Author Topic: Conservatives fret GOP is blowing Obamacare repeal  (Read 9611 times)

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geronl

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Re: Conservatives fret GOP is blowing Obamacare repeal
« Reply #150 on: February 16, 2017, 07:53:14 pm »
Susan Collins proposal is a step toward single-payer

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Conservatives fret GOP is blowing Obamacare repeal
« Reply #151 on: February 16, 2017, 07:59:56 pm »
You whine and cry just like a typical Liberal baby who cannot stand when anyone calls you out on your leftist argumentations.  Clearly did not read the rebuttal in reply 125.

He's a lecturer, not a listener.  Remind you of anybody?
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Conservatives fret GOP is blowing Obamacare repeal
« Reply #152 on: February 16, 2017, 08:09:15 pm »
Susan Collins proposal is a step toward single-payer

What is her proposal?   
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Conservatives fret GOP is blowing Obamacare repeal
« Reply #153 on: February 16, 2017, 08:12:01 pm »
You whine and cry just like a typical Liberal baby who cannot stand when anyone calls you out on your leftist argumentations.  Clearly did not read the rebuttal in reply 125.

I read it.  Didn't think it deserved a response and didn't want to insult you.     
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Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Conservatives fret GOP is blowing Obamacare repeal
« Reply #154 on: February 16, 2017, 08:25:29 pm »
I read it.  Didn't think it deserved a response and didn't want to insult you.     

@INVAR See what I mean?
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
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Offline INVAR

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Re: Conservatives fret GOP is blowing Obamacare repeal
« Reply #155 on: February 16, 2017, 08:58:47 pm »
@INVAR See what I mean?

It's how all Leftists disguised as "reasonable Conservatives" do when all they have is Democrat talking points to argue and spew to continue the illusion that they share the majority ideology.

He already outed himself as a big-government statist and Leftie.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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Re: Conservatives fret GOP is blowing Obamacare repeal
« Reply #156 on: February 16, 2017, 09:01:27 pm »
You guys do know you don't have to keep at it till a new mod is created or the thread gets locked right? Nor are logical arguments won by the person who can keep talking the longest.
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Offline INVAR

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Re: Conservatives fret GOP is blowing Obamacare repeal
« Reply #157 on: February 16, 2017, 09:12:46 pm »
From The Hill

 This is from a scholar at the American Enterprise Institute, and echoes some of what I've been saying about simple fixes for the ACA:

There is NO FIXING an Act that is Unaffordable by design and does not provide any care whatsoever to anyone.

It was designed for the sole purpose of collapsing the existing health insurance market in on itself and cause the public to scream for Single Payer, Government-Run total VA-inspired medical care.

There is NO FIXING it's intended purpose to do something it was NEVER INTENDED TO DO; such as getting young people to willingly sign up to pay premiums on something they see no need for.  Thus the mandate with penalty. 

Anyone pushing little 'fixes' to an Act intended to implement Single Payer is simply promulgating the fact that they believe government should be involved in running and overseeing all healthcare - from policy to practice.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline Weird Tolkienish Figure

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Re: Conservatives fret GOP is blowing Obamacare repeal
« Reply #158 on: February 16, 2017, 09:13:02 pm »
You guys do know you don't have to keep at it till a new mod is created or the thread gets locked right? Nor are logical arguments won by the person who can keep talking the longest.





http://www.flamewarriorsguide.com/warriorshtm/tirelessrebutter.htm


IMO (unqualified layperson) it's a mild form of OCD.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2017, 09:13:50 pm by Weird Tolkienish Figure »

Wingnut

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Re: Conservatives fret GOP is blowing Obamacare repeal
« Reply #159 on: February 16, 2017, 09:32:04 pm »
You guys do know you don't have to keep at it till a new mod is created or the thread gets locked right? Nor are logical arguments won by the person who can keep talking the longest.

MOD 1/2

Is the man/women for this job!

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Conservatives fret GOP is blowing Obamacare repeal
« Reply #160 on: February 17, 2017, 12:34:42 am »
I agree.   The ACA WAS a botched compromise, a compromise among leftist Dems and blue dog Dems.   The blue dogs wouldn't support single payer,  and signed on to a private sector approach that preserved the role of insurance companies within the framework of individual and employer mandates intended to broaden the pool of the insured.   But there was no serious attempt to control costs,  and "choice" with respect to policies on the exchanges was limited to the size of the deductibles and copays.   Meanwhile,  insurance companies were forbidden to price insurance according to the age-based risks involved,  and forced the young and healthy to pay more so the old and infirm could be charged less.   

And the young and healthy have stayed away, causing insurers to raise premiums and narrow provider networks.   

On the employer side,  the mandates have stifled employment growth by smaller employers,  and forced even the largest employers to raise the co-insurance they charge their employees.  Why?   Because group plans can no longer control costs by imposing reasonable annual and lifetime limits,  must cover a host of things for free (thereby spiking utilization), and must provide parity in benefits for mental illness.

The core structural change that needs to happen -and it will take time - is to divorce health coverage from employment.  Employers who don't have to run health care plans can use that money for higher wages and more jobs.   Some employers will want to run health plans to attract the best workers, but they shouldn't be forced to do so.    One simple fix, at least for the time being, would be to permit employers to satisfy the mandate by contributing $3,000 for each full-time employee to a health reimbursement account that the employee can use to purchase individual coverage from an ACA exchange.   Employers will prefer that to spending $8,000 per employee on a group health plan.   And the employees will bring their dollars and healthy lives to the exchanges,  allowing insurers to spread risks and lower costs. 

 
You can say this is a young/old thing, and to some degree I can't argue with that, but I though the purpose of the ACA was to pay for the poor lifestyle choices of those who were deemed uninsurable or high risk. I had fine insurance, and was plenty happy with it. The ACA kicked in and my insurance company quit writing policies, and stopped renewing them. They left the marketplace, leaving me, self employed and without insurance just as the downturn in oil prices impacted my industry. Nice.

After 20 years of carrying a policy, I have nothing, I have a history of skin cancer, but take no medications, have no heart condition, etc. I don't drink or smoke. I don't use drugs. But insurance even now is prohibitively expensive because there is only one carrier in the market here. I will teach my great grandchildren to spit at the mention of Obama.

In the meantime, healthy old folks and young folks, too, will be hammered with fines/fees/taxes for breathing in order to support the treatment of homosexuals with AIDS and drug addicts, while not being able to afford their own basic health care.

The system punishes those who live cleanly and rewards those who won't.
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Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

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Offline Weird Tolkienish Figure

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Re: Conservatives fret GOP is blowing Obamacare repeal
« Reply #161 on: February 17, 2017, 01:17:50 am »
You can say this is a young/old thing, and to some degree I can't argue with that, but I though the purpose of the ACA was to pay for the poor lifestyle choices of those who were deemed uninsurable or high risk. I had fine insurance, and was plenty happy with it. The ACA kicked in and my insurance company quit writing policies, and stopped renewing them. They left the marketplace, leaving me, self employed and without insurance just as the downturn in oil prices impacted my industry. Nice.

After 20 years of carrying a policy, I have nothing, I have a history of skin cancer, but take no medications, have no heart condition, etc. I don't drink or smoke. I don't use drugs. But insurance even now is prohibitively expensive because there is only one carrier in the market here. I will teach my great grandchildren to spit at the mention of Obama.

In the meantime, healthy old folks and young folks, too, will be hammered with fines/fees/taxes for breathing in order to support the treatment of homosexuals with AIDS and drug addicts, while not being able to afford their own basic health care.

The system punishes those who live cleanly and rewards those who won't.


That's terrible smokin joe. Hope things improve.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Conservatives fret GOP is blowing Obamacare repeal
« Reply #162 on: February 17, 2017, 02:23:18 am »

That's terrible smokin joe. Hope things improve.
They will. God provides, the Government gets greedy. Things will get better. After 40 years of oil patch, you know the cycle of boom and bust and live humbly in order to be able to keep it up.

When I consider the over $400K I paid in Federal Taxes during the last few boom years, though, it just ticks me off.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Conservatives fret GOP is blowing Obamacare repeal
« Reply #163 on: February 17, 2017, 03:04:07 am »
You can say this is a young/old thing, and to some degree I can't argue with that, but I though the purpose of the ACA was to pay for the poor lifestyle choices of those who were deemed uninsurable or high risk. I had fine insurance, and was plenty happy with it. The ACA kicked in and my insurance company quit writing policies, and stopped renewing them. They left the marketplace, leaving me, self employed and without insurance just as the downturn in oil prices impacted my industry. Nice.

After 20 years of carrying a policy, I have nothing, I have a history of skin cancer, but take no medications, have no heart condition, etc. I don't drink or smoke. I don't use drugs. But insurance even now is prohibitively expensive because there is only one carrier in the market here. I will teach my great grandchildren to spit at the mention of Obama.

