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Online thackney

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« on: January 11, 2017, 10:42:27 AM »
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Offline Just_Victor

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« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2017, 01:39:15 PM »

I wonder what the cost of that albatross is to NRG customers?
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Online driftdiver

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« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2017, 01:45:33 PM »
Im not sure I understand this.   So they separate out the CO2 by burning more fossil fuels?
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Offline Joe Wooten

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« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2017, 01:50:22 PM »
I wonder what the cost of that albatross is to NRG customers?

Or the American taxpayer. Back when I was a junior engineer for Texas Utilities at the Morgan Creek power plant Colorado City, TX), we had an approved modification to install a CO2 capture unit on Unit 6 there, a 500 MWe gas fired plant. We had gone as far as getting the preliminary design drawings approved in early 1980 when the project was cancelled. The CO2 was going to be sold to the local oil field operators for tertiary recovery projects.

The reason it was cancelled?

There was a huge deep gas strike in the northern panhandle and a large percentage of the raw gas was CO2. It would have to be separated out before being sold, and separation from the raw natural gas was orders of magnitude cheaper than doing it from furnace flue gas. That gas field is still selling CO2 to the oil patch.

Offline Joe Wooten

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« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2017, 01:51:40 PM »
Im not sure I understand this.   So they separate out the CO2 by burning more fossil fuels?

Essentially correct. If I remember right, the power to run the proposed Morgan Creek separator station was about 3-4 MW. I bet this one is about half that.

Online thackney

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« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2017, 02:31:35 PM »
Im not sure I understand this.   So they separate out the CO2 by burning more fossil fuels?

Those pumps and the heat require energy from somewhere.  So more of the generated electricity at the power plant is used internal and less power is available for consumers.

The bonus is the CO2 is sold to the oil company to enhance the production from the oil field, leaving the CO2 in the ground.  (some is actually produced with the oil, separated out, then re-injected)
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Online thackney

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« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2017, 02:36:20 PM »
I wonder what the cost of that albatross is to NRG customers?

Petra Nova is 50-50 joint venture by NRG and JX Nippon. Additionally, the United States Department of Energy (DOE) is providing up to $190 million in grants as part of the Clean Coal Power Initiative Program (CCPI), a cost-shared collaboration between the federal government and private industry. A portion of the project was financed with project loans from the Japan Bank for International Cooperation (JBIC) and Mizuho Bank, backed by Nippon Export and Investment Insurance (NEXI).

http://investors.nrg.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=121544&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=2236424

- - - - - - - - - -

The total project cost is estimated to cost $1 billion.

https://sequestration.mit.edu/tools/projects/wa_parish.html

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Online thackney

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« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2017, 02:41:13 PM »
Life is fragile, handle with prayer

Offline Just_Victor

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« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2017, 03:11:31 PM »
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Online thackney

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« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2017, 03:45:42 PM »
I'm sure NRG is going to advertise their commitment to sustainable energy to justify their higher rates and hope that their customer base are enviro-wackos willing to pay more for "responsible energy production."

It is more complicated than just the cost to store CO2.  Because the CO2 is used to produce additional oil, there is economic benefit.  But I haven't found details about that and if the carbon capture and selling is oil price dependent.

When the decision to begin this started in 2010 and progressed the price of oil varied from ~$80~95 per barrel while the design, sizing, etc was worked out over ~5 years.  It wasn't until after construction started and investments made that the oil price dropped significantly.

The rule of thumb was that you get an extra two barrels of oil out for every ton of carbon dioxide you put in.  Were contracts put in place based on dollar amounts oil sold for at that time?  Is the CO2 price sliding with the oil price?  With this set up, it could be a money maker for NRG with the shared cost arrangements.  It could be a money sink for the oil company.  I would like to find out more before I would claim NRG has price spikes for selling electricity.

Nearly all the Texas power companies have different rate plans available.  I've been in one for years (not NRG) that is tied to the cost of Natural Gas based upon using it for power generation.
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Offline Just_Victor

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« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2017, 03:53:00 PM »
It is more complicated than just the cost to store CO2.  Because the CO2 is used to produce additional oil, there is economic benefit.  But I haven't found details about that and if the carbon capture and selling is oil price dependent.

When the decision to begin this started in 2010 and progressed the price of oil varied from ~$80~95 per barrel while the design, sizing, etc was worked out over ~5 years.  It wasn't until after construction started and investments made that the oil price dropped significantly.

The rule of thumb was that you get an extra two barrels of oil out for every ton of carbon dioxide you put in.  Were contracts put in place based on dollar amounts oil sold for at that time?  Is the CO2 price sliding with the oil price?  With this set up, it could be a money maker for NRG with the shared cost arrangements.  It could be a money sink for the oil company.  I would like to find out more before I would claim NRG has price spikes for selling electricity.

