Author Topic: Different State, Same Result: Washington court rules against Christian florist in gay wedding case  (Read 12478 times)

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Offline Smokin Joe

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"Most likely"?   How do you know that?   I'd say it was more likely the florist was making a political statement at the expense of his customer and the customer, offended,  decided to hit back by asserting his legal rights.   
POLITICAL STATEMENT?

We're talking religious belief here, not politics.
The politics got involved when the politicians were used to force someone to do something they found religiously offensive.
From the article, the shop had sold homosexuals flowers before, but would not do so for a homosexual "wedding".
That the very idea of a homosexual wedding is a perversion of the Biblical idea of marriage seems to evade you, which makes me wonder what your understanding of Christianity is.
This is something (the refusal to provide the service) that may be done without malice, just refusal. However going to court to force someone to go against their religious beliefs reeks of malice that cuts to the core. The issue wasn't one of whether they would sell flowers to homosexuals, it was one of whether they would materially participate in a service they found to be unacceptable in the eyes of their God. WHat greater discourtesy than to take them to court or fine them for not doing so.
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But I don't know the details of the interaction any more than (I presume) you do.    So what's wrong with old fashioned notions of courtesy and fair play?   For the business owner, show respect for your customers by providing the services you hold yourself out as providing.   For the customer, respect the business owner - including his religious sensibilities - and don't demand a service the business owner doesn't offer to provide.   
We are going to disagree. At what point did the business owner offer to provide flowers for homosexual civil union ceremonies?
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Offline Smokin Joe

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  And thats exactly what the homosexual militants and their militant supporters want. Now they are into the next phase - dehumanizing anyone that refuses to accept the pink fascism as hateful bigots. Incrementalism strikes again.

And on a nominally right wing website no less.
The whole dehumanization thing is commonly used as an excuse to treat another group as 'subhumans', prior to eliminating them. I would not be surprised if the Gaystapo are out to 'get paybacks' on Christians because the Christian faith has seen homosexuality as an abomination in the eyes of God for two thousand years.

What they don't understand, is that even if they succeed in silencing the last voice of protest, their sin will still be an abomination in the eyes of God. Perhaps that's why they are so angry.

Leviticus 20:13
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If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.

or Leviticus 18:22
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Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.


Of all the cities in the Bible, which have not been positively identified archaeologically? Two come to mind.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2017, 05:18:00 am by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline INVAR

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What they don't understand, is that even if they succeed in silencing the last voice of protest, their sin will still be an abomination in the eyes of God. Perhaps that's why they are so angry.

Leviticus 20:13
or Leviticus 18:22

Of all the cities in the Bible, which have not been positively identified archaeologically? Two come to mind.

Let us be brutally honest,  they do not believe in God, or His Word.  Even those that might pay lip service to acknowledging God, they have their own image of who and what He is.  The plain words of scripture, are discarded as just a mythic fairy tale of allegories and poems about the human condition.  At best they pick and choose the sweet and nice things they like from the biblical buffet table. The rest is just garbage to them.

They do not want to believe in a Creator who condemns their behavior, and who wiped out two cities from the face of the earth because of rampant sexual abomination and immorality.

They are not moved or fearful of Him who can destroy both body and spirit in Gehenna.  They are angry, because they hate Him who condemns their behavior and those in this flesh who agree with His Word.
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Offline Jazzhead

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POLITICAL STATEMENT?

We're talking religious belief here, not politics.

I don't believe that, SJ.   A gay wedding is not a religious wedding.   It is a purely civil contract,  and in the eyes of God its celebration is no different than the celebration of a birthday.

I believe the florist's motivation is animus toward homosexuals that may well have its genesis in what she believes the Bible says.   But lots of good Christians don't bully gays about their abominableness.   Some will even welcome their neighbors and extend them respect and the hand of friendship.

If this florist says she sells flowers for weddings,  then she should stop acting like a jerk and serve her customers.   

All she really needs to do,  I'd think,  is advertise that she sells flowers for religious weddings only.    There - a perfectly reasonable solution that avoids lawyers, not to mention folks like me labelled as tyrants and haters of Christians.

« Last Edit: February 20, 2017, 04:55:24 pm by Jazzhead »
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No, she should not be financially destroyed.   But she should serve her customers. Sometimes one person's right bumps up against another's.  $1,000 bucks represents a fair award,  IMO.  You and she are free to disagree.