In the meantime, healthy old folks and young folks, too, will be hammered with fines/fees/taxes for breathing in order to support the treatment of homosexuals with AIDS and drug addicts, while not being able to afford their own basic health care.

The system punishes those who live cleanly and rewards those who won't.

My best wishes, smokin' joe.   I hope your situation improves. 

I don't look at the "access issue" - the ostensible reason for the ACA -  as a matter of mainly benefitting those with poor lifestyle choices.  The reason so many lack insurance is because the system is employer-based.  Folks who work for small employers,  or those who are laid off in their fifties in the wake of the recession,  are not folks without virtue.

The ACA has helped some people, none more so than the cohort between 55 and 65,  too young for Medicare but out of a job, but old enough to start developing medical problems.   Unfortunately,  the ACA was sold with the promise that if you liked your plan you could keep it,  and as your experience shows that promise was most cruelly denied to the self-employed.   More copays and higher premiums to utilize a narrower network of providers.   

Hopefully reform is on the way.   The insurance market for health costs should function more like the insurance market for other risks.  Give folks choices to decide for themselves what risks to insure.   Auto insurance doesn't pay for oil changes, so why should health insurance be required to pay for checkups?   I can see the value in having free checkups and free vaccinations and free birth control pills,  but I can also see the value of paying only to insure the risk of calamity and paying for stuff I can predict and budget for out of my own pocket.

What interests me at the moment is what might the impact on the market be of the stop loss insurance model that businesses use applied to individual health coverage.    I think it would encourage the majority of health care purchases to be cash transactions without the need to even involve an insurance company.   And that would lower prices dramatically.   

 

« Last Edit: February 17, 2017, 03:09:45 am by Jazzhead »
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Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Conservatives fret GOP is blowing Obamacare repeal
« Reply #164 on: February 17, 2017, 05:44:21 am »
You can say this is a young/old thing, and to some degree I can't argue with that, but I though the purpose of the ACA was to pay for the poor lifestyle choices of those who were deemed uninsurable or high risk. I had fine insurance, and was plenty happy with it. The ACA kicked in and my insurance company quit writing policies, and stopped renewing them. They left the marketplace, leaving me, self employed and without insurance just as the downturn in oil prices impacted my industry. Nice.

After 20 years of carrying a policy, I have nothing, I have a history of skin cancer, but take no medications, have no heart condition, etc. I don't drink or smoke. I don't use drugs. But insurance even now is prohibitively expensive because there is only one carrier in the market here. I will teach my great grandchildren to spit at the mention of Obama.

In the meantime, healthy old folks and young folks, too, will be hammered with fines/fees/taxes for breathing in order to support the treatment of homosexuals with AIDS and drug addicts, while not being able to afford their own basic health care.

The system punishes those who live cleanly and rewards those who won't.

That really sucks.  I hate how easy it is for leftist theorists to casually throw others' lives around like manhole covers.  Obama isn't the only name that makes me spit.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
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Offline INVAR

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Re: Conservatives fret GOP is blowing Obamacare repeal
« Reply #165 on: February 17, 2017, 05:46:02 am »
I haven't read such Apologist scatology for ObamaCare as you have demonstrated even on fora that is largely DEMOCRAT.

But I'm going to shred your vain efforts of justifying this obamination of an Act because it tramples liberty and the Constitution in intrusive and vile ways no government effort has to date.

I don't look at the "access issue" - the ostensible reason for the ACA -  as a matter of mainly benefitting those with poor lifestyle choices.

Of course you don't.  It doesn't make your position look valiant and sanguine enough, even though the entire Act was sold to insure the 16-33 million so-called uninsured that were largely made up of low-income/bad lifestyle/illegals/immigrant non-citizen choice people.  So instead you want us to believe that a majority of noble folks down on their luck have benefited from our tax subsidy to get them an insurance card which ultimately took all of our existing plans that we liked, and turned them into crap overnight or dumped their policyholders altogether because of this behemoth.  All done in order to cover pre-existing conditions and medical procedures we have no use for.  Notwithstanding piling most of them into the nearly-bankrupt Medicaid system.

The reason for the ACA was as I stated earlier, but you ignored: to COLLAPSE THE EXISTING HEALTH INSURANCE INDUSTRY AND FORCE THE POPULATION TO ACCEPT SINGLE PAYER/GOVERNMENT RUN HEALTHCARE.

The reason so many lack insurance is because the system is employer-based.

So what?  Why is that a bad thing?  It worked just fine until government meddling and ultimately ObamaCare.  When I was an independent contractor I had no insurance - and paid cash or made payment arrangements for health issues I had taken care of.  When self-employed - I did the same thing until I was large enough to enter a pool with other small businesses. it was just fine until your precious ACA came along.

Folks who work for small employers,  or those who are laid off in their fifties in the wake of the recession,  are not folks without virtue.

Who says they are without virtue?  What the hell does that have to do with anything?  You sound just like a speechwriter for Hillary or Obama with this crap.  You think playing on the emotions by championing the downtrodden everyman due to those dastardly small businesses who discriminate against fifty-year olds is going to persuade us to your position?  Pathetic.

The ACA has helped some people, none more so than the cohort between 55 and 65,  too young for Medicare but out of a job, but old enough to start developing medical problems.

Cite your source of these statistics to back up the claim of all these pre-SoSec beneficiaries being saved by ObamaCare.  It's not that I don't believe you - it's just that I don't believe you.

Unfortunately,  the ACA was sold with the promise that if you liked your plan you could keep it,  and as your experience shows that promise was most cruelly denied to the self-employed.   More copays and higher premiums to utilize a narrower network of providers.

Yeah, it's called The Big Lie to Push Tyranny  - and here you are defending it, citing all these wonderful things this tyranny is doing for the noble fifty-plus crowd who got laid off.

Hopefully reform is on the way.

Right.  You want us to 'reform' tyranny, make it more palpable and tolerable rather than to get rid of it altogether. 

We don't want ObamaCare reformed - WE WANT IT GONE.

The insurance market for health costs should function more like the insurance market for other risks.

Let the professionals and businesses who make up that industry determine themselves how their markets should function.

But you won't.  All Statists and tyrants like to tell everyone else what to do - just like you demonstrate.

Give folks choices to decide for themselves what risks to insure.

If you truly believed that at all, then you would be championing getting government OUT of healthcare, OUT of the insurance industry.  But you are not.  Just the opposite in fact.  You told us that government intrusion and decision making for us little people is "here to stay".

What interests me at the moment is what might the impact on the market be of the stop loss insurance model that businesses use applied to individual health coverage.    I think it would encourage the majority of health care purchases to be cash transactions without the need to even involve an insurance company.   

We don't need government for any of that.  We do not need your precious ACA for any of that. 
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Conservatives fret GOP is blowing Obamacare repeal
« Reply #166 on: February 17, 2017, 05:58:38 am »
@INVAR Prepare to be ignored by the theoretician....
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed:

Offline INVAR

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Re: Conservatives fret GOP is blowing Obamacare repeal
« Reply #167 on: February 17, 2017, 07:56:36 am »
@INVAR Prepare to be ignored by the theoretician....

Oh that's fine.

He's just the goza mat I'm using to cut through his vain and feeble attempts to persuade us in Liberal Theory.  I don't care if he responds.

The rebuttals are not for his benefit anyway, but ours as an exercise in combating the Leftist agenda.

Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline Sanguine

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Re: Conservatives fret GOP is blowing Obamacare repeal
« Reply #168 on: February 17, 2017, 12:36:50 pm »
I haven't read such Apologist scatology for ObamaCare as you have demonstrated even on fora that is largely DEMOCRAT.

But I'm going to shred your vain efforts of justifying this obamination of an Act because it tramples liberty and the Constitution in intrusive and vile ways no government effort has to date.
 
Of course you don't.  It doesn't make your position look valiant and sanguine enough....
Ba

Hey, hey there!  Back off of that Sanguine stuff!

Offline Bigun

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Re: Conservatives fret GOP is blowing Obamacare repeal
« Reply #169 on: February 17, 2017, 02:28:12 pm »
That really sucks.  I hate how easy it is for leftist theorists to casually throw others' lives around like manhole covers.  Obama isn't the only name that makes me spit.

Not by a long shot!  I could rattle off a very long list but I don't have enough spit!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
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Offline Hoodat

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Re: Conservatives fret GOP is blowing Obamacare repeal
« Reply #170 on: February 24, 2017, 05:27:11 pm »




I am debating whether I should share this picture with my wife.
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Re: Conservatives fret GOP is blowing Obamacare repeal
« Reply #171 on: February 24, 2017, 06:49:32 pm »
Not by a long shot!  I could rattle off a very long list but I don't have enough spit!

I was thinking why in the world would he bring you into the convo?