Author Topic: NASA, heeding Trump, may add astronauts to a test flight moon mission  (Read 2451 times)

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Offline kevindavis007

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President Trump has indicated that he wants to make a splash in space. During his transition, he spoke with historian Douglas Brinkley about John F. Kennedy's famous 1961 vow to go to the moon before the decade was out. Now Trump and his aides may do something very similar: demand that NASA send astronauts to orbit the moon before the end of Trump's first term — a move that one Trump adviser said would be a clear signal to the Chinese that the U.S. intends to retain dominance in space.


NASA already has a plan to launch its new, jumbo Space Launch System (SLS) rocket with an Orion capsule on top in late 2018, a mission known as EM-1. No one would be aboard. The capsule would orbit the moon and return to Earth, splashing down in the ocean.


This is intended as the first test flight of SLS and part of the integration of the new rocket and new capsule. Significantly, the SLS and Orion are both still under construction.


According to current plans, a crewed mission, EM-2, would not be launched until several years later under the NASA timeline — certainly not during Trump's current term. That crewed mission would also orbit the moon.


But on Wednesday, NASA's acting administrator, Robert Lightfoot, sent a letter to employees saying he'd instructed the top NASA official for human spaceflight, associate administrator William Gerstenmaier, to explore the feasibility of adding astronauts to the EM-1 flight.


Lightfoot wrote: “I know the challenges associated with such a proposition, like reviewing the technical feasibility, additional resources needed, and clearly the extra work would require a different launch date. That said, I also want to hear about the opportunities it could present to accelerate the effort of the first crewed flight and what it would take to accomplish that first step of pushing humans farther into space.”


This is, by NASA standards, a bombshell announcement, because major missions involving new hardware and astronauts are typically planned many years in advance. Rush jobs are not NASA's way.


At the same time, NASA officials and space policy experts understand that Trump wants to do something dramatic. Scott Pace, head of the Space Policy Institute at George Washington University, said earlier this week, “There is strong interest in finding significant near-term accomplishments that can be done in the first term.”


Bob Walker, an adviser to the Trump transition team and a former congressman who chaired the House Science Committee, said Tuesday: “What I hear being discussed is the potential for sometime within the first Trump term being able to go and do an Apollo 8 mission" -- meaning a lunar orbit mission like the one performed by Apollo 8 in December 1968.


“This would be another precursor to ultimately landing. And I think sometime within a second Trump term, you could think about putting a landing vehicle on the moon,” Walker said.


“It's also a demonstration of our technological competence. At some point, I think the Chinese need to awaken to the fact that the U.S. does intend to maintain its pre-eminence in space. I can guarantee you that if we don’t go ahead and do a program like this, the Chinese are headed in that direction.”


But Walker did not say such a mission would necessarily have to use NASA's SLS rocket and Orion capsule. Entrepreneurial space companies, including Elon Musk's SpaceX and Jeffrey P. Bezos's Blue Origin, are planning their own heavy-lift rockets. (Bezos owns The Washington Post.)


Newt Gingrich, an influential adviser to Trump when it comes to space issues, is among those pushing for a more entrepreneurial space program. In an email to The Washington Post, Gingrich, who said he was on a trip to Antarctica, blasted NASA for becoming an agency that avoids risk, and said the space program should leverage the enthusiasm and money of the many billionaires interested in commercializing space.


“The key is to liberate space from government monopoly and maximize the inventive entrepreneurial spirit of the Wright brothers, Edison, Ford and other classic Americans,” Gingrich wrote. “Done properly we can be on the moon in President Trump's first term and orbiting Mars by the end of his second term.”


Read More: http://www.isn-news.net/2017/02/nasa-heeding-trump-may-add-astronauts.html
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Offline Cripplecreek

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Re: NASA, heeding Trump, may add astronauts to a test flight moon mission
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2017, 02:20:34 am »
I support it.

Oceander

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Re: NASA, heeding Trump, may add astronauts to a test flight moon mission
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2017, 02:23:54 am »
So he's going to blow a trillion dollars on infrastructure, now he wants to "make a splash" in space.  Where are we, the taxpayers, going to get all of the money Trump wants to spend?  We all complained when Obama set new spending/deficit records, and now Trump is teeing up to make Obama look like a punter.

Offline Elderberry

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Re: NASA, heeding Trump, may add astronauts to a test flight moon mission
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2017, 03:30:56 am »
When I was working the JSC MPCV(Orion) test plan for the EM-1/2 SDR, very few of the requirements were deferred to the EM-2 time frame. So it should be doable to have Astronauts on the EM-1 flight.

Offline EC

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Re: NASA, heeding Trump, may add astronauts to a test flight moon mission
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2017, 09:52:28 am »
When I was working the JSC MPCV(Orion) test plan for the EM-1/2 SDR, very few of the requirements were deferred to the EM-2 time frame. So it should be doable to have Astronauts on the EM-1 flight.

Good.

