Author Topic: Titanic WAS NOT sunk by Iceberg – new evidence suggests shock theory to disaster  (Read 4141 times)

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Offline r9etb

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Which leads to a question: how come this boat was able to toddle along for three - three! - weeks without anyone noticing a big plume of steam coming off the side that was exposed to this 1,000 degree fire?

Silly.  "Oh, I say, we are traveling so quickly that the water fairly leaps out of our way.  Corking ship.  Absolutely smashing."

Offline LateForLunch

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So, let me get this straight.  The iceberg struck the ship on the side and ripped it open just below the waterline.  The iceberg was able to do this only because the hull metal had been weakened by a 1,000 degree fire.  The fire had been burning for three weeks straight (presumably at or near 1,000 degrees). That necessarily implies that the external hull metal was sufficiently exposed to this 1,000 degree fire that it was weakened. 

Now, I know for a fact that metal is a very good conductor of heat.  That means that the external surface of the hull would have been at or near that 1,000 degree temperature if the internal surface was at that temperature.  Now, I also know that the external surface of a ship's hull is in direct contact with the surrounding ocean.  Now, I also know that the ocean consists mainly of water and that water boils at around 212 degrees F (the salt content of the ocean most likely changed this a little).

Which leads to a question: how come this boat was able to toddle along for three - three! - weeks without anyone noticing a big plume of steam coming off the side that was exposed to this 1,000 degree fire?

hah hah perhaps you are right. But remember people can walk across hot coals without being burned if they do so quickly because heat transfers gradually. There was a steady stream of water coursing across the surface of the hull  never more than about 55 degrees. Eventually the temperature was only a few degrees above freezing, and with the water flowing, high turbulence mixed the heat into the volume of the water flowing across the hull. From a physics POV it is likely that even though the temperature inside might have been 1000 degrees, unless the ship stopped dead in the water (unknown) during its voyage the temperature might never have gotten high enough to create highly-visible steam.

I once read an article about the steel plates that were used in the construction of the Titanic and it was theorized that because it was of highly inferior composition (relative to today's standards), the extremely low temperatures caused it to effectively behave like a crystal instead of retaining characteristic flexibility of steel and so shattered on impact instead of remaining resilient.

 One version of this ongoing fire scenario includes the idea that the ship's commanders kept the fire secret, which makes sense from a PR perspective knowing how important success of the voyage was to the owners/builders. This would also explain the anomalous weakness of the plate at the site of impact only from a different cause than extreme cold alone.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2017, 03:05:51 pm by LateForLunch »
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Wingnut

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 One version of this ongoing fire scenario includes the idea that the ship's commanders kept the fire secret, which makes sense from a PR perspective knowing how important success of the voyage was to the owners/builders. This would also explain the anomalous weakness of the plate at the site of impact only from a different cause than extreme cold alone.

Fire hardens steel.  With the cold water quenching the steel that damn hull should have been impenetrable!

 :whistle: :shrug:

Offline thackney

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Fire hardens steel.  With the cold water quenching the steel that damn hull should have been impenetrable!

 :whistle: :shrug:

Quick cooling hardens

Slow cooling anneals (softens).

If the fire was present for weeks, along with a steady constant temperature of the ocean, it wasn't hardened.
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Offline LateForLunch

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Fire hardens steel.  With the cold water quenching the steel that damn hull should have been impenetrable!

 :whistle: :shrug:

I think that's incorrect. As far as I can determine, one of the things that makes steel so strong as a building material is its ability to deform at the small scale (stretch) but still  retain its larger symmetry (it will dent before breaking). IOW steel is to some large degree flexible. Glass is much harder than steel but it is also less strong because it has almost no flexibility when stressed or shocked.  Heat tends to loosen molecular bonds (the molecules are more widely spaced) therefore, tensile cohesion at the microscopic level would be less in a hot steel than a cold steel.

The steel they used for the hull plates of the Titanic at that time in history was heavily contaminated by impurities. Even though it might have been very hard, a crystalline hardness would not serve it well in an impact scenario and impure steel tends to become more brittle and less flexible at very cold temperatures while modern (better quality) steel, such as the type used on nuclear subs etc., retains more flexibility.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2017, 04:58:58 pm by LateForLunch »
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Offline Joe Wooten

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Fire hardens steel.  With the cold water quenching the steel that damn hull should have been impenetrable!

 :whistle: :shrug:

In the case of the steel used on the Titanic, it's ductile-to-brittle transition temperature is somewhere around 32F, and it had been sailing in water at or below that temperature for several days. It the water temperature had been higher, it might have not ripped such a large hole in the side when it collided with the iceberg.

Offline Just_Victor

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In the case of the steel used on the Titanic, it's ductile-to-brittle transition temperature is somewhere around 32F, and it had been sailing in water at or below that temperature for several days. It the water temperature had been higher, it might have not ripped such a large hole in the side when it collided with the iceberg.

They actually retrieved a chunk of the hull steel plate from the wreckage a few years ago.  I remember they did a microstructural analysis looking for manganese stringers (an excuse for lower strength material), which they didn't find.  I'd bet they did a full slate of mechanical properties, yield and ultimate strength, nill duct temp, fracture toughness, etc.  Love to see the results if they have them.
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Offline LateForLunch

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They actually retrieved a chunk of the hull steel plate from the wreckage a few years ago.  I remember they did a microstructural analysis looking for manganese stringers (an excuse for lower strength material), which they didn't find.  I'd bet they did a full slate of mechanical properties, yield and ultimate strength, nill duct temp, fracture toughness, etc.  Love to see the results if they have them.

Done and done. Excerpt from article in the below attached URL:

"The ductile-brittle transition temperature determined at an impact energy of 20 joules is -27°C for ASTM A36, 32°C for the longitudinal specimens made from the Titanic hull plate, and 56°C for the transverse specimens. It is apparent that the steel used for the hull was not suited for service at low temperatures. The seawater temperature at the time of the collision was -2°C." *

http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/jom/9801/felkins-9801.html

* Before someone asks, the temperature stated in the analysis (-2 degrees centigrade) is not a misprint. Because of the dissolved salts/solids content of most sea water, the freezing point is significantly lower than for fresh water.


« Last Edit: January 26, 2017, 08:14:28 pm by LateForLunch »
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Offline Joe Wooten

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Done and done. Excerpt from article in the below attached URL:

"The ductile-brittle transition temperature determined at an impact energy of 20 joules is -27°C for ASTM A36, 32°C for the longitudinal specimens made from the Titanic hull plate, and 56°C for the transverse specimens. It is apparent that the steel used for the hull was not suited for service at low temperatures. The seawater temperature at the time of the collision was -2°C." *

http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/jom/9801/felkins-9801.html

* Before someone asks, the temperature stated in the analysis (-2 degrees centigrade) is not a misprint. Because of the dissolved salts/solids content of most sea water, the freezing point is significantly lower than for fresh water.

I remember when I was going through recurrent training at the Dresden Nuke plant, the guy teaching the class on equipment failures had a session on the steel used in the Titanic, which was the same alloy used to make the containment building on the long shut down Dresden Unit 1. One of the reasons for the shutdown was the insistence of the NRC on putting concrete over the containment building because if there was a catastrophic turbine failure during very cold weather, debris from the turbine could damage the containment building. Unit 1 was built in 1960 and had only a steel containment building.

After the NRC made this demand, ComEd decided to shut it down permanently. The cost of conforming to the new regulations was more than the old 200 MWe plant was worth. The payback just was not there.

Offline Cripplecreek

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I remember when I was going through recurrent training at the Dresden Nuke plant, the guy teaching the class on equipment failures had a session on the steel used in the Titanic, which was the same alloy used to make the containment building on the long shut down Dresden Unit 1. One of the reasons for the shutdown was the insistence of the NRC on putting concrete over the containment building because if there was a catastrophic turbine failure during very cold weather, debris from the turbine could damage the containment building. Unit 1 was built in 1960 and had only a steel containment building.

After the NRC made this demand, ComEd decided to shut it down permanently. The cost of conforming to the new regulations was more than the old 200 MWe plant was worth. The payback just was not there.

Sounds a bit like racing SAFER barriers in reverse.

The concrete backed by earth protects the fans but killed drivers. The steel SAFER barrier crushes to absorb energy and saves drivers. Its some pretty stout stuff. 3/16 wall thickness square steel tube.


Oceander

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In the case of the steel used on the Titanic, it's ductile-to-brittle transition temperature is somewhere around 32F, and it had been sailing in water at or below that temperature for several days. It the water temperature had been higher, it might have not ripped such a large hole in the side when it collided with the iceberg.

Reminds me of what happened to some of the earlier liberty ships during WWII.  Apparently, the steel used had a ductile to brittle transition point above the temperature of the North Atlantic and a number of them suffered fracked bulls, with a few sinking.  Seems also that the fact the hulls were welded and not riveted allowed the cracks to propagate unimpeded. 

Offline Just_Victor

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Reminds me of what happened to some of the earlier liberty ships during WWII.  Apparently, the steel used had a ductile to brittle transition point above the temperature of the North Atlantic and a number of them suffered fracked bulls, with a few sinking.  Seems also that the fact the hulls were welded and not riveted allowed the cracks to propagate unimpeded.

The Liberty ship failures were a case study in my fracture mechanics class.  The sharp corners of the cargo hold openings served as a stress concentration and crack initiation site.  The cold and heavy seas of the North Atlantic helped the cracks propigate.  And you're right about the welded structure having no means to arrest the crack growth.
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Offline LateForLunch

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... no means to arrest the crack growth.

That's because the WHITE MAN wanted the crack out there to destroy the BLACK FOLKS!!!  RACISSS!!!
« Last Edit: January 27, 2017, 08:33:25 pm by LateForLunch »
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Offline INVAR

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NOT sunk by iceberg???????

Contradicts the surviving witness testimony that large chunks of ice had broken off the berg when the ship struck it and were being played with on the deck like hockey pucks.

The ONLY change in how the ship sank came from the discovery of entire double bottom keel plates found a apart from the two main debris fields of the bow and stern on the floor of the Atlantic. 

Speculation is that the Titanic's final break up was that the bottom keel plates broke and failed and that the ship tore in two from the bottom on up, rather than top on down as depicted in Cameron's movie.

But an iceberg is below-freezing water is what opened up the ship and flooded the forward section, causing it to founder.
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Offline LateForLunch

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NOT sunk by iceberg???????

Contradicts the surviving witness testimony that large chunks of ice had broken off the berg when the ship struck it and were being played with on the deck like hockey pucks.

The ONLY change in how the ship sank came from the discovery of entire double bottom keel plates found a apart from the two main debris fields of the bow and stern on the floor of the Atlantic. 

Speculation is that the Titanic's final break up was that the bottom keel plates broke and failed and that the ship tore in two from the bottom on up, rather than top on down as depicted in Cameron's movie.

But an iceberg is below-freezing water is what opened up the ship and flooded the forward section, causing it to founder.

Yeah, but what are you going to believe? Your own ability to think/reason or something that is posted on the INTERWEB!!
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Offline Joe Wooten

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The Liberty ship failures were a case study in my fracture mechanics class.  The sharp corners of the cargo hold openings served as a stress concentration and crack initiation site.  The cold and heavy seas of the North Atlantic helped the cracks propigate.  And you're right about the welded structure having no means to arrest the crack growth.

Same here. Except the Chinese(Taiwan) guy teaching my class was almost impossible to understand.

Offline montanajoe

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Back in my research associate days I knew a materials science guy who felt the extent of the damage from the berg was due to the early 1900's Belfast steel. He said it contained way to much carbon which made it brittle in the cold waters of the North Atlantic and thus unable to withstand long contact with a berg, the thought it micro-fractured over a seam covering 7 or 8 holds which eventually lead to a zipper like breach.

Apparently, with improved technology the steel got better and the problem mostly went away although he also attributed the Titanic's sister ship (the Lusitania? cant remember off hand ) that was torpedoed and sank quickly with the same flaw...

Offline INVAR

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Apparently, with improved technology the steel got better and the problem mostly went away although he also attributed the Titanic's sister ship (the Lusitania? cant remember off hand ) that was torpedoed and sank quickly with the same flaw...

The Titanic's sister ships were the Olympic and Britannic.  The Lusitania was a ship from Cunard Lines, which was a competitor of White Star's fleet of ships and not a sister ship at all, but rather a rival.

FYI for fun.
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Offline montanajoe

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The Titanic's sister ships were the Olympic and Britannic.  The Lusitania was a ship from Cunard Lines, which was a competitor of White Star's fleet of ships and not a sister ship at all, but rather a rival.

FYI for fun.

Right thanks for that.. :beer:

IIRC the Britannic was converted to a hospital ship and sunk of the coast of Ireland with a great loss of life during WWI..

Offline INVAR

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Right thanks for that.. :beer:

IIRC the Britannic was converted to a hospital ship and sunk of the coast of Ireland with a great loss of life during WWI..

Actually, Britannic was sunk off of Greece in the Med and lost only 30 lives.   A miracle in that she sunk in less than an hour after hitting a mine, though one lifeboat and its occupants were chopped and shredded to bits when the stern and propellers came out of the water and their lifeboat was sucked into it.  The reason the props were going full speed is that the captain was trying to beach the ship on the island of Kea.  It never made it.  She sunk in 400 feet of water.

She was the largest ship lost in the war though.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2017, 04:00:08 am by INVAR »
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline montanajoe

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Actually, Britannic was sunk off of Greece in the Med and lost only 30 lives.   A miracle in that she sunk in less than an hour after hitting a mine, though one lifeboat and its occupants were chopped and shredded to bits when the stern and propellers came out of the water and their lifeboat was sucked into it.  The reason the props were going full speed is that the captain was trying to beach the ship on the island of Kea.  It never made it.  She sunk in 400 feet of water.

She was the largest ship lost in the war though.

Geez  I got the whole history mixed up, getting old I guess, still think my materials scientist friend offers an interesting and and more plausible explanation than this authors hypothesis..
« Last Edit: January 30, 2017, 05:07:38 am by montanajoe »

Oceander

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The Liberty ship failures were a case study in my fracture mechanics class.  The sharp corners of the cargo hold openings served as a stress concentration and crack initiation site.  The cold and heavy seas of the North Atlantic helped the cracks propigate.  And you're right about the welded structure having no means to arrest the crack growth.

I took a course in catastrophic failures a long, long time ago.  One of the other cases we studied was the Comets (I think I that was the name) that came apart in midair due to stress fractures; there it was the square window openings that were concentrating the stresses. 

Offline Just_Victor

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I took a course in catastrophic failures a long, long time ago.  One of the other cases we studied was the Comets (I think I that was the name) that came apart in midair due to stress fractures; there it was the square window openings that were concentrating the stresses.

Yup that was another case study in my class.  The "leak before burst" approach to design for fracture control is the direct result of the Comet.
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Offline Joe Wooten

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Yup that was another case study in my class.  The "leak before burst" approach to design for fracture control is the direct result of the Comet.

Same here. Solution was to replace the square windows with round ones to eliminate the corner weak point