Author Topic: Using Natural Gas for Vehicles: Comparing Three Technologies  (Read 2158 times)

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Online Elderberry

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Using Natural Gas for Vehicles: Comparing Three Technologies
« on: February 02, 2017, 01:24:20 am »
Using Natural Gas for Vehicles: Comparing Three Technologies

In the United States, natural gas is  used primarily for electricity generation and residential, commercial,  and industrial applications, but it  is also used as a fuel for on-road  vehicles, especially in medium- or  heavy-duty vehicles in centrally- fueled fleets.

   It has been proposed for greater  use as a fuel for on-road vehicles,  particularly in light-duty vehicles.  This can mean burning natural gas  in an internal combustion engine  like those used in most natural gas,  gasoline, diesel-powered vehicles on  the road today. However, natural gas  can also serve as the energy source  for plug-in electric or hydrogen  fuel cell electric vehicles. This fact  sheet compares some efficiency and  environmental metrics for three  possible options for using natural  gas in light-duty cars.

 The analysis presented here compares these pathways. It is  not  intended to recommend for or  against increased use of natural  gas in light-duty vehicles. Related  ongoing analysis considers use  ofnatural gas with these three  technology pathways in medium-  or heavy-duty vehicles (for example,  in centrally-fueled fleets that use  large quantities of fuel), but will not  be covered in this fact sheet.

 This comparison of pathways in  light-duty vehicles is based on a  detailed analysis (Wang and  Elgowainy 2015), which uses the  GREET model (Greenhouse Gases,  Regulated Emissions, and Energy  use in Transportation). Scientists  at Argonne National Laboratory  developed GREET to estimate  energy use and emissions across the  entire fuel life cycle from extraction  to end use in transportation. 

Considering Life Cycle Efficiency

  Each of the three pathways for using natural gas has strengths and weaknesses that determine where efficiency  losses and emissions occur across the entire life cycle. Vehicle efficiency determines only part of the story.

  Figure 2, which is based on GREET results, gives a look at the fuel life cycle for the three types of natural gas  cars, showing how energy conversion efficiency at each major step leads to the ultimate system efficiency for each  pathway. The percentages (light blue circles) show natural gas conversion efficiencies along steps of the life cycle.  Below each pathway, the changes in the height of the light blue bar show how much of the energy in one mmBtu of  natural gas is used during each step.

  Natural gas internal combustion engine vehicles running on compressed natural gas (CNGV) have the greatest  losses during combustion at the vehicle propulsion stage. Fuel cell electric vehicles (FCEVs) have the greatest losses  during hydrogen production via methane reforming and during electricity generation from hydrogen in the vehicle.  In addition, plug-in electric vehicles (PEVs) have the greatest losses during electricity generation.   

 US Dept of Energy

http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy16osti/64267.pdf

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: Using Natural Gas for Vehicles: Comparing Three Technologies
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2017, 02:41:03 am »
Used to visit Australia on business years ago.  They are oil poor but gas rich.

Everything possible was running on NG.  Likely even more so now.
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Offline kidd

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Re: Using Natural Gas for Vehicles: Comparing Three Technologies
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2017, 09:58:45 pm »
Using Natural Gas for Vehicles: Comparing Three Technologies

http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy16osti/64267.pdf

Not discussed in the link:

A vehicle that burns natural gas can be fueled quickly and from a pump that can be installed at your own home. Cheaper to operate than octane. Less repair costs than octane fueled cars. No different to operate than octane-fuelled cars in cold weather. New York state, and others, have numerous NG fueling stations.

Fuel cell cars are enormously expensive to purchase. The power plant cannot be allowed to freeze, has a limited life and has a high replacement cost.

Electric vehicles take a long time to recharge. Use of a heater, headlights or air conditioning significantly limits the range of the vehicle

Offline InHeavenThereIsNoBeer

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Re: Using Natural Gas for Vehicles: Comparing Three Technologies
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2017, 10:20:44 pm »
Thanks for posting this.

I would have thought electric to be the least efficient due to transmission losses.  Nice to see actaul numbers.
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Online Elderberry

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Re: Using Natural Gas for Vehicles: Comparing Three Technologies
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2017, 11:16:53 pm »
Not discussed in the link:

A vehicle that burns natural gas can be fueled quickly and from a pump that can be installed at your own home. Cheaper to operate than octane. Less repair costs than octane fueled cars. No different to operate than octane-fuelled cars in cold weather. New York state, and others, have numerous NG fueling stations.

Fuel cell cars are enormously expensive to purchase. The power plant cannot be allowed to freeze, has a limited life and has a high replacement cost.

Electric vehicles take a long time to recharge. Use of a heater, headlights or air conditioning significantly limits the range of the vehicle

I wonder how much a home refueling setup would cost.

One thing though, there are All Electric Neighborhoods, where no natural gas is available.

Offline Taxcontrol

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Re: Using Natural Gas for Vehicles: Comparing Three Technologies
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2017, 12:12:33 am »
I wonder how much a home refueling setup would cost.

One thing though, there are All Electric Neighborhoods, where no natural gas is available.

Last time I checked, between $3,000 and $4,000 but that was 4+ years ago

http://www.brcfuelmaker.com/phill-domestico-prodotto-brc-fuel-maker.aspx

Offline Bigun

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Re: Using Natural Gas for Vehicles: Comparing Three Technologies
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2017, 02:23:46 am »
Not discussed in the link:

A vehicle that burns natural gas can be fueled quickly and from a pump that can be installed at your own home. Cheaper to operate than octane. Less repair costs than octane fueled cars. No different to operate than octane-fuelled cars in cold weather. New York state, and others, have numerous NG fueling stations.

Fuel cell cars are enormously expensive to purchase. The power plant cannot be allowed to freeze, has a limited life and has a high replacement cost.

Electric vehicles take a long time to recharge. Use of a heater, headlights or air conditioning significantly limits the range of the vehicle

Also not mentioned is the fact that the operators of NG powered vehicles are driving around in self contained bombs! I wouldn't want to be in one involved in any sort of serious accident!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Joe Wooten

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Re: Using Natural Gas for Vehicles: Comparing Three Technologies
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2017, 05:05:22 pm »
Also not mentioned is the fact that the operators of NG powered vehicles are driving around in self contained bombs! I wouldn't want to be in one involved in any sort of serious accident!

Truly no worse than gasoline vehicles. In 40 years I have never heard about a propane/NG vehicle involved in an accident that set off the fuel tank. Those tanks are very thick walled pressure vessels. Much thicker than a gasoline/Diesel tank.

Offline Bigun

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Re: Using Natural Gas for Vehicles: Comparing Three Technologies
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2017, 05:53:54 pm »
Truly no worse than gasoline vehicles. In 40 years I have never heard about a propane/NG vehicle involved in an accident that set off the fuel tank. Those tanks are very thick walled pressure vessels. Much thicker than a gasoline/Diesel tank.

LPG is a very different thing than NG and perhaps you not having heard of such an accident involving an NG powered vehicle is that there are relatively few of them in use on the highways.

I know all about those tanks!  Have been involved in the production of LNG in fact.  Everyone is free to do as they choose but I will NOT be in the market for any NG powered vehicles!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline thackney

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Re: Using Natural Gas for Vehicles: Comparing Three Technologies
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2017, 02:46:07 pm »
A vehicle that burns natural gas can be fueled quickly and from a pump that can be installed at your own home.

It will be fueled SLOWLY from a pump at your home.  Only commercial installations are typically going to be able to afford to quickly supply a full tank compressing from 0.25 psi to 3600 psi.

Typical use would be to connect at home and let it fill overnight.
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Offline thackney

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Re: Using Natural Gas for Vehicles: Comparing Three Technologies
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2017, 03:00:19 pm »
Thanks for posting this.

I would have thought electric to be the least efficient due to transmission losses.  Nice to see actaul numbers.

The big losses in electricity typically occur at the site of the electric power generations.  Transmission, Substation and distribution losses are about 3% these days while ~2/3's of the energy that enters the power plant doesn't make it down the transmission line.




Source and notes:
https://www.eia.gov/totalenergy/data/monthly/pdf/flow/electricity.pdf
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Offline thackney

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Re: Using Natural Gas for Vehicles: Comparing Three Technologies
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2017, 03:03:43 pm »
Also not mentioned is the fact that the operators of NG powered vehicles are driving around in self contained bombs! I wouldn't want to be in one involved in any sort of serious accident!

We have had Compressed Natural Gas vehicles on the roads for decades.  If it was such a problem, where are the reports of the exploding bombs?  The risk from these are similar or less than the gasoline tank.

One reason that improves the safety is a leak from the tank is lighter than air and quickly dissipates.  It won't puddle on the ground like gasoline waiting for an ignition source.

http://www.afdc.energy.gov/vehicles/natural_gas.html

Natural gas powers about 150,000 vehicles in the United States and roughly 15.2 million vehicles worldwide.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2017, 03:06:04 pm by thackney »
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Offline Bigun

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Re: Using Natural Gas for Vehicles: Comparing Three Technologies
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2017, 04:01:41 pm »

http://www.facebook.com/ParaguayReclamaOficial/videos/1430112650386006/
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline MajorClay

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Re: Using Natural Gas for Vehicles: Comparing Three Technologies
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2017, 07:47:31 am »
Awesome, Thanks