Seems a shame to send up a capsule which has functioning life support and not use that capability.
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Offline Elderberry

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Re: NASA, heeding Trump, may add astronauts to a test flight moon mission
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2017, 01:36:37 pm »
Lockheed Martin, NASA’s primary contractor for the Orion crew capsule, said that it will work with the space agency on determining if a crewed first mission is possible. "Lockheed Martin will support NASA on a study to determine the feasibility of flying a crew on Exploration Mission-1,” Allison Miller, a spokesperson for Lockheed Martin, said in a statement. “We’ll look at accelerating remaining crew system designs, as well as potential technical and schedule challenges and how to mitigate them."

However, safety experts and government investigators have been critical about the development of the SLS and Orion, arguing that the current schedule for the programs aren’t exactly reliable given NASA’s budget. Two reports from the Government Accountability Office last year cast doubt on NASA meeting its 2018 launch date for EM-1, arguing that both SLS and the ground systems needed to launch the vehicle may not be ready before then. Additionally, the GAO said it was concerned about the 2021 date set for the crewed flight EM-2, saying that NASA is accepting higher risk to meet that deadline. NASA has also set a second launch date for EM-2 in April of 2023, in case the 2021 launch date doesn’t pan out. However, the agency has maintained that it has an “aggressive” internal goal of meeting the 2021 date.

Meanwhile, an important piece of hardware is needed for the first crewed flight of the SLS. For EM-1, NASA intends to fly a configuration of SLS known as Block 1. It’s the smallest version of the rocket NASA intends to build that can loft 70 metric tons into lower Earth orbit. For the crewed EM-2 flight, NASA is planning to fly a larger variant of SLS called Block 1B. This version of the rocket is a bit larger and sports a more powerful second stage on top of the vehicle known as the Exploration Upper Stage. However, the Exploration Upper Stage hasn’t even been built yet so it’s unclear if it will be ready soon for EM-1. The design for the Exploration Upper Stage did pass a major review in January.

Ultimately, it remains unclear how NASA will pull this off. Such a goal would probably require bigger budgets for both SLS and Orion, and it could introduce more risk into the equation flying people on a rocket that’s never been flown before. Additionally, NASA will have to create a life-support system for EM-1, something the agency wasn’t expecting to do until EM-2. “It would definitely be a shift in how we do things,” one employee at NASA’s Johnson Space Center tells The Verge.

Lightfoot also used the memo to address the uncertainty surrounding NASA’s long-term plans, something that may have influenced today’s decision. The transition to the Trump administration has left NASA in a momentary vacuum. “There has been a lot of speculation in the public discourse about NASA being pulled in two directions,” he writes. It’s an apparent reference to the constant fight over whether NASA should continue with its plans to send humans to Mars in the 2030s or to redirect its resources toward a return to the Moon.

http://www.theverge.com/2017/2/15/14623572/nasa-space-launch-system-crewed-sls-flight-10-investigation

Offline Joe Wooten

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Re: NASA, heeding Trump, may add astronauts to a test flight moon mission
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2017, 01:43:49 pm »
Now, for an impertinent question....

NASA is making a really big deal about "man-rating" the Falcon 9, but intends to certify the SLS as "man-rated" on it's first launch? I know it is using the RS-25 engines from the shuttle, but the solid strap-ons are a new configuration. It seems to me that they need much more flight testing to be man-rated by the rules NASA is applying to SpaceX.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2017, 01:44:33 pm by Joe Wooten »

Offline Just_Victor

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Re: NASA, heeding Trump, may add astronauts to a test flight moon mission
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2017, 01:51:23 pm »
Now, for an impertinent question....

NASA is making a really big deal about "man-rating" the Falcon 9, but intends to certify the SLS as "man-rated" on it's first launch? I know it is using the RS-25 engines from the shuttle, but the solid strap-ons are a new configuration. It seems to me that they need much more flight testing to be man-rated by the rules NASA is applying to SpaceX.

It's not about being fair, it's an issue of confidence in the process.  NASA controls NASA's process but due to the SpaceX contract cannot make demands about how the work is done on the Falcon 9.

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Offline Joe Wooten

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Re: NASA, heeding Trump, may add astronauts to a test flight moon mission
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2017, 02:02:02 pm »
I was hoping you'd show and answer it....... :laugh:

Offline Just_Victor

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Re: NASA, heeding Trump, may add astronauts to a test flight moon mission
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2017, 02:09:40 pm »
I was hoping you'd show and answer it....... :laugh:

If SpaceX hadn't had their launch failures, NASA would probably be more lenient.  But the SpaceX contract was supposed of be a new way of doing business.  NASA is supposed to be hands off on the internal workings of the company, allowing them to find cheaper ways of doing things.  But sometime cheaper isn't better, as evidenced by splodin' rockets.
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Offline Elderberry

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Re: NASA, heeding Trump, may add astronauts to a test flight moon mission
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2017, 02:22:36 pm »
NASA Trying To Avoid Human-Rating Temporary Upper Stage

May 20, 2015 Frank Morring, Jr. | Aviation Week & Space Technology

Managers overseeing development of NASA’s heavy-lift Space Launch System (SLS) are awaiting the outcome of congressional appropriations action to learn if they will need to human-rate a temporary upper stage for the first flight of the Orion capsule with a crew inside. If the agency receives go-ahead funding for the planned Exploration Upper Stage (EUS), it will avoid spending about $150 million to human-rate what one NASA adviser called a “kludged” upper stage—the ...

http://aviationweek.com/space/nasa-trying-avoid-human-rating-temporary-upper-stage



Offline Cripplecreek

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Re: NASA, heeding Trump, may add astronauts to a test flight moon mission
« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2017, 02:31:32 pm »
If SpaceX hadn't had their launch failures, NASA would probably be more lenient.  But the SpaceX contract was supposed of be a new way of doing business.  NASA is supposed to be hands off on the internal workings of the company, allowing them to find cheaper ways of doing things.  But sometime cheaper isn't better, as evidenced by splodin' rockets.