Nearly all the Texas power companies have different rate plans available.  I've been in one for years (not NRG) that is tied to the cost of Natural Gas based upon using it for power generation.

You may have already pointed it out in a different post, but there is probably a substantial government payout (taxbreak, whatever) to offset the capital outlays, because CO2=EVIL.  Whatever NRG's approach, they aren't stupid.  NRG isn't going into this expecting to lose money.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2017, 03:53:45 PM by Just_Victor »
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Online thackney

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« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2017, 03:56:20 PM »
I'm sure NRG is going to advertise their commitment to sustainable energy to justify their higher rates and hope that their customer base are enviro-wackos willing to pay more for "responsible energy production."

In this area (I live in the adjacent county)  the NRG subsidiary for electrical power is Reliant. (from the Houston Looting & Plunder Lighting and Power  Co)

They offer 15 different rate plans including "100% solar" and "100% wind", fixed, variable and indexed plans.

https://www.reliant.com/files/0901751881236b40.pdf

https://www.reliant.com/files/090175188126c7e2.pdf

The make no mention (yet) of a carbon capture plan.



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Online thackney

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« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2017, 03:57:40 PM »
You may have already pointed it out in a different post, but there is probably a substantial government payout (taxbreak, whatever) to offset the capital outlays, because CO2=EVIL.  Whatever NRG's approach, they aren't stupid.  NRG isn't going into this expecting to lose money.

~20% of the project cost paid by tax payers.
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Offline dfwgator

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« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2017, 04:12:27 PM »
What a waste.

Offline Smokin Joe

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« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2017, 06:54:00 AM »
What a waste.
Here it comes...PETP commercials on late night Teevee, showing poor starved plants, begging for just $19/month to save them....
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression
And I looked, and rose up, and said unto the nobles, and to the rulers, and to the rest of the people, Be not ye afraid of them: remember the Lord, which is great and terrible, and fight for your brethren, your sons, and your daughters, your wives, and your houses. Nehemiah 4:14 (KJV)

About the only "Big" Liberals don't revile is "Big Government"

Online IsailedawayfromFR

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« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2017, 10:24:07 AM »
Here it comes...PETP commercials on late night Teevee, showing poor starved plants, begging for just $19/month to save them....
Yep, and the only ones that profit are the bureaucrat and their green cronies.

BTW, I saw that Julie LeFever passed away.  You guys in ND must have been shocked as she was indeed a geological institution for ND.
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Online IsailedawayfromFR

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« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2017, 10:28:03 AM »
I'm sure NRG is going to advertise their commitment to sustainable energy to justify their higher rates and hope that their customer base are enviro-wackos willing to pay more for "responsible energy production."
Well, we here in Texas are free to choose whoever we want each year if we want.  I specifically avoided any companies who had larger renewables investments.  I will not be choosing NRG either in the future.
Yearning to stay free takes place in many ways at many different times, whether by withstanding planes or bayonets

Online IsailedawayfromFR

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« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2017, 10:36:56 AM »
The rule of thumb was that you get an extra two barrels of oil out for every ton of carbon dioxide you put in.  Were contracts put in place based on dollar amounts oil sold for at that time?  Is the CO2 price sliding with the oil price?  With this set up, it could be a money maker for NRG with the shared cost arrangements.  It could be a money sink for the oil company. 

Be very careful using that old ROT.  The principal place that rule came about was for the huge oilfields in West Texas where CO2 usage was perfected.  Those fields had a perfect situation in that they were patterned waterflooded and needed redrilling to get spacing down which flushed out a lot of oil.  They were also carbonates which traditionally had lower recoveries compared to the mostly Frio reservoirs of the fields along the GC.

I worked the West field some in my younger days.  It had a lot higher primary recovery than the West Texas fields. And it was a waterdrive, which means it had less needs for enhanced recoveries.

I also worked another similar geology field up the coast at Magnet Withers in which we tried CO2.  It was not an economic success at all.

Bottom line: just because they are using CO2 does not mean they have a commercial venture.   Having cheap CO2 is a boon as it will always result in more oil, but may not be enough to actually pay for its cost to inject and produce.
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Offline Smokin Joe

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« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2017, 10:48:09 AM »
Yep, and the only ones that profit are the bureaucrat and their green cronies.

BTW, I saw that Julie LeFever passed away.  You guys in ND must have been shocked as she was indeed a geological institution for ND.
Yep. I had known Julie since Grad school, and her passing was a surprise. If ever a person was an institution in and of themselves she was, and is a resource the oil industry and geologists up here will miss.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression
And I looked, and rose up, and said unto the nobles, and to the rulers, and to the rest of the people, Be not ye afraid of them: remember the Lord, which is great and terrible, and fight for your brethren, your sons, and your daughters, your wives, and your houses. Nehemiah 4:14 (KJV)

About the only "Big" Liberals don't revile is "Big Government"


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