Author Topic: 5 Baseball Players That Weren’t Deserving of the MLB Hall of Fame  (Read 1943 times)

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Offline Machiavelli

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Ryan Davis
The Cheat Sheet
January 8, 2017

Quote
The Major League Baseball Hall of Fame was created all the way back in 1936 and has 312 members that have been enshrined over the years. The process, which involves sports writers and even former players voting and requires a player to receive 75% to be inducted, is far from perfect. Sure, you have plenty of players that are deserving that make it into the Hall of Fame without problem. But sometimes, deserving players are left out for long periods—such as third baseman Ron Santo, who finally was selected following his death in 2011—and other times undeserving players are chosen.

Here are five players that were selected but simply don’t belong in the Hall of Fame.

5. Ozzie Smith ...

4. Phil Rizzuto ...

3. Jim Rice ...

2. Bill Mazeroski ...

1. Bruce Sutter ...
Read the whole thing.

Click the link to find out why the writer thinks these guys got into the HOF and why they shouldn't be there. Don't worry. It's not clickbait. The entire article is displayed on one page.

Offline Machiavelli

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Re: 5 Baseball Players That Weren’t Deserving of the MLB Hall of Fame
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2017, 09:11:06 pm »
@EasyAce

What do you think?

Offline TomSea

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Re: 5 Baseball Players That Weren’t Deserving of the MLB Hall of Fame
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2017, 10:45:02 pm »
@jmyrlefuller  Any suggestions?

I think most of them belong there, the only one's I'd boot are anyone who might have used steroids.

And that doesn't look like any of those guys.

Offline TomSea

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Re: 5 Baseball Players That Weren’t Deserving of the MLB Hall of Fame
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2017, 01:34:53 am »
Belongs, 8 great years and then, injuries hurt his leg, real strong Christian, mainly Spanish speaking, legend, Cuban, graceful man.  Rod Carew is reknown, but dang, wasn't Tony a great batter too. Came to the US a year or two before Castro came to power.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Oliva



Quote
Oliva was the 1964 American League Rookie of the Year. He was an All-Star for eight seasons, an American League (AL) batting champion for three seasons, an AL hit leader five seasons, and a Gold Glove winner one season.

Also met a team-mate of Cookie Rojas. The team-mate was a Latino, from one of those countries too but I don't think he was a well-known player compared to Rojas.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cookie_Rojas
« Last Edit: January 09, 2017, 04:49:44 am by TomSea »

Online Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: 5 Baseball Players That Weren’t Deserving of the MLB Hall of Fame
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2017, 04:31:49 am »
Calling Ozzie Smith a "one trick pony" because of his defense is ridiculous.   He was arguably the best defensive player at the toughest defensive position ever, and wasn't an offensive liability.

The game is offense, defense, and pitching.   We put in guys who can do nothing but pitch or hit home runs and waddle around the bases.   Recognizing one of the greatest defensive players ever in the HOF is perfectly legitimate.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2017, 04:25:39 pm by Maj. Bill Martin »

Offline guitar4jesus

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Re: 5 Baseball Players That Weren’t Deserving of the MLB Hall of Fame
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2017, 12:31:51 pm »
Calling Ozzie Smith a "one trick pony" becaise of his defense is ridiculous.   He was arguably the best defensive player at the toughest defensive postion ever, and wasn't an offensive liability.

The game is offense, defense, and pitching.   We put in giys who can do nothing but pitch or hit dingers.   Recognizing one of the greatest defensive players ever in the HOF is perfectly legitimate.

Yep.

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Re: 5 Baseball Players That Weren’t Deserving of the MLB Hall of Fame
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2017, 04:37:11 pm »
I should add that I'm biased given that I want Omar Viquel to make it too....

Offline EasyAce

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Re: 5 Baseball Players That Weren’t Deserving of the MLB Hall of Fame
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2017, 12:06:18 am »
@EasyAce

What do you think?

I happen to agree about Phil Rizzuto. There is a place for him in the Hall of Fame---as a broadcaster, not
as a player. He's probably in as a player because a) he was a Yankee shortstop, in an era when they were the
dominant team in the game and was surrounded by enough higher-caliber talent to look better than he really
was; b) he had one season (1950) in which he played way over his own head; and, c) people remembered
him.

Ozzie Smith and Bill Mazeroski do belong in the Hall of Fame. The issue people have with them: what they had
to sell was off-the-charts defense. (Mazeroski retired with the best defensive statistics of any player, ever, at any
position; it wasn't even close.) Decades of Hall of Famers with truckloads of offense and no defense to sell didn't
quite register with those who thought electing Mazeroski and Smith was an act of temporary insanity. But if you
argue that preventing runs helps your team win, too, then there's a place in the Hall of Fame for men like
Mazeroski and Smith.

I can think of a small volume of Hall of Famers who don't really belong there; it would only begin with the rash
of former Cardinals and Giants cronies Frankie Frisch and Bill Terry strong-armed into the Hall when they ran
the old Veterans' Committee, and it would only continue with Don Drysdale, who could be a great pitcher
but often as not was merely a good pitcher but a) looked like a Hall of Famer married to Sandy Koufax, yet
b) doesn't measure up when---as you should, considering his overall record isn't that powerful a Hall of Fame
case---you analyse him more deeply for his impact on pennant races:

* In six critical pennant races in which his teams took it almost down to the absolute wire, Drysdale had only
one (1965) in which he pitched like a Hall of Famer.

* In twelve games---the biggest games of his career, in the absolute highest heat of those pennant races, when he
had the chance to beat the teams his team needed most to beat to stay in the race or win the pennant---Drysdale
never won one of them, didn't pitch that well in games his team went on to win, and had six no-decisions
in which he didn't pitch well enough to win.
.

* When he was given the ball on the final day of 1966, to start game one of a doubleheader with the Dodgers
needing to win only once that day to nail the pennant, Drysdale got driven out early by the Phillies (who weren't
near that year's race), forcing manager Walter Alston to a desperation play in the nightcap: sending out Koufax
on two days' rest. Koufax pitched a masterpiece in the nightcap to win the pennant . . . but it deprived Alston
of the option he wanted most for the World Series, starting Koufax in Game One. Had Drysdale pitched like a co-
ace in the first game, the Dodgers could have sent just about anyone out for the nightcap as a sacrifice to enable
Koufax to open the World Series on regular rest.

(Trivia: Sandy Koufax lifetime on two days' rest---he pitched 25 such games, won 14, lost four, and had a 2.25
ERA with a 1.06 walks/hits per inning pitched rate, not to mention 13 complete games.)

Since Drysdale was knocked out early in the opener of the twin bill, he could and did start Game One and got
beaten. (It didn't help that a near-nobody named Moe Drabowsky, in relief of Dave McNally, picked that day to
pitch the game of his life, his eleven-strikeout relief job to secure the game for the Orioles.) Koufax started Game
Two, still exhausted from the stretch drive, and pitched masterfully (Orioles first baseman Boog Powell, after meeting
Koufax years later and hearing Koufax lament he wasn't at his best that day: Whatever he had was plenty good
enough. He might have been hurtin', but he was bringin'
) until three Willie Davis errors in the fifth ended his day
on the wrong side of the ledger and helped stake a rookie named Jim Palmer to the win. Claude Osteen in Game
Three and Drysdale in Game Four were overmatched, and the Dodgers never got to send a properly-rested Koufax
out for another game in the set.

* Koufax retired after the 1966 season, leaving Drysdale as the staff ace. The Dodgers never competed for
a pennant again until after Drysdale---already dealing with serious knee issues---was forced to retire early in
1969 thanks to a shredded rotator cuff. If one of your criteria for a Hall of Fame pitcher is whether his team
would compete for or win a pennant with him as the staff ace, Drysdale falls short enough.

He was a good pitcher and a good guy, but Don Drysdale really wasn't a Hall of Famer.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2017, 12:24:07 am by EasyAce »


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Offline EasyAce

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Re: 5 Baseball Players That Weren’t Deserving of the MLB Hall of Fame
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2017, 12:14:25 am »
Belongs, 8 great years and then, injuries hurt his leg, real strong Christian, mainly Spanish speaking, legend, Cuban, graceful man.  Rod Carew is reknown, but dang, wasn't Tony a great batter too. Came to the US a year or two before Castro came to power.

It's the injury factor that keeps Tony Oliva from being a Hall of Famer; his knees kept him from hanging
up perhaps two or even three more seasons that would have secured his case. He wasn't just a solid hitter,
he was a good defensive right fielder who was a little better than his statistics tell you.

It was also the injury factor that kept Dale Murphy from solidifying a no-questions-asked Hall of Fame
case. He didn't get too much of a chance to prove he was more than a Fulton County Stadium hitter
because of injuries, which was a shame because if all you needed to be a Hall of Famer was
character Murphy would have gone in in a walk. (Don Mattingly has the same issue: his back issues
put the kibosh on his Hall of Fame chances and kept him from solidifying a case he was
clearly making before the issues became manifest and more permanent.)


"The question of who is right is a small one, indeed, beside the question of what is right."---Albert Jay Nock.

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Offline Machiavelli

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Offline EasyAce

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Re: 5 Baseball Players That Weren’t Deserving of the MLB Hall of Fame
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2017, 10:35:10 pm »
The article has apparently been updated.
@Machiavelli
I don't have that much of a problem with Bruce Sutter being in the Hall of Fame because a) he was a
dominant relief pitcher until his shoulder resigned its commission while he was with the Braves; and, b) he
did popularise a unique pitch (taught him in the minors). I get why people think he was short enough of
a Hall of Famer, but he was a great pitcher.

I actually hoped that Sutter's election might give a Veterans Committee offshoot a reason to re-examine
Elroy Face's case, since Face a) was one of the best relief pitchers in the game in his day, and b) Face
popularised the pitch from which Sutter's split-finger fastball was derived, the forkball, which Face first
learned from one-time Yankee standout reliever Joe Page. (And how many ballplayers can you name who
got invited onto The Ed Sullivan Show to demonstrate the pitch?)

When Max Scherzer opened 2013 11-0, I wrote this piece, which recalled Face's astonishing 1959, because
everybody else started remembering it after Scherzer bagged his eleventh:

Quote
Mad Max, chasing Face?

Finishing off the Yankees in last fall’s American League Championship Series, and mounting a splendid regular season
otherwise, made Max Scherzer a feel-good story considering he’d had to shake off his brother’s suicide earlier in the
season. This season, winning twelve without a loss at this writing, Scherzer’s more than a feel-good story, he almost
is the story for the otherwise Al Central-leading Tigers.

Considering the Tigers have had their share of fielding problems (as of 26 June only the Minnesota Twins and the Houston
Astros turned balls in play into outs at a lower rate), Scherzer may be pitching in a little luck. And he knows it. “All I
thought about is winning today. My personal record is more a reflection of the team,” he told reporters after beating the
Rays Friday night. “I don’t get caught up in the win-loss record, because it’s kind of fluky. Doug (Fister) goes seven innings,
one run and gets a no-decision. I go six and (give up) three and get a win. So that’s why it’s a fluky stat.”

Scherzer may not fool himself that he alone is responsible for the company in which he’s traveling now, which may be one
reason why the Tigers seem to have no problem making sure he doesn’t lose thus far. But Scherzer is enough of a baseball
historian to know his terrain, and its unlikelihood, no matter how good the pitcher or his team behind him.

Thirteen pitchers including Scherzer have opened seasons at 11-0 or better, beginning with Tom Zachary, a swingman on
the 1929 Yankees at 12-0. For this discussion’s purpose, I’ll define a swingman as a pitcher who appears in relief in half
or almost half his season’s assignments. Roger Moret (1973 Red Sox: 11-0 to open) pitched in exactly half his games in
relief that season. Dennis Lamp (1985 Blue Jays: 11-0 to open) was a former starter working middle relief. Nine pitchers
on the roll were pure starters, and one of them (Roger Clemens) pulled it off twice, including his breakout 1986 in which
he opened 14-0.

The one relief pitcher on the roll is Elroy Face, the longtime Pittsburgh Pirates relief maestro, whose money pitch was a
forkball taught him by one-time Yankee relief standout Joe Page. The grip made you wonder how Face threw it for so many
years (seventeen major league seasons) without splitting his pitching hand in half. In fact, after he became the first relief
pitcher to save three games in a single World Series, he was invited aboard The Ed Sullivan Show to discuss and
demonstrate the pitch, a precursor to the split-finger fastball.

Face opened 1959 with a staggering 17-0 won-loss record and finished the season 18-1 with ten saves (awarded retroactively,
of course) and the National League’s winning percentage championship. Look on the surface and Face’s accomplishment is
nothing short of surrealistic. How the hell did he pull it off? Here’s the skinny on all seventeen of those 1959 wins before he
incurred his only loss of the season. For better or worse, alas, you look deeper and realise that Face in 1959, possibly more than
Scherzer thus far this season, got there with more than a little help from his friends even with his final 2.70 ERA on the year.

22 April: Bob Friend started for the Pirates against Cincinnati and was battered for six runs in two full innings. Face was the
fourth Pittsburgh pitcher on the day, relieving Bennie Daniels to open the eighth inning with the game tied at seven. Manager
Danny Murtaugh, who’d used pitcher Vernon Law as a pinch runner after former Reds star Ted Kluszewski batted for Daniels
in the seventh, declined to keep Law in the game. Face surrendered a leadoff bomb to Gus Bell before retiring the next three
hitters, hung in to shut down the Reds in order in the top of the ninth, and got the win when the Pirates re-tied the game on
a bases-loaded walk (to Roman Mejias) and an RBI single (by Rocky Nelson).

24 April: Two days later, Face was brought in to save it for Ron Kline against Philadelphia, after two Pittsburgh relievers
(Bob Porterfield, Bob Smith) held on to get a 4-3 lead to Face. He got former Red Wally Post to fly out for the side, but in the
eighth he surrendered a two-run double to Phillies catcher Carl Sawatski. (Now, there’s a name!) Again, Face needed his mates
to overthrow a one-run deficit, which is exactly what they did in the top of the ninth: a two-run double (Smoky Burgess, driving
in Bill Virdon and Roberto Clemente), a sacrifice fly (Don Hoak, scoring Dick Schofield, Sr.), and an RBI single. (Bill Mazeroski,
driving in Dick Stuart.) Face shook off two singles to keep the Phillies at bay in the ninth for the win.

3 May: In the first game of a doubleheader with St. Louis, Face took over for Law to open the eighth in a three-all tie and dueled
Cardinals reliever Jim Brosnan (in the middle of the year that would produce his groundbreaking insider memoir, The Long Season)
into an extra inning. Face shut the Cardinals out hitless while the Pirates went fast enough and loose enough (a leadoff single, a
wild pitch moving the runner up, an intentional walk, a pop out, Brosnan out for Alex Kellner and a bases-loading walk, Kellner
out for Howie Nunn) before Mazeroski sent home the game winner with a single to right.

7 May: Again, Face worked in game one of a doubleheader, this time against the Phillies. Again, he came in to spell Law, who’d
pitched nine before the game went to the tenth on a four-all tie. Face surrendered one single (to Ed Bouchee) in the tenth, then
pocketed a win when Kluszewski opened the bottom of the tenth with a mammoth shot of Jim Owens, who went all the way for
the loss.

13 May: Face was brought in to open the seventh in the Los Angeles Coliseum after Kline fell behind 4-3 to Don Drysdale and
company. He surrendered a mere double to left (Junior Gilliam) in the seventh, watched his mates hang up three in the top of
the eighth (Stuart, a two-run homer; Mazeroski, an RBI double), then shook off two hits and two walks the rest of the way to keep
the Dodgers at bay and win, 6-4.