I personally think NASA should have considerable say on manufacturing and NASA has every right to say "We won't put our astronauts on top of your rocket" so we don't have a situation like Apollo 1.

Apollo Spacecraft Program Office (ASPO) manager Joe Shea ended up taking most of the blame but he had raised concerns about the oxygen environment and recommended changes. Unfortunately NASA in those days was set up a bit differently and the changes weren't done for a test run. Earlier changes had been made out of a fear of fire like removing velcro tabs and nylon netting from the cabin.



It isn't that we don't trust you, Joe, but this time we've decided to go over your head.


Offline Just_Victor

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Re: NASA, heeding Trump, may add astronauts to a test flight moon mission
« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2017, 03:05:35 pm »
I personally think NASA should have considerable say on manufacturing and NASA has every right to say "We won't put our astronauts on top of your rocket" so we don't have a situation like Apollo 1.

Apollo Spacecraft Program Office (ASPO) manager Joe Shea ended up taking most of the blame but he had raised concerns about the oxygen environment and recommended changes. Unfortunately NASA in those days was set up a bit differently and the changes weren't done for a test run. Earlier changes had been made out of a fear of fire like removing velcro tabs and nylon netting from the cabin.



It isn't that we don't trust you, Joe, but this time we've decided to go over your head.

NASA isn't obligated to use the Falcon 9 if they have doubts.  But it's worth noting that if the SpaceX vehicle lives up to its billing, that represents an order of magnitude reduction in space flight costs ($10,000/lb. to <$1000/lb.).

Perhaps that's a big IF...
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Offline Cripplecreek

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Re: NASA, heeding Trump, may add astronauts to a test flight moon mission
« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2017, 03:17:45 pm »
NASA isn't obligated to use the Falcon 9 if they have doubts.  But it's worth noting that if the SpaceX vehicle lives up to its billing, that represents an order of magnitude reduction in space flight costs ($10,000/lb. to <$1000/lb.).

Perhaps that's a big IF...

I just want a balance of costs "low", chance of success high, and risks reasonable.

Offline Just_Victor

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Re: NASA, heeding Trump, may add astronauts to a test flight moon mission
« Reply #15 on: February 16, 2017, 03:25:39 pm »
I just want a balance of costs "low", chance of success high, and risks reasonable.

As do we all.  I don't like burying people I know / worked with / like.  Rated for human flight is a big deal to me.
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Offline r9etb

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Re: NASA, heeding Trump, may add astronauts to a test flight moon mission
« Reply #16 on: February 16, 2017, 03:28:32 pm »
NASA already has a plan to launch its new, jumbo Space Launch System (SLS) rocket with an Orion capsule on top in late 2018, a mission known as EM-1. No one would be aboard. The capsule would orbit the moon and return to Earth, splashing down in the ocean.
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But on Wednesday, NASA's acting administrator, Robert Lightfoot, sent a letter to employees saying he'd instructed the top NASA official for human spaceflight, associate administrator William Gerstenmaier, to explore the feasibility of adding astronauts to the EM-1 flight.

Filed under, "Alex, I'll take 'How to delay a mission by at least three years' for $1000."
« Last Edit: February 16, 2017, 03:28:52 pm by r9etb »

Offline Cripplecreek

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Re: NASA, heeding Trump, may add astronauts to a test flight moon mission
« Reply #17 on: February 16, 2017, 03:30:22 pm »
As do we all.  I don't like burying people I know / worked with / like.  Rated for human flight is a big deal to me.

This is a situation where I agree with Trump but don't want him involved more than encouraging and supporting it. Let the experts handle it from here.

Offline Just_Victor

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Re: NASA, heeding Trump, may add astronauts to a test flight moon mission
« Reply #18 on: February 16, 2017, 03:37:14 pm »
This is a situation where I agree with Trump but don't want him involved more than encouraging and supporting it. Let the experts handle it from here.

If "a fool and his money are soon parted," then Trump is no fool.

I suspect he knows when he is out of his league and needs to rely on expert opinions.
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Oceander

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Re: NASA, heeding Trump, may add astronauts to a test flight moon mission
« Reply #19 on: February 16, 2017, 05:38:22 pm »
If "a fool and his money are soon parted," then Trump is no fool.

I suspect he knows when he is out of his league and needs to rely on expert opinions.

Then Trump is a fool because he would have done better to have simply put the money he got from daddy in an index fund than he is now.  In other words, by relying on himself he is worse off than if he had relied on actual professionals.