@Jazzhead

She shouldn't be financially destroyed, but it happened.  The same thing happens in a number of these cases because that is the objective. 

When you say, "She shouldn't be destroyed, but---" are you implying that financial destruction as a result of not baking a cake is justified?

You're right.  When the rights of two individuals conflict, the right to freely practice one's religion and make a living for oneself trump the right to a damned cake, when the latter can get the cake somewhere else.

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"Most likely"?   How do you know that?   I'd say it was more likely the florist was making a political statement at the expense of his customer and the customer, offended,  decided to hit back by asserting his legal rights. 

@Jazzhead

Even though you have no basis for that assumption, I'll ask:  do you think that's true in the rest of the cases of this type? 

This woman had an established gay clientele.  She could have made a political statement at any time by refusing to serve any of them, but she had no problem doing so.

Do you think it's fair to say that you have a personal contempt for Christianity?

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I don't believe that, SJ.   A gay wedding is not a religious wedding.   It is a purely civil contract,  and in the eyes of God its celebration is no different than the celebration of a birthday.

@Jazzhead

I thought you said you didn't presume to know the mind of God. 

Yet you're claiming that, despite the Bible's repeated and strongly worded admonitions against homosexuality, He'll turn a blind eye if we wink at Him and say, "Hey, it was only a civil ceremony."

There's no Scriptural basis for that, which is, in the end, the only relevant basis.

Offline Jazzhead

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@Jazzhead

She shouldn't be financially destroyed, but it happened.  The same thing happens in a number of these cases because that is the objective. 

When you say, "She shouldn't be destroyed, but---" are you implying that financial destruction as a result of not baking a cake is justified?

   No, I am not implying anything other than what I said directly -  she should not be financially destroyed.   This $1,000 fine strikes me as fair,  not the ruinous fines I've seen in other cases.   

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You're right.  When the rights of two individuals conflict, the right to freely practice one's religion and make a living for oneself trump the right to a damned cake, when the latter can get the cake somewhere else.

Well, like I said above,  she should simply limit her business to catering religious weddings.   So long as her customers know that her services are so limited,  that should take care of the conflict to the satisfaction of all.   
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@Jazzhead


 
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  No, I am not implying anything other than what I said directly -  she should not be financially destroyed.   This $1,000 fine strikes me as fair,  not the ruinous fines I've seen in other cases.   

So the going rate to freely practice one's religion and earn a living at the same time is a thousand bucks.  Okay.

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Well, like I said above,  she should simply limit her business to catering religious weddings.   So long as her customers know that her services are so limited,  that should take care of the conflict to the satisfaction of all.   

Pretty sure you know she couldn't earn a living from religious weddings only. But hey, she deserves it, right?

By the way, did you watch the videos I posted where Steven Crowder asked Muslim bakeries to make a wedding cake for him and his "boyfriend?"  They refused (and they had the right to do so).  But only a couple of right-oriented publications picked up the story; the rest of the media ignored it.  Why do you think that happened?
« Last Edit: February 20, 2017, 05:27:32 pm by CatherineofAragon »

Offline Free Vulcan

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I don't believe that, SJ.   A gay wedding is not a religious wedding.   It is a purely civil contract,  and in the eyes of God its celebration is no different than the celebration of a birthday.

I believe the florist's motivation is animus toward homosexuals that may well have its genesis in what she believes the Bible says.   But lots of good Christians don't bully gays about their abominableness.   Some will even welcome their neighbors and extend them respect and the hand of friendship.

If this florist says she sells flowers for weddings,  then she should stop acting like a jerk and serve her customers.   

All she really needs to do,  I'd think,  is advertise that she sells flowers for religious weddings only.    There - a perfectly reasonable solution that avoids lawyers, not to mention folks like me labelled as tyrants and haters of Christians.

Then if it is a purely civil contract, let them go do the justice of the peace. They don't require, and aren't entitled to, the rest of the trappings, as it doesn't seem that they are central to their religious beliefs. They are bullying the florist to provide something that they don't inherently need. I'd say her religious convictions trump their whims and desires.

The rest of your argument is nothing but ad hominem skeptic projection. Slanting, slandering, skewing, shadiing and suspicioning her motives and actions and person has nothing to do with the argument at hand. If you want to do that, lets look at the same with the gay couple.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2017, 07:04:58 pm by Free Vulcan »
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Offline INVAR

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A gay wedding is not a religious wedding.   It is a purely civil contract,

NO IT'S NOT.    "WEDDING" is another word for matrimony or marriage.  "Wedding' is strictly religious.  "Wedded" is to be joined together man and woman as one flesh - as both the Old Testament AND Jesus quoted and affirmed.

Your efforts to redefine it to justify an abomination, makes desolate the entire institution as God intended and created it.

A civil contract is covered under the term 'civil union' - but that is not what you or the Homosexual Agenda are willing to be limited to.  See Free Vulcan's reply above.

and in the eyes of God its celebration is no different than the celebration of a birthday.

For someone who made a huge deal about not having the hubris to say they know the mind of God - you certainly are the hypocrite.

But since you state that celebrating homosexuality is perfectly okay in the eyes of God - I want to know where you get that blasphemy from, if not from your own sick, perverted mind?

Go, show us in the pages of scripture where God says celebrating homosexuality is the same as celebrating a birthday.  I want to see it.  Show us.

I believe the florist's motivation is animus toward homosexuals that may well have its genesis in what she believes the Bible says.

By that reckoning, none of us should have animus towards practicing serial murderers, rapists and kidnappers because that too has genesis from the bible.  We should not bully murderers and extortionists about their abominableness.  We should welcome unrepentant rapists and murderers into our neighborhoods and extend them respect and the hand of friendship, offering our sons and daughters to their altars in the process.

That is how patently absurd your statement is.

If this florist says she sells flowers for weddings,  then she should stop acting like a jerk and serve her customers.

She has an inalienable right to refuse service to anyone of her choosing for any reason.   

All she really needs to do,  I'd think,  is advertise that she sells flowers for religious weddings only. 

And you would be front and center to shout and condemn the business as bigoted, discriminatory and deserving of having it's business license pulled.

There - a perfectly reasonable solution that avoids lawyers, not to mention folks like me labelled as tyrants and haters of Christians.

Because your own words reveal you to be exactly that.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2017, 06:25:09 pm by INVAR »
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Offline Idiot

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I don't believe that, SJ.   A gay wedding is not a religious wedding.  It is a purely civil contract,  and in the eyes of God its celebration is no different than the celebration of a birthday.

I believe the florist's motivation is animus toward homosexuals that may well have its genesis in what she believes the Bible says.   But lots of good Christians don't bully gays about their abominableness.   Some will even welcome their neighbors and extend them respect and the hand of friendship.

If this florist says she sells flowers for weddings,  then she should stop acting like a jerk and serve her customers.   

All she really needs to do,  I'd think,  is advertise that she sells flowers for religious weddings only.    There - a perfectly reasonable solution that avoids lawyers, not to mention folks like me labelled as tyrants and haters of Christians.
Good grief man....open your Bible and read it!  It's an abomination to God.  God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah because of it.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2017, 03:09:04 am by mrpotatohead »

Offline INVAR

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Good grief man....open you Bible and read it!  It's an abomination to God.  God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah because of it.

He doesn't believe in the God of the bible.

He believes in the god of his own imagination, as his continuing testimony of his biblical illiteracy proves.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline Smokin Joe

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I don't believe that, SJ.   A gay wedding is not a religious wedding.   It is a purely civil contract,  and in the eyes of God its celebration is no different than the celebration of a birthday.
By what intricate contortion of logic do you equate that which is natural  (birth generally a cause for joy in the Bible) and necessary to the procreation of the species to that which is the 'celebration' of legally binding two homosexuals in a relationship God considers "abomination", acts both unnatural and which cannot lead to progeny?
What you don't want to admit is that regardless of whether the participants consider the "gay wedding" of great religious significance or like getting their teeth cleaned, in this case, the people you would force to provide services or be penalized are the ones whose viewpoints matter. Obviously the persons engaging in the act don't have any objections, it is those providing the service whose objections to participation, however peripherally, in something they consider a mockery of a sacrament and which their God has, again, clearly expressed His displeasure toward, whose opinions and beliefs matter.
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I believe the florist's motivation is animus toward homosexuals that may well have its genesis in what she believes the Bible says.   But lots of good Christians don't bully gays about their abominableness.   Some will even welcome their neighbors and extend them respect and the hand of friendship.
Wow. First off, I can't know their animus, should such even exist. Have you never simply refused to participate in something you found offensive? There is no bullying involving gays, here, except gays bullying Christians into providing a service for an act they have a moral objection to, or punishing them for not doing so.
These florists haven't refused to do business with the gays, it isn't a hatred thing, it is just this one ceremonial act they refuse to have ANY part in.
You assume an animus toward people that exists for the act, and now would extend the penumbra of 'bullying' to include nonparticipation.
Do you see where that is going?... first state enforced "tolerance", now state enforced participation? What's next?  You literally want people to be forced to cater to something they find offensive on religious grounds.
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If this florist says she sells flowers for weddings,  then she should stop acting like a jerk and serve her customers.   
"Jerk"? It is the owner's shop. The owner should be able to decide who they will and won't do business with, or the circumstances under which they will engage in trade, for whatever reason they choose. If the marketplace (the base of customers in that area) find that offensive, she will go out of business or do poorly. If not, she may prosper. It is no business of the State. However, I think there is a responsibility on the part of customers to not ask that which they know the shop owner might find offensive. I wouldn't go to a Kosher or Halal butcher and demand they butcher my hog, for instance--and then sue if they didn't.
You speak of decency, where is the respect for the religious belief of the owners of the shop?
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All she really needs to do,  I'd think,  is advertise that she sells flowers for religious weddings only.    There - a perfectly reasonable solution that avoids lawyers, not to mention folks like me labelled as tyrants and haters of Christians.
That would never work, and you know it. All they need is a gay pastor from some progressive 'church', and the whole thing is in motion again, with the lawyers tapped into the vein--not to mention atheists who might find their heterosexual nonreligious civil union excluded--and would sue, too.
If they advertised for "heterosexual weddings only" we know where that would go--the same court to be decreed offensive to the same protected class.
What you have effectively embraced is the owners own the business but the State decides who they will do business with. That's fascism, plain and simple.

« Last Edit: February 20, 2017, 08:50:17 pm by Smokin Joe »
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Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Jazzhead

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Then if it is a purely civil contract, let them go do the justice of the peace. They don't require, and aren't entitled to, the rest of the trappings, as it doesn't seem that they are central to their religious beliefs. They are bullying the florist to provide something that they don't inherently need. I'd say her religious convictions trump their whims and desires.


It's the florist who sets the rules, who decides what she'll sell or not sell.   A kosher butcher, for example, won't sell pork, and no customer has any right to demand he sell pork. 

Here, the florist says she'll sell flowers for weddings.   It's what she advertises to the general public, and no doubt she makes a handsome profit.  A member of the public enters her store and requests the service she provides.   The florist refuses, for entirely arbitrary reasons,  and it's the customer who's the bully?    That's bass-ackwards, sir.   Let the florist limit her services (and her profits) to religious weddings,  if her religious scruples won't let her treat her customers with basic fairness.   
« Last Edit: February 21, 2017, 01:50:18 pm by Jazzhead »
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Let the florist limit her services (and her profits) to religious weddings,  if her religious scruples won't let her treat her customers with basic fairness.

She doesn't need to, by your own logic.

Gay marriage is a purely social contract, right?

The words marriage and wedding have a history longer than most countries have existed of being religious ceremonies.

Therefore a wedding is, by common understanding, a religious ceremony. No need to specify - she's a florist, not a jurist and therefore not expected to use words outside of their most common interpretations.
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Offline Smokin Joe

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It's the florist who sets the rules, who decides what she'll sell or not sell.   A kosher butcher, for example, won't sell pork, and no customer has any right to demand he sell pork. 

Here, the florist says she'll sell flowers for weddings.   It's what she advertises to the general public, and no doubt she makes a handsome profit.  A member of the public enters her store and requests the service she provides.   The florist refuses, for entirely arbitrary reasons,  and it's the customer who's the bully?    That's bass-ackwards, sir.   Let the florist limit her services (and her profits) to religious weddings,  if her religious scruples won't let her treat her customers with basic fairness.
It's her business.
Her religious beliefs do not recognize marriage between two people of the same sex. Period.
Who are you to dictate you have some supremacy over her relationship with her God, over her religious beliefs?
What profits one who loses their soul?
Who are you to arbitrarily dictate who she will or will not serve?
What gives you the right?
You have none, and to assume it is tyranny.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Jazzhead

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She doesn't need to, by your own logic.

Gay marriage is a purely social contract, right?

The words marriage and wedding have a history longer than most countries have existed of being religious ceremonies.  Therefore a wedding is, by common understanding, a religious ceremony 

Not true, by tradition or otherwise.   Almost 40 years ago Mrs. Jazz and I were married by a judge;  God may disapprove that we took no religious vows, but it's not the concern of religious busybodies.   

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No need to specify - she's a florist, not a jurist and therefore not expected to use words outside of their most common interpretations.

If the florist wants to profit from a wedding, she should sell flowers not only for your wedding but for my secular one as well.   If she wants to deny me (or my gay neighbors) flowers,  then she should specify that she limits her business to religious ceremonies.   
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Offline Free Vulcan

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It's the florist who sets the rules, who decides what she'll sell or not sell.   A kosher butcher, for example, won't sell pork, and no customer has any right to demand he sell pork. 

Here, the florist says she'll sell flowers for weddings.   It's what she advertises to the general public, and no doubt she makes a handsome profit.  A member of the public enters her store and requests the service she provides.   The florist refuses, for entirely arbitrary reasons,  and it's the customer who's the bully?    That's bass-ackwards, sir.   Let the florist limit her services (and her profits) to religious weddings,  if her religious scruples won't let her treat her customers with basic fairness.

I see what you're saying, but unfortunately I imagine the gay lobby will win in court even if it were done that way. I wish it were different.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2017, 03:13:01 pm by Free Vulcan »
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Offline Jazzhead

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I see what you're saying, but unfortunately I imagine the gay lobby will win in court even if it were done that way. I wish it were different.

Litigation sometimes leads to bad results, it is true.  But I'd defend the right of a florist to limit her services only to religious wedding ceremonies, even if the impact of such limitation is to refuse service to a gay couple.     
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Good grief man....open your Bible and read it!  It's an abomination to God.  God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah because of it.

That was the Old Testament. It also says they should be put to death. 

How do we know that the execution part no longer applies, but the first part does?  Are you saying the New Testament changed punishments but not sins?  If so, then was it not sinful to eat pork?

I'm sorry for my cluelessness...these are serious questions.
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That was the Old Testament. It also says they should be put to death. 

How do we know that the execution part no longer applies, but the first part does?  Are you saying the New Testament changed punishments but not sins?  If so, then was it not sinful to eat pork?

I'm sorry for my cluelessness...these are serious questions.

I like these kinds of questions, and it is not cluelessness on your part to ask.  Lots of traditions and misunderstanding have obscured or clouded God's intents and statutes.

Sin is anything contrary to God's nature and His Laws, which are actually given so that we might life a blessed life and put on His mind that we might inherit eternity.  All misery and suffering is the result of mankind rejecting both God and His Laws and making himself god in his own eyes and determining justice based on his own human reasoning.

Understand that God established a theocracy for Ancient Israel when He brought them out of Egypt.  It was a covenant agreement Israel had agreed to upon God's promise to deliver them to the Promised Land.  As such, God was specific that His Laws were to be strictly obeyed, and deviance from some of them were punishable by death. The reason for that is as the Apostle Paul tells us in Galatians 5:9, a little leaven, leavens the entire loaf - in regards to sin.  God wanted His nation to understand that the penalty for some sins was extreme, and ultimately all sin leads to death anyway and God was giving a physical example to a larger spiritual truth.

In the New Covenant - the penalty for sin is still death (spiritually), but we now have an Advocate and our sins upon repentance are washed via the willing sacrifice made in our place by Jesus.  God simply set aside the penalty for sin, which is still earned every time we sin, but upon repentance and coming under the blood of the One Salvation, we are washed and that sin's penalty is no longer imputed to us.  It is a constant process of overcoming and putting on the mind of God in every aspect of our lives.

Since Ancient Israel no longer exists because they refused to abide the covenant they made with God, the physical death penalty under that theocracy no longer applies.  There is no more nation under that covenant.  We have a New Covenant, one made by the Blood of Him who made us.

The woman caught in Adultery and brought to Jesus is often cited as proof that sin itself has been done away with - but that is a deception.  The Pharisees who sought to stone her for being caught in adultery were attempting to assert their authority before Jesus and entrap Him into breaking 'the law'.  The fact only the woman was brought before Him, and not the man also as the scripture commands (both are to be put to death), it was a trap and bogus to begin with.  Jesus did not set aside the Law, He simply told them that whomever among them was without sin, to throw the first stone at her.  As they stepped up, Jesus was writing their sins in the sand.  None remained to do the deed, and Jesus said to the woman that He did not condemn her to death - and TO GO AND SIN NO MORE.  For if she was caught again and Jesus was not around - it is likely she was stoned as the law provided.

Both parts of the Law actually still apply.  Every man born dies, and if unrepentant and not under the blood of Christ - earns eternal death as scripture tells us in Romans 6:23.

The only difference today is that there is no longer a physical theocratic civil government under the God of the Bible.  We have a spiritual one instead.



Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline EC

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Thank you for that, @INVAR

About the neatest summary I've seen in years.  :beer:
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Offline Bigun

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I like these kinds of questions, and it is not cluelessness on your part to ask.  Lots of traditions and misunderstanding have obscured or clouded God's intents and statutes.

Sin is anything contrary to God's nature and His Laws, which are actually given so that we might life a blessed life and put on His mind that we might inherit eternity.  All misery and suffering is the result of mankind rejecting both God and His Laws and making himself god in his own eyes and determining justice based on his own human reasoning.

Understand that God established a theocracy for Ancient Israel when He brought them out of Egypt.  It was a covenant agreement Israel had agreed to upon God's promise to deliver them to the Promised Land.  As such, God was specific that His Laws were to be strictly obeyed, and deviance from some of them were punishable by death. The reason for that is as the Apostle Paul tells us in Galatians 5:9, a little leaven, leavens the entire loaf - in regards to sin.  God wanted His nation to understand that the penalty for some sins was extreme, and ultimately all sin leads to death anyway and God was giving a physical example to a larger spiritual truth.

In the New Covenant - the penalty for sin is still death (spiritually), but we now have an Advocate and our sins upon repentance are washed via the willing sacrifice made in our place by Jesus.  God simply set aside the penalty for sin, which is still earned every time we sin, but upon repentance and coming under the blood of the One Salvation, we are washed and that sin's penalty is no longer imputed to us.  It is a constant process of overcoming and putting on the mind of God in every aspect of our lives.

Since Ancient Israel no longer exists because they refused to abide the covenant they made with God, the physical death penalty under that theocracy no longer applies.  There is no more nation under that covenant.  We have a New Covenant, one made by the Blood of Him who made us.

The woman caught in Adultery and brought to Jesus is often cited as proof that sin itself has been done away with - but that is a deception.  The Pharisees who sought to stone her for being caught in adultery were attempting to assert their authority before Jesus and entrap Him into breaking 'the law'.  The fact only the woman was brought before Him, and not the man also as the scripture commands (both are to be put to death), it was a trap and bogus to begin with.  Jesus did not set aside the Law, He simply told them that whomever among them was without sin, to throw the first stone at her.  As they stepped up, Jesus was writing their sins in the sand.  None remained to do the deed, and Jesus said to the woman that He did not condemn her to death - and TO GO AND SIN NO MORE.  For if she was caught again and Jesus was not around - it is likely she was stoned as the law provided.

Both parts of the Law actually still apply.  Every man born dies, and if unrepentant and not under the blood of Christ - earns eternal death as scripture tells us in Romans 6:23.

The only difference today is that there is no longer a physical theocratic civil government under the God of the Bible.  We have a spiritual one instead.

The simple FACT is that God's laws are immutable! They do not change and those Churches that alter their doctrine in order to appease the membership err greatly IMHO.
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Offline INVAR

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The simple FACT is that God's laws are immutable! They do not change and those Churches that alter their doctrine in order to appease the membership err greatly IMHO.

Absolutely.

But we are dealing with folks who do not accept that or believe that for one reason or another.

Mankind has an urgent proclivity to make god into their own image, because they do not like Him as He is and have their own appetites and opinions to sate.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775