to be part of a forum where that line is likely to be crossed.  There are other lines, and I probably couldn't recognize them until I tripped over them.

What I meant by venting is calling the other person names - like idiot - or cursing... Not threats of violence period.

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Re: The Tyranny of Nice-Nice Culture
« Reply #14 on: March 09, 2017, 10:48:35 pm »
I opened this thread because I thought it was about Tranny's.
And I'd find @Frank Cannon in here so we could have a discussion on the merits of the whole subculture.

Offline don-o

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Re: The Tyranny of Nice-Nice Culture
« Reply #15 on: March 09, 2017, 11:37:04 pm »
A lot of "conservatives" are a bunch of mentally ill ingrates that nobody serious would want to hang out with on a weekend afternoon. Not all of them, but a lot. Many I've known IRL are like that.

Couple days ago, you did come clean and declare that you are not one. Have not seen what you ARE, though.

Offline Frank Cannon

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Re: The Tyranny of Nice-Nice Culture
« Reply #16 on: March 10, 2017, 12:01:10 am »
I opened this thread because I thought it was about Tranny's.


I wish this was about that. Instead it is a long winded train to nowhere.

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Re: The Tyranny of Nice-Nice Culture
« Reply #17 on: March 10, 2017, 12:28:03 am »
I'm not a wolf, but a German Shepherd.

As to passion and fighting - I'm all about the art of combat and necessity to engage in it in order to preserve liberty and peace when it is threatened.

I do not play nice with those who bully or threaten, because doing so simply encourages the bully and prolongs the injustice.

This is true online as it is in the meat world.

However, unlike the meat world - online communities are exchanges of ideas and beliefs and often go without any interaction with the personage behind the ideas.

For that reason, I am more willing and ready to draw and cut comments down quicker than I am in the meat world, because it is the ideas that lend themselves to the imposition of tyranny on a large scale.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline thackney

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Re: The Tyranny of Nice-Nice Culture
« Reply #18 on: March 10, 2017, 02:43:08 am »
What I meant by venting is calling the other person names - like idiot - or cursing... Not threats of violence period.

I find a forum that allows name calling, persons insults and the like do more to shut down useful discussion than encourage it.

I wouldn't have conversations face to face that way, I'm not going to do it here.
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Offline EC

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Re: The Tyranny of Nice-Nice Culture
« Reply #19 on: March 10, 2017, 08:48:13 am »
Interesting topic, thank you @LateForLunch   :beer:

I'm fairly plainspoken - how I type is much the same as how I speak. This does include the odd mild cursing, but nothing major. Dad told me back when I was about 6 and just discovering the wonderful world of swearing that a man only swears in normal conversation when he runs out of real words. Took that bit of advice to heart.
Of course, there are "impolite" words I don't consider impolite - shit for example. It's a descriptive word, nothing more.  :tongue2:

As far as calling for hanging some rando schlub from the rafters by his thumbs before giving him a slow death - I don't. Not because there aren't people the world would be a cleaner place without. There are, I can think of about a dozen just from the stories posted in the last few hours.

But ...

I consider myself part of this forum. Got friends here and everything. And one thing you'll find on almost any forum is a tendency for people to try to one up each other. Normally harmless, sometimes hilarious - until it starts getting applied to the death of someone. I'm not going to start that one upping chain, or outrage signalling, as I've seen it called.

I make the same decision when it comes to someone being sent to prison for something. Prison is a legal punishment, with the sentences given out broadly agreed on by the citizens of whatever country/state we're talking about. Prison rape is another crime. It is not a flourish to the legal punishment meted out and should not be treated as such.

Just me tuppence on it.  :shrug:
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Offline Doug Loss

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Re: The Tyranny of Nice-Nice Culture
« Reply #20 on: March 10, 2017, 11:36:58 am »
I long ago accepted the fact that I am a wolf. I take pleasure in the idea of harming others - but only in the context of righteous action, not in a wanton manner. I have also accepted that my culture and most of the self-described "civil society" doesn't want to hear about how people like me feel. In fact, if we express ourselves openly, we more likely than not will get a lot of negative feed back for it.

As I said, I have accepted this duplicity from our culture about the "wolves" but I am not at all sure that I like it or that it is healthy. Our warrior-class used to get respect just by rote.

I think you've slightly misread the cultural situation.  Read this and reflect:

On Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs

From your self-description I'd make you to be a sheepdog, not a wolf.
My political philosophy:

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Offline thackney

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Re: The Tyranny of Nice-Nice Culture
« Reply #21 on: March 10, 2017, 12:42:00 pm »
I think you've slightly misread the cultural situation.  Read this and reflect:

On Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs

From your self-description I'd make you to be a sheepdog, not a wolf.

Exactly.

A valued sheepdog is well behaved and only vicious against an actually attacker.  A sheepdog that will harasses your guests and friends is eventually replaced.
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Re: The Tyranny of Nice-Nice Culture
« Reply #22 on: March 10, 2017, 12:46:51 pm »
I have never seen any "nice-nice culture"

Offline Sanguine

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Re: The Tyranny of Nice-Nice Culture
« Reply #23 on: March 10, 2017, 12:58:36 pm »
I have never seen any "nice-nice culture"

Geron, if true, that is very, very sad. 

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Re: The Tyranny of Nice-Nice Culture
« Reply #24 on: March 10, 2017, 01:24:03 pm »
Interesting topic, thank you @LateForLunch   :beer:


I make the same decision when it comes to someone being sent to prison for something. Prison is a legal punishment, with the sentences given out broadly agreed on by the citizens of whatever country/state we're talking about. Prison rape is another crime. It is not a flourish to the legal punishment meted out and should not be treated as such.

Just me tuppence on it.  :shrug:
Thanks for that viewpoint, @EC . While often mentioned around here as a possible fate for some of the more unlikely victims, yes, prison rape is a crime. I don't think any of us are advocating that that is part of someone's punishment, but the possibility exists for those who end up in that system.

What we often postulate is the extended presence of the privileged in the midst of the very people who they proclaim are downtrodden, which should be as educational as it is unlikely.

Certainly philosophical discussions are a possibility, however remote, especially in the presence of one who has a likely future which will be spent within those walls, but that same philosophy may fall victim to the realities of human nature at its worst.

The people in prisons, and the prisons, after all, exist because our culture has judged that these are people who have conducted themselves in a manner which we do not want in our society at large and that they should be isolated from the rest of us. Despite not wanting some of these people back in society, we lack the moral will to shorten their stay, perhaps because (especially now) our trust in the standards of 'proof', evidence, and faith in the intelligent discretion of the jury is at a low, perhaps because as a culture we are too timid.
By their behaviour those privileged few who engage in egregious lawbreaking, rely on the likelyhood that their relationships with those in power (coupled with a similar lack of societal will) will keep them from the same fate as more ordinary people, often the more ordinary people they claim to champion. That brings us back to the Senator's son in a cell with 'Bubba', the lonely lifer.
Some situations, regardless of outcome, will demonstrate that no one is immune to the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, regardless of their station. After all, not even royalty (which we are not supposed to have here) is immune to the law, and especially the laws of nature, however twisted they may be in a particular context.
 
In postulating the results of such an unlikely outcome, that someone who is such a close relative to someone who occupied a high position in a Party which often seems to consider itself outside the law, schadenfreude's sweet seduction is sometimes overwhelming.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2017, 01:24:38 pm by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis