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Offline thackney

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No Peak Oil For America Or The World
« on: March 06, 2017, 10:24:31 pm »
No Peak Oil For America Or The World
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2017/03/02/no-peak-oil-for-america-or-the-world/#5e86fc1e4220
MAR 2, 2017

...BP’s Spencer Dale summed it up nicely, “For every barrel of oil consumed over the past 35 years, two new barrels have been discovered.” And this shows no sign of slowing down any time soon. Peak oil has probably moved out a hundred years or more.

While we talk about decreasing our fossil fuel use, it’s easy to forget that humans find it really hard not to use what they have a lot of. And we have a lot of oil. And gas. And coal. In fact, the United States has more oil, gas and coal together than any other country in the world.

Fossil fuels are deposits of hydrocarbon materials in the earth. The conventional types are petroleum or crude oil, coal and natural gas. These deposits form from the organic materials in bodies of long-dead organisms trapped in accumulating sediments, and buried for geologic time.

For petroleum, these were primarily marine organisms such as plankton deposited over the last 600 million years, although most of the petroleum left formed between 65 and 2 million years ago.

For coal, it was plant material primarily from forests deposited during the Carboniferous between 350 and 270 million years ago before microbes had developed that could breakdown lignin, the real hard parts of wood.

Fossil fuels form when these organic materials are heated and pressed as they are buried deper in the Earth. Natural gas consists of the volatile components coming off of petroleum, mainly methane (CH4) but also some ethane, propane and butane. Conventional oil and gas are rarely found at the original site of formation. Coal does not migrated from its original site of deposition.

Because petroleum and gas are fluid and less dense than rock, both migrate laterally and vertically through more permeable rocks until they are trapped beneath dense impermeable rocks that have been folded or faulted into an advantageous shape for trapping. Petroleum and gas are extracted from these conventional traps, or reservoirs, through wells drilled from the surface.

However, unconventional deposits are primarily those where the oil and gas could not migrate to conventional traps, but are stuck in the very tight and tiny pores and fractures in these tight rocks, mainly shales and tight sandstones, or are not very fluid like heavy oils and tars. The ability to seriously exploit these unconventional reserves did not exist practically before 2000.

Think of conventional versus unconventional oil like jelly donuts versus tiramisu (see figure). Drilling into conventional sources is like sticking a straw in a jelly donut – the petroleum is trapped in a large single formation that just flows out under pressure.



Drilling into unconventional sources like oil and gas shale is quite different, more like tiramisu – the petroleum is in many layers that have to be individually tapped using horizontal drilling and fracking methods to open up the rock.

Saudi Arabia has a bunch of really big jelly donuts. The United States has lots of tiramisu, plus some pretty good jelly donuts as well. But we keep finding more tiramisu.

Hydraulic fracturing, or fracking, of these rocks has allowed us to recover gas and oil from these tight rocks, and horizontal drilling, as well as drilling many-directional strings from a single well, have allowed pinpoint targeting of these deposits, making recovery economic. If the crude is think and tarry, and won’t flow at all, like the Alberta tar sands, it must be removed by using heat, steam or solvents and mixed with more fluid crude for transport.

Unfortunately, the environmental cost of unconventionals is even greater than for conventional sources.

World oil and gas reserves are estimated in four ways:

1) those that are economically recoverable (this is what is used most often), also known as proven reserves,

2) those that are technically recoverable (we think we could recover these in the future),

3) total or in-place reserves (the total amount of oil and gas we know of but know we can’t get it all out yet), and

4) Unknown reserves (those we do not know about yet, primarily under ice sheets).

We still only use the first two to estimate global oil reserves, and so they keep changing as we develop new technologies and find new unconventional reserves.

Surprisingly, access to so much oil does not mean the price will go down or stay down. The price of oil is political and is set by the big players, particularly by the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC), led by Saudi Arabia, in a way that maximizes profits and controls supply and demand.

Too much oil on the market means the price drops and oil-producing countries don't make as much money as they want to. Too little oil on the market means the price skyrockets and people begin to use less oil, become more efficient and move towards non-petroleum sources like electric vehicles. Bad for oil-producing countries

So it is a tightrope walk for oil producers.

As you would expect, these new technologies, and the flood of unconventional sources, have caused some political and economic disruptions. Oi prices had been about $100/bbl for several years running up to 2014. But as shale oil began flooding the global market, the price began to fall in 2014. Usually, when that happens, OPEC cuts production to get the prices back up.

Instead, Saudi Arabia initiated an economic oil war against the United States by refusing to cut production in November of 2014.  This was an attempt to drive U.S. shale oil producers bankrupt and slow the flow of North American shale oil onto the global market.

In fact, OPEC increased oil production further, which drove oil prices down even more, eventually dropping to about $30/bbl in 2016, a price at which shale producers can’t even break-even.

Initially, this oil war made the U.S. shale oil industry leaner and meaner as the big guys like Exxon bought out the small guys going bankrupt. But eventually, even the big guys had to decrease shale oil production, and even some conventional reserves have been closed down.

So the oil war seems to have worked out for the Saudis and OPEC. According to Chris Helman of Forbes, the Saudi’s tactic has brought a halt to the shale boom and has also potentially scared off a whole generation of exploration into the deepwater and arctic.  “75% of America’s drilling rigs are in mothballs and fracking crews have been tossed to the wind.”

Oil prices are back up over $50/bbl and holding steady.

The unconventional oil is still there, it’s just that OPEC will not make it very economic to recover until we really need it.

But certainly, Peak Oil is no longer in sight.
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Offline Elderberry

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Re: No Peak Oil For America Or The World
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2017, 10:31:49 pm »
Peak Oil? Not If This Deep Earth Hydrocarbon Theory Is True

We know how oil and natural gas deposits were created; living organisms died, were compressed, and heated under heavy layers of sediments in the Earth's crust.

Scientists have debated for years whether some of these hydrocarbons could also have been created deeper in the Earth and formed without organic matter.  Now scientists say they have found that ethane and heavier hydrocarbons can be synthesized under the pressure-temperature conditions of the upper mantle; the layer of Earth under the crust and on top of the core.

http://www.science20.com/news_articles/peak_oil_not_if_deep_earth_hydrocarbon_theory_true

Offline Weird Tolkienish Figure

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Re: No Peak Oil For America Or The World
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2017, 01:12:40 am »
I read there is more energy in frozen methane on the ocean floor than in all other hydrocarbons that n earth including what we have already burned.

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: No Peak Oil For America Or The World
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2017, 01:55:49 am »
I read there is more energy in frozen methane on the ocean floor than in all other hydrocarbons that n earth including what we have already burned.
Perhaps, but a lot of it is inaccessible.

Quote
Methane Hydrate
The world's largest natural gas resource is trapped beneath permafrost and ocean sediments.

The Next Energy "Game Changer"?
As natural gas from shale becomes a global energy "game changer," oil and gas researchers are working to develop new technologies to produce natural gas from methane hydrate deposits. This research is important because methane hydrate deposits are believed to be a larger hydrocarbon resource than all of the world's oil, natural gas and coal resources combined. [1] If these deposits can be efficiently and economically developed, methane hydrate could become the next energy game changer.
http://geology.com/articles/methane-hydrates/
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Offline Weird Tolkienish Figure

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Re: No Peak Oil For America Or The World
« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2017, 01:59:28 am »
Perhaps, but a lot of it is inaccessible.
http://geology.com/articles/methane-hydrates/


True, but at present technology levels only.

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: No Peak Oil For America Or The World
« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2017, 02:06:47 am »
This is a lot more than just new ways to drill. Tremendous differences include the technologies to induce multiple hydraulic fracturing is needed for the Tiramisu to give up anything.

Besides the operational changes on accessing, it is equally important in the exploration of suitable horizons susceptible to this technology.

The Tiramisu layers are quite variable.  Some of the layers of 'good stuff' are very rich, while others won't be eaten until after the good stuff is eaten.
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Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: No Peak Oil For America Or The World
« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2017, 02:13:57 am »

True, but at present technology levels only.
All energy exploitation, whether for coal, gas or oil, has that caveat.  And it is not really the technology but its commercial exploitation of that technology.

My years in the industry have shown a lot of possibilities in a laboratory environment as compared what is economic.

Case in point is the lab processes that can extract almost 100% of the oil in the ground.  That does not translate to the field, though.

At the present, conventional oil recoveries average perhaps 35 to 45% and unconventionals less than 10% of oil in the ground.
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Offline Weird Tolkienish Figure

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Re: No Peak Oil For America Or The World
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2017, 02:16:26 am »
The green river formation in colorado has somehting like a few trillion barrels in it, but it has to be warmed up to get to it, making it expensive. It's called oil shale, aka kerogen, and the US has a ton of it.

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: No Peak Oil For America Or The World
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2017, 02:46:19 am »
The green river formation in colorado has somehting like a few trillion barrels in it, but it has to be warmed up to get to it, making it expensive. It's called oil shale, aka kerogen, and the US has a ton of it.
Yes, and if you include all the oil and gas shales and coal seams, there is for all intents and purposes an unlimited amount of energy resources available to us.  Enough that the world does not really have to worry much for many many generations.

OPEC is discouraged as the genie is out of the bottle and can only be placed back in if we do something really stupid like believe Algore is correct.
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Online Smokin Joe

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Re: No Peak Oil For America Or The World
« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2017, 04:28:10 am »
I have a book in my office from 1947 spelling out gloom and doom when we run out of oil. This is a long running gig. There was a time I thought that would happen, but as I worked well after well I realized a few things:

There is a lot of oil out there we do not have the technology to recover.

Much of what we do have the tech to recover, we do not have the tech to recover economically.

Yes, there are still plays out there untapped, unrecognized for their potential. When the right people connect, when the market is right, they will be explored and developed.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

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Offline thackney

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Re: No Peak Oil For America Or The World
« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2017, 12:46:49 pm »
I read there is more energy in frozen methane on the ocean floor than in all other hydrocarbons that n earth including what we have already burned.

Yes, but it is not limited to only the ocean floor.  Alaska has done test wells and produced it from the North Slope, captured beneath the permafrost.

Data from Innovative Methane Hydrate Test on Alaska's North Slope Now Available on NETL Website
https://energy.gov/fe/articles/data-innovative-methane-hydrate-test-alaskas-north-slope-now

Promising results, DOE publishes more findings from North Slope methane hydrate test well
http://www.petroleumnews.com/pntruncate/512154321.shtml
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Offline MajorClay

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Re: No Peak Oil For America Or The World
« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2017, 02:12:06 pm »
Great thread.  Methane Hydrates

Offline thackney

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Re: No Peak Oil For America Or The World
« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2017, 02:19:24 pm »
Great thread.  Methane Hydrates

The brass ring of energy.
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Online Smokin Joe

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Re: No Peak Oil For America Or The World
« Reply #13 on: March 07, 2017, 02:55:11 pm »
The brass ring of energy.
Considering sea level drops in an Ice Age, I wonder if those hydrates are the real greenhouse mechanism that warms things back up.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline uglybiker

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Re: No Peak Oil For America Or The World
« Reply #14 on: March 07, 2017, 03:14:50 pm »
Great thread.  Methane Hydrates



The future is in plastics methane hydrates!
nuh-nuh-nuh-nuh-nuh-nuh-nuh-nuh-nuh-nuh-nuh-nuh-nuh-nuh-nuh-nuh-BATMAN!!!

Offline thackney

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Re: No Peak Oil For America Or The World
« Reply #15 on: March 07, 2017, 03:21:57 pm »
Considering sea level drops in an Ice Age, I wonder if those hydrates are the real greenhouse mechanism that warms things back up.

Please recognize they are not literally on the top of the sea floor, but in relatively shallow accumulations both onshore and offshore.



https://www.netl.doe.gov/research/oil-and-gas/project-summaries/methane-hydrate/de-fe0010180
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Online Smokin Joe

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Re: No Peak Oil For America Or The World
« Reply #16 on: March 07, 2017, 04:32:29 pm »
Please recognize they are not literally on the top of the sea floor, but in relatively shallow accumulations both onshore and offshore.



https://www.netl.doe.gov/research/oil-and-gas/project-summaries/methane-hydrate/de-fe0010180
Consider:
http://geology.com/articles/methane-hydrates/

During an Ice age, sea level drops by several hundred meters, which would move some of the seafloor hydrate deposits out of the stable range. That would cause methane releases from those deposits, and as we are commonly reminded, methane is a gas that has a greenhouse effect that is multiples of any that the CO2 the ecowhackos are having fits about.

In the past, some of the relief from Ice Ages can be laid on insolation, but with the higher albedo of widespread ice sheets, the additional mechanism of a greenhouse effect might be what keeps the planet from becoming an iceball. The CO2 curve is likely a result of cooling/warming and not a forcing factor--a symptom, not the cause. The accumulation of and release of those methane deposits based on ocean depth would be self limiting, in that beyond a certain drop in sea level, the deposits would be released, and that they would start to accumulate once sea level rose again, limiting the amount of warming that occurred.
My guess is that they are part of the planetary 'thermostat'. 
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline thackney

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Re: No Peak Oil For America Or The World
« Reply #17 on: March 07, 2017, 04:57:17 pm »
Consider:
http://geology.com/articles/methane-hydrates/

During an Ice age, sea level drops by several hundred meters, which would move some of the seafloor hydrate deposits out of the stable range. That would cause methane releases from those deposits, and as we are commonly reminded, methane is a gas that has a greenhouse effect that is multiples of any that the CO2 the ecowhackos are having fits about.

In the past, some of the relief from Ice Ages can be laid on insolation, but with the higher albedo of widespread ice sheets, the additional mechanism of a greenhouse effect might be what keeps the planet from becoming an iceball. The CO2 curve is likely a result of cooling/warming and not a forcing factor--a symptom, not the cause. The accumulation of and release of those methane deposits based on ocean depth would be self limiting, in that beyond a certain drop in sea level, the deposits would be released, and that they would start to accumulate once sea level rose again, limiting the amount of warming that occurred.
My guess is that they are part of the planetary 'thermostat'.

Perhaps, but said Ice Age is also likely to significantly move that chart due to the drops in temperature along with the drops in water level.

Part of the challenges with the inland Methane Hydrates was getting the ice to release the gas.  Just exposing a path to the surface was not a sole method of production.

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Online Smokin Joe

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Re: No Peak Oil For America Or The World
« Reply #18 on: March 07, 2017, 05:06:43 pm »
Perhaps, but said Ice Age is also likely to significantly move that chart due to the drops in temperature along with the drops in water level.

Part of the challenges with the inland Methane Hydrates was getting the ice to release the gas.  Just exposing a path to the surface was not a sole method of production.
How cold is the water under the polar ice caps? Despite the 'extra' cold, the water remains within a temperature range which keeps it liquid. The more shallow the water depth, the more to the left (lower temperature) the curve, so as it gets colder (more water caught up in continental ice sheets), the lower the sea level, the lower the pressure, and instability of the Hydrates results.

Just a thought.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline thackney

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Re: No Peak Oil For America Or The World
« Reply #19 on: March 07, 2017, 05:19:33 pm »
How cold is the water under the polar ice caps? Despite the 'extra' cold, the water remains within a temperature range which keeps it liquid.

Isn't that a function of being under pressure from the ice & water above?
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Online Smokin Joe

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Re: No Peak Oil For America Or The World
« Reply #20 on: March 07, 2017, 05:56:05 pm »
Isn't that a function of being under pressure from the ice & water above?
Looking at this, You'd expect a maximum arctic thickness of about 20 ft. (5m). Yet the temperatures at Barrow, AK commonly reach -40 to -60. Twenty feet down the water is liquid. Salinity and movement have an effect, but pressure from overlying ice is likely not it.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2017, 06:21:10 pm by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline thackney

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Re: No Peak Oil For America Or The World
« Reply #21 on: March 07, 2017, 06:00:58 pm »
So that water is liquid under the ice due to heat source from below?  I think I am missing something.
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Online Smokin Joe

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Re: No Peak Oil For America Or The World
« Reply #22 on: March 07, 2017, 06:20:25 pm »
So that water is liquid under the ice due to heat source from below?  I think I am missing something.
I think so, too.
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/water-thermal-properties-d_162.html

One of the beauties of water is the amount of latent heat that water has to absorb or give off to make phase changes. (It is what makes it so effective for firefighting) That water circulates in ocean basins, but to freeze it has to give up enough latent heat to make the phase change. Some heat comes from submarine volcanism and heat flow (that may have been the culprit in a couple years of thinning Arctic sea ice), but that ocean has never frozen solid in the time we have been keeping records, nor are there indicators that it ever did so.
 The pressure exerted by 5 m of sea ice would actually be less than that exerted by the same depth of seawater (the ice excludes brine and is less dense), so that probably isn't a factor in keeping the water below the ice liquid with the exception of functioning as insulation from atmospheric temperatures.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline thackney

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Re: No Peak Oil For America Or The World
« Reply #23 on: March 07, 2017, 06:58:16 pm »
I think so, too.
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/water-thermal-properties-d_162.html

One of the beauties of water is the amount of latent heat that water has to absorb or give off to make phase changes. (It is what makes it so effective for firefighting) That water circulates in ocean basins, but to freeze it has to give up enough latent heat to make the phase change. Some heat comes from submarine volcanism and heat flow (that may have been the culprit in a couple years of thinning Arctic sea ice), but that ocean has never frozen solid in the time we have been keeping records, nor are there indicators that it ever did so.
 The pressure exerted by 5 m of sea ice would actually be less than that exerted by the same depth of seawater (the ice excludes brine and is less dense), so that probably isn't a factor in keeping the water below the ice liquid with the exception of functioning as insulation from atmospheric temperatures.

So like the active layer on top of the permafrost, it is the cycle of time from cooling winter to warming summer that makes the difference.  There is too much mass of water to lose enough heat to freeze the arctic waters solid during the winter before the cycle of heating begins and melting goes on to summer.

During the ice age, the warming period is far smaller and the cooling is deeper and longer.  Perhaps I'm too focused on the Arctic but this seems to prevent the release of more methane from hydrates.  We found on the north slope that molecular structure is rather stable, trapping the methane and taking significant energy input to collapse the lattice.
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Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: No Peak Oil For America Or The World
« Reply #24 on: March 07, 2017, 07:39:40 pm »
All this romance of hydrates is so warm and mushy I hate to interfere, but, placing my engineer cap back on, to date there is no production of this anywhere in the world and will likely not be for quite some time.

An esoteric dialogue, as Dr. Cooper would say, and not practical at least until the day we are all on this thread in the ground and quite cold.
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington