Author Topic: Conservatives fret GOP is blowing Obamacare repeal  (Read 9623 times)

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Offline Norm Lenhart

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Re: Conservatives fret GOP is blowing Obamacare repeal
« Reply #25 on: February 14, 2017, 08:53:35 pm »

Normie, please see my signature, thank you.


Oh piss off you miserable old bastard.

Online Weird Tolkienish Figure

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Re: Conservatives fret GOP is blowing Obamacare repeal
« Reply #26 on: February 14, 2017, 09:00:39 pm »

Oh piss off you miserable old bastard.


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Offline Norm Lenhart

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Re: Conservatives fret GOP is blowing Obamacare repeal
« Reply #27 on: February 14, 2017, 09:02:03 pm »

Like it. Learn it. Love it.

Nah... I don't let rage-filled snowflakes such as yourself turn GBR into their own personal safe-space.

Offline INVAR

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Re: Conservatives fret GOP is blowing Obamacare repeal
« Reply #28 on: February 14, 2017, 09:36:28 pm »
I know full well the havoc obamacare is wrecking on people, believe me. I also know some people with pre-existing conditions who have been helped.

You're applauding the fact that the best healthcare system in the world was destroyed so as to supposedly provide 33 million people (mostly Illegals BTW) with access to health insurance, that failed spectacularly and made insurance for most Americans totally unaffordable and third-rate at best. Not to mention that the government is not paying their bills via Medicare to begin with, causing many doctors to refuse to accept Medicare patients.

I lost my surgeon and my doctor thanks to this miserable bullshiite act.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Online Bigun

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Re: Conservatives fret GOP is blowing Obamacare repeal
« Reply #29 on: February 14, 2017, 09:48:28 pm »
You're applauding the fact that the best healthcare system in the world was destroyed so as to supposedly provide 33 million people (mostly Illegals BTW) with access to health insurance, that failed spectacularly and made insurance for most Americans totally unaffordable and third-rate at best. Not to mention that the government is not paying their bills via Medicare to begin with, causing many doctors to refuse to accept Medicare patients.

I lost my surgeon and my doctor thanks to this miserable bullshiite act.

@INVAR

I have to correct you on one point here.  Obamacare did NOT fail!  It did EXACTLY what it was designed to do which is lay the groundwork for single payer, which is where they have always wanted to go, and the ONLY thing that has derailed that plan is the totally unexpected election of Donald J. Trump!
« Last Edit: February 14, 2017, 09:48:56 pm by Bigun »
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Silver Pines

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Re: Conservatives fret GOP is blowing Obamacare repeal
« Reply #30 on: February 14, 2017, 10:32:08 pm »
They better get on it.  Trump changed his tune and said it would take over a year, then Paul Ryan said, no, it will be done this year.

Repealing this mess should be put at the top of the priority list.

Silver Pines

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Re: Conservatives fret GOP is blowing Obamacare repeal
« Reply #31 on: February 14, 2017, 10:38:44 pm »
So you don't think the access problem is worth fixing?   The roots of the issue lie in the historical oddity that most of us get health coverage through our employers -  a situation that (i) harms those who lose their jobs and can't get coverage for pre-existing conditions, (ii)  harms employers by requiring them to run expensive health care plans and deal with all the regulation appurtenant thereto,  and (iii) harms American competitiveness by decreasing the mobility of American workers. 

The ACA - PROPERLY FIXED - can effectively address each of these problems.   So why not fix it?    The fixes are surprisingly simple.   

@Jazzhead


I have a sister-in-law and a good friend who are both nurses.  They will tell you that no one who comes to the ER is refused treatment.  They can't be refused.

My friend has told me personal stories about homeless men who fake illnesses to get rooms in the hospital.  They end up staying a month or two, and treating the nurses as their personal waitresses and handmaids, because it's against the law to get rid of them.

If someone doesn't want to go to the hospital, there are free clinics.  Remember them?

Silver Pines

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Re: Conservatives fret GOP is blowing Obamacare repeal
« Reply #32 on: February 14, 2017, 10:40:58 pm »
After leaving me near dead in an ICU with a crash cart at my bedside 2 years ago, Obamacare idiocy just managed to once again F' up my life and thoroughly screw up my ongoing medical treatment. So thanks to that idiocy, I am most likely about 3-5 days away from another visit to Club Health for another indeterminate stay at another 6 figure expense to insurers... unless they sort out the BS Obamacare paperwork...source of the woes.