14 May: The very next day, Face blew a save when he relieved Friend against the Dodgers in the bottom of the eighth, after Duke
Snider doubled home Ron Fairly to cut a Pirate lead to 6-3. Entering with pinch-runner Bob Willis on third, Joe Pignatano on first,
and one out, Face was greeted by pinch hitter Rip Ripulski singling home Willis and—a walk and a strikeout later—Wally Moon
slicing a two-run, game-tying single up the pipe. Stuart smashed a solo homer off Clem Labine in the top of the ninth, though, and
Face retired the side in order including two swinging strikeouts in the bottom for the win. It was the third time on the season thus
far that Face had turned a blown save into a win.

31 May: Face ended the month with a flourish in the nightcap of a doubleheader, against the Reds. The game was a high-scoring
affair with the Pirates leading 14-11 after six-and-a-half, thanks to Burgess parking a three-run bomb in the top of the seventh.
Face took over for Bob Smith as the fourth Pirate reliever on the day; he matched Cincinnati’s Willard Schmidt shutout inning for
shutout inning to win.

June: Face would be named the National League’s Player of the Month for a performance in which he made fourteen appearances, saved
four, and won five, and only one of the games was a blown save he turned into a win. That came on 11 June in Candlestick Park against
the Giants, when he relieved Friend in the eighth and surrendered a one-out three-run homer to Willie Mays—who was pinch hitting.
Only one of those runs was charged to Face (Mays himself); Andre Rodgers was an unearned run since he reached by plunk, and Jackie
Brandt had opened the inning with a single off Friend. Face was lifted for a pinch hitter in the top of the ninth after the Pirates dismantled
Stu Miller (unearned run-scoring single, sacrifice fly) and Dom Zanni (two-run single, run scoring on a throwing error), and this time Law
was brought in to save it for Face. It was the only earned run Face surrendered all month.

9 July: Face took over for Law with two out in the ninth and a tie game against the Cubs; he worked an inning and a third of one-hit ball
as pinch hitter Harry Bright singled home Clemente with the game winner.

12 July: In game one of a doubleheader with the Cardinals, Face came in in the top of the eighth to stop the bleeding after the Redbirds,
opening the inning in a 5-1 hole, took the game back to within a run against Harvey Haddix, abetted by unearned runs thanks to St. Louis
third baseman Ken Boyer reaching on a third base error. Face got George Crowe to pop out to the catcher for the side, but the Cardinals tied
it an inning later when Don Blasingame opened against Face with an infield hit, took second on a sacrifice bunt, and scored on Bill White’s
single. He shut the Cardinals down the rest of the way before Clemente won it in the bottom of the tenth with a one-out RBI single.

9 August: By now, Face was 14-0 but almost a month without a win. This day, he came in at Wrigley Field to take over for Law, who left in
the eighth for a pinch hitter with the Pirates in the hole 2-1. Tony Taylor led off by reaching when Schofield committed a fielding error at
shortstop and eventually scored on an RBI single after Face walked Ernie Banks on the house to set up a possible one-out double play. He
got out of it with no further damage by getting Moose Moryn to fly out to deep center. The Pirates sent it to extras with a two-run ninth
(Clemente, an RBI single; Burgess, a sacrifice fly) and scored twice in the tenth (Dick Groat, RBI single; Nelson, bases-loaded walk), leaving
Face to dispatch the Cubs in order in the bottom for the W.

23 August: Face faced the Dodgers in the nightcap of a doubleheader at Forbes Field. The Dodgers took a 3-1 lead off Law in the eighth
and the Pirates put it back to within a run in the bottom off the Dodgers’ own relief ace Larry Sherry. Face was the beneficiary when Stuart
tied it in the bottom of the ninth with a two-out single and Groat won it in the bottom of the tenth with a two-out bases-loaded single—
after the Pirates had squandered an early advantage by turning a leadoff single (Hoak) into a double play.

30 August: Again in the nightcap of a doubleheader. This time, Face came in to open the top of the tenth and Philadelphia’s Bouchee greeted
him promptly with a launch over the right field wall, putting the Phillies up 6-5. Face worked the rest of the inning with only a two-out infield
hit (Gene Freese) to interrupt, and the Pirates won in the bottom thanks to Stuart’s two-run double. It made Face a 17-0 pitcher on the season
to date.

The rest of the way: Face made seven more appearances. He blew a save and lost on 11 September against the Dodgers, but over a week later
he won his eighteenth with four inning, one-run ball against the Reds. He came into a tie game in the ninth and surrendered a tiebreaker to Johnny
Temple (RBI single), but Mazeroski’s two-run triple in the bottom nailed the win.

Face had broken Jim Konstanty’s record for single-season relief wins (Konstanty won 16 for the pennant-winning Phillies in 1950) but ten of
his wins came after surrendering the tying or lead runs while the Pirate lineup had to re-gain the lead or win it on a walkoff. That, in hand with
the respect relief pitchers didn’t get before and even during his prime, may be why Face received no Cy Young Award votes and finished eighth
in the season’s Most Valuable Player vote, at a time when only first place votes were cast for the prize.

Right now, Scherzer’s only fooling opposing teams, one way or the other. He may be riding a flukish stat, but it’s a ride you wouldn’t expect
him to quit enjoying for as long as he’s on the train at all.


"The question of who is right is a small one, indeed, beside the question of what is right."---Albert Jay Nock.

Fake news---news you don't like or don't want to hear.

Offline American Faith Today

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Re: 5 Baseball Players That Weren’t Deserving of the MLB Hall of Fame
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2017, 11:06:47 pm »
Ozzie was deserving.  As a hitter, or for his hitting, no he isn't even close.  But if you're considered maybe the best defensive shortstop ever, or in a long time, and hit "well enough" and swipe almost 600 bases in your career, as he did, I'd say he belongs.

I check Baseball Reference a lot for this kind of stuff, and while it's not the be all end all, their system is well respected and they seem to have Rizzuto coming up a little bit short.  That was well before my time and I guess that's the "one of the key guys on a great team" vote.

Jim Rice I would say belongs in as well.  Lifetime OBP above .350.  Lifetime slugging above .500.  Lifetime BA of almost .300.  His comparables include Orlando Cepada, Duke Snider, and Billy Williams, all Hall of Famers.  Also Andres Galarraga who I thought deserved more consideration.

Mazeroski is tough.  Baseball Reference again indicates no, and offensively it's a no.  I know he was good defensively, probably great defensively.  Was he one of the greatest at the position all time?  I suppose at the time they thought he was.

Baseball Reference indicates no on Sutter as well.  I didn't really see him in his prime but I know he was one of the first great closers and held the saves record at one time I believe.  Now, seemingly any guy with the longevity is on the verge of breaking it almost every year.  Although now no one will be getting close to Mariano for a little while.

Part of it is me remembering them and part of it is again as I said what Baseball Reference indicates.  But to me Ozzie and Jim Rice belong. 

Offline EasyAce

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Re: 5 Baseball Players That Weren’t Deserving of the MLB Hall of Fame
« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2017, 03:51:59 pm »
Mazeroski is tough.  Baseball Reference again indicates no, and offensively it's a no.  I know he was good defensively, probably great defensively.  Was he one of the greatest at the position all time?  I suppose at the time they thought he was.
At the time he retired, Bill Mazeroski had the best defensive stats of any player at any position, ever.

Ozzie Smith belongs in the Hall of Fame for the same reason Mazeroski does---off-the-charts defense, and there should be
at least as much consideration to keeping runs off the board as putting them up. But Smith did improve as a hitter as his
career went forward.

Baseball Reference indicates no on Sutter as well.  I didn't really see him in his prime but I know he was one of the first great closers and held the saves record at one time I believe.  Now, seemingly any guy with the longevity is on the verge of breaking it almost every year.  Although now no one will be getting close to Mariano for a little while.
One of the problems a place like Baseball Reference has is that nobody's really figured out just what should be the Hall of Fame
indicators for relief pitching. I'd throw in things like how well a pitcher did if and when he came into a game with men on base
and what his averages were for surrendering inherited runners or stranding inherited runners, but I'm not sure a sound formula
exists just yet. (I tried to do so some time back but I wasn't entirely confident in what I came up with.)


"The question of who is right is a small one, indeed, beside the question of what is right."---Albert Jay Nock.

Fake news---news you don't like or don't want to hear.