So you can imagine how very much I appreciate the efforts of the thoroughly evil 'conservative' idiots here and elsewhere that want Obamacare to continue on, modified to make them 'feel good' , rather than abolishing that abortion of a program.

Come to think of it, they also seem to believe that must remain legal too. Imagine that.

@Norm Lenhart

I'm sorry you're going through that.  I hope you get everything sorted out.


Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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Re: Conservatives fret GOP is blowing Obamacare repeal
« Reply #33 on: February 14, 2017, 10:43:11 pm »
I can tell you this!  If they don't repeal every last word of it they are DONE!

People are sick TO DEATH of being lied to by politicians!
Yep.
“The way I see it, every time a man gets up in the morning he starts his life over. Sure, the bills are there to pay, and the job is there to do, but you don't have to stay in a pattern. You can always start over, saddle a fresh horse and take another trail.” ― Louis L'Amour

Offline skeeter

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Re: Conservatives fret GOP is blowing Obamacare repeal
« Reply #34 on: February 14, 2017, 10:44:18 pm »
@Jazzhead


I have a sister-in-law and a good friend who are both nurses.  They will tell you that no one who comes to the ER is refused treatment.  They can't be refused.

My friend has told me personal stories about homeless men who fake illnesses to get rooms in the hospital.  They end up staying a month or two, and treating the nurses as their personal waitresses and handmaids, because it's against the law to get rid of them.

If someone doesn't want to go to the hospital, there are free clinics.  Remember them?

There are dozens of state and federal programs predating ACA to ensure the poor receive healthcare.

Anyone who talks as though there were no coverage options for the poor prior to ACA is flat lying or ignorant beyond redemption.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2017, 10:47:26 pm by skeeter »

Offline Norm Lenhart

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Re: Conservatives fret GOP is blowing Obamacare repeal
« Reply #35 on: February 14, 2017, 10:44:49 pm »
@Norm Lenhart

I'm sorry you're going through that.  I hope you get everything sorted out.

I'll deal. Thanks in no part to the special snowflakes that want Obamacare forced on us all. I only hope they find themselves in the same circumstance someday so they can get a good taste of the evil they wanted for others.

Consider it my concern for the 'well being' of my fellow 'conservaties'.

Offline INVAR

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Re: Conservatives fret GOP is blowing Obamacare repeal
« Reply #36 on: February 14, 2017, 10:59:19 pm »
@INVAR

I have to correct you on one point here.  Obamacare did NOT fail!  It did EXACTLY what it was designed to do which is lay the groundwork for single payer, which is where they have always wanted to go, and the ONLY thing that has derailed that plan is the totally unexpected election of Donald J. Trump!

I mentioned that earlier.  I was rebutting the specific point regarding the pin-sized violins playing tragedy over those with pre-existing conditions being "helped".  That failed spectacularly in terms of one of ObamaCare's main "selling points".

You and I both agree and understand that ObamaCare was designed to collapse the entire system in on itself and force everyone to scream for Single Payer and total Government control of healthcare.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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Re: Conservatives fret GOP is blowing Obamacare repeal
« Reply #37 on: February 14, 2017, 11:06:52 pm »
@Jazzhead
Freedom is a perfectly valid replacement. Government is the problem not the solution.
“The way I see it, every time a man gets up in the morning he starts his life over. Sure, the bills are there to pay, and the job is there to do, but you don't have to stay in a pattern. You can always start over, saddle a fresh horse and take another trail.” ― Louis L'Amour

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Conservatives fret GOP is blowing Obamacare repeal
« Reply #38 on: February 15, 2017, 01:39:11 pm »
@Jazzhead
Freedom is a perfectly valid replacement. Government is the problem not the solution.

Freedom in the context of the insurance industry?   Government regulation of the insurance business goes back centuries; the states have traditionally prescribed rules for reserves and financial soundness.

The ACA was an attempt to provide for "guaranteed issue" insurance nationwide, to permit individuals with pre-existing health conditions to obtain insurance.   In the context of a private insurance market (as compared to a single payer approach funded by progressive taxation),  there's really only two viable approaches -  guaranteed issue insurance, which is what that ACA has attempted,  or  the government supervision of separate risk pools and insurance regimes for the already-sick.   The latter is awfully close to single payer funded by progressive taxation - albeit only for a portion of the population.

The guaranteed issue approach is inevitably more expensive unless the pool of younger, healthy folks is large enough to subsidize the provision of insurance to the sick.    That was the point of the individual mandate - to provide a tax disincentive to free ridership.    But the ACA was botched -  individual ACA-compliant insurance is too comprehensive, and too expensive (in large part because of ACA's 3 to 1 rule) for younger folks. 

The simple fix for the ACA is basically two-fold -  First,  provide far more choices in the individual marketplace,  including more flexibility for consumers to be able to purchase only the coverage they need, and for insurers to price insurance rationally based on experience, not favoritism of one group of Americans over another.   Second,  provide incentives for employers to send their employees to the ACA marketplace -  because that's where all the younger, healthier lives are.    The latter can be accomplished by changing a sentence or two in the law,  to allow employers to satisfy the employer mandate by providing cash (by means of health savings -type accounts) to their employees that they can use to purchase health insurance, including from the ACA marketplace.

     
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Oceander

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Re: Conservatives fret GOP is blowing Obamacare repeal
« Reply #39 on: February 15, 2017, 01:54:14 pm »
The ACA was botched in any number of different ways.  And it was also sold through willful confusion about the difference between owning an insurance policy and having useable coverage under that policy.  Most of the Obamacare policies are useless for the people they were intended to help because the deductibles are sky high and the network of doctors who accept it too limited.  It would be better to have required only major medical and hospitalization, which is significantly cheaper, and left everything else to the market and welfare for the destitute. 

We used to have an Obamacare policy that had a lower premium than the policy we had pre-Obamacare (before it became illegal), but when you factored in the substantially higher deductible and higher copays, we merely ended up with substantially fewer doctors but for the same price).

"Botched" is putting it lightly. 

geronl

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Re: Conservatives fret GOP is blowing Obamacare repeal
« Reply #40 on: February 15, 2017, 02:05:10 pm »
So you don't think the access problem is worth fixing?   The roots of the issue lie in the historical oddity that most of us get health coverage through our employers -   

Getting it through the government is not a fix.

Offline Sanguine

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Re: Conservatives fret GOP is blowing Obamacare repeal
« Reply #41 on: February 15, 2017, 02:06:35 pm »
Freedom in the context of the insurance industry?   Government regulation of the insurance business goes back centuries; the states have traditionally prescribed rules for reserves and financial soundness.

The ACA was an attempt to provide for "guaranteed issue" insurance nationwide, to permit individuals with pre-existing health conditions to obtain insurance.   In the context of a private insurance market (as compared to a single payer approach funded by progressive taxation),  there's really only two viable approaches -  guaranteed issue insurance, which is what that ACA has attempted,  or  the government supervision of separate risk pools and insurance regimes for the already-sick.   The latter is awfully close to single payer funded by progressive taxation - albeit only for a portion of the population.

The guaranteed issue approach is inevitably more expensive unless the pool of younger, healthy folks is large enough to subsidize the provision of insurance to the sick.    That was the point of the individual mandate - to provide a tax disincentive to free ridership.    But the ACA was botched -  individual ACA-compliant insurance is too comprehensive, and too expensive (in large part because of ACA's 3 to 1 rule) for younger folks. 

The simple fix for the ACA is basically two-fold -  First,  provide far more choices in the individual marketplace,  including more flexibility for consumers to be able to purchase only the coverage they need, and for insurers to price insurance rationally based on experience, not favoritism of one group of Americans over another.   Second,  provide incentives for employers to send their employees to the ACA marketplace -  because that's where all the younger, healthier lives are.    The latter can be accomplished by changing a sentence or two in the law,  to allow employers to satisfy the employer mandate by providing cash (by means of health savings -type accounts) to their employees that they can use to purchase health insurance, including from the ACA marketplace.

     

Interesting.  @Jazzhead, this could be accurately described as the anti-Conservative point of view.  And/or anti-Constitutional.  Very European though.

geronl

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Re: Conservatives fret GOP is blowing Obamacare repeal
« Reply #42 on: February 15, 2017, 02:08:14 pm »
Freedom in the context of the insurance industry?   Government regulation of the insurance business goes back centuries; the states have traditionally prescribed rules for reserves and financial soundness.

centuries!!

Health insurance was born in the 1920's when hospitals began allowing people to pre-pay for their medical costs. The first employer based health insurance was in 1929 for Dallas schoolteachers.

Online Bigun

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Re: Conservatives fret GOP is blowing Obamacare repeal
« Reply #43 on: February 15, 2017, 02:14:34 pm »
The ACA was botched in any number of different ways.  And it was also sold through willful confusion about the difference between owning an insurance policy and having useable coverage under that policy.  Most of the Obamacare policies are useless for the people they were intended to help because the deductibles are sky high and the network of doctors who accept it too limited.  It would be better to have required only major medical and hospitalization, which is significantly cheaper, and left everything else to the market and welfare for the destitute. 

We used to have an Obamacare policy that had a lower premium than the policy we had pre-Obamacare (before it became illegal), but when you factored in the substantially higher deductible and higher copays, we merely ended up with substantially fewer doctors but for the same price).

"Botched" is putting it lightly.

@Oceander

It was NOT botched at all! It is doing EXACTLY what it was designed to do and doing it well. It is preparing the soil for single payer which was the goal to begin with.  Luckily The totally unexpected election of Trump put at least a temporary crimp in the plan.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2017, 02:15:29 pm by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Conservatives fret GOP is blowing Obamacare repeal
« Reply #44 on: February 15, 2017, 02:21:48 pm »
Interesting.  @Jazzhead, this could be accurately described as the anti-Conservative point of view.  And/or anti-Constitutional.  Very European though.

No, we're making different assumptions about whether the access issue, in the context of our current employer-based system, needs to be addressed.   I say yes, you (apparently) say no.   Since I think the access issue is important, I support fixing the ACA rather than replacing it with single payer.  Since you don't care about the access issue,  you espouse "conservative" solutions that leave millions of Americans without insurance,  and leave hospitals in the lurch to absorb the cost of uncompensated care.   
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Offline Sanguine

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Re: Conservatives fret GOP is blowing Obamacare repeal
« Reply #45 on: February 15, 2017, 02:39:15 pm »
No, we're making different assumptions about whether the access issue, in the context of our current employer-based system, needs to be addressed.   I say yes, you (apparently) say no.   Since I think the access issue is important, I support fixing the ACA rather than replacing it with single payer.  Since you don't care about the access issue,  you espouse "conservative" solutions that leave millions of Americans without insurance,  and leave hospitals in the lurch to absorb the cost of uncompensated care.   

You're assuming quite a bit about what you think I think.

One thing I do think is that a legal background gives one the ability to express one's self clearly and to identify and attack weak points in another's argument.  One thing it does not do is give the ability to do solid, analytical thought.

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Conservatives fret GOP is blowing Obamacare repeal
« Reply #46 on: February 15, 2017, 02:42:10 pm »
centuries!!

Health insurance was born in the 1920's when hospitals began allowing people to pre-pay for their medical costs. The first employer based health insurance was in 1929 for Dallas schoolteachers.

The insurance business consists of more than health insurance.   Insurance has traditionally been regulated by the states - the first state insurance commission in the U.S. dates from 1851.    Here's a short primer from Wikipedia  
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Offline RetBobbyMI

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Re: Conservatives fret GOP is blowing Obamacare repeal
« Reply #47 on: February 15, 2017, 02:43:18 pm »
 Obamacare was nothing more than a massive government takeover of the medical insurance industry.  It was such a massive intertwined bill supported by way too many federal regulations, the only way to fix that is repeal the entire original bill. A simple one page bill.

If there is price fixing, gouging or collusion going on in the health care industry, including doctors and hospitals, there is plenty of existing law to prosecute them.
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Conservatives fret GOP is blowing Obamacare repeal
« Reply #48 on: February 15, 2017, 02:45:29 pm »
You're assuming quite a bit about what you think I think.

One thing I do think is that a legal background gives one the ability to express one's self clearly and to identify and attack weak points in another's argument.  One thing it does not do is give the ability to do solid, analytical thought.

So forgive me for making assumptions - how does labeling what I post as "anti-conservative" consist of "solid, analytical thought"?  .

 How do you propose to solve the access issue by "conservative" means?   
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Re: Conservatives fret GOP is blowing Obamacare repeal
« Reply #49 on: February 15, 2017, 03:23:34 pm »
Interesting.  @Jazzhead, this could be accurately described as the anti-Conservative point of view.  And/or anti-Constitutional.  Very European though.


Ah. You disagree with me therefor you're not conservative. That's typical.