Author Topic: Here it comes again: Arizona Christian Artists May Face Jail Time for Refusing to Service Gay Wedding  (Read 26793 times)

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Offline TomSea

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No matter what the Federal Government, US Supreme Court says, a marriage is between a man and a woman. That Obergfell Hodges decision is flawed like Roe v. Wade.  Like the Dredd Scott decision.

You can call a cat a dog, but it's still a dog. So in a sense, we are living a lie; a marriage never will be between two of the same sex or a group of people or a polygamous/polyamorous relationship.

Offline TomSea

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It is utter hypocrisy, Jazzhead uses the progressive saws of saying, we should leave abortion alone but try to convince others with a religious fervor it is wrong but then, says when it comes down to same-sex marriage, we shouldn't impose our religious will on others. Total hypocrisy, as most advocates of same-sex marriage, when it comes to abortion, no problem with taking the lives of others, hence, we have high abortion rate states like NY aborting over 30 pregnancies per 1000, vs. in other states like Wyoming when it is a little over 3 per 1000; but now, JH sees no problem with imposing these liberal progressive values on others.  JH sees no problem in snuffing out the lives of some, as say the disabled were not full persons in Germany in the 1930s but JH had no problem calling others fascists just like we saw these students do when R. Santorum visited Cornell.

In other words, these laws should be left to the states, not the federal government.

Again, like HonestJohn, it seems we are being exposed to progressive and non-Constitutional thought, pretty rank in my opinion.

Offline TomSea

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We shouldn't discriminate but at the same time, per "think of the children"; they really should not be exposed to this lifestyle, just like we shouldn't have single-parent homes, men or women who have gotten married multiple times.

HonestJohn

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How the hell does refusing service to celebrate a practice I find an abomination "imposing" my religion on others?  PRACTICING my faith means I DO NOT GIVE INTO providing services that celebrate, acknowledge or affirm that which is an evil practice.

Should we be forced to make DVD covers and commercials for pornographers simply because we provide video editing services?

You're coddling snowflakes if you think refusing services to those engaged in promoting such practices is 'humiliating them'. 

If I'm a butcher, and I'm Muslim or Jewish and someone comes in with a pig for me to butcher - am I imposing my religion on the customer because I refuse their request for service?

I'd love to see that attempt run though the courts and note the weighted balances of Justice.

Of course none of these people from the Gay mafia would dare to go to a Muslim business to attempt to get them to celebrate their behavior and engender lawsuits when rebuffed.

Because they will be rightfully told to pound sand, and if that is not enough - the Muslims would do that which Christians will not do if efforts to force compliance were attempted on them.

How is making a business that makes wedding invitations forced to 'celebrate' gay marriage by making their wedding invitations?

Does a gas station 'celebrate' your driving experience when you fill up your gas tank?

Offline Jazzhead

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How is making a business that makes wedding invitations forced to 'celebrate' gay marriage by making their wedding invitations?

Does a gas station 'celebrate' your driving experience when you fill up your gas tank?

Exactly.   This has nothing to do with stifling Christian "fervor".   There are plenty of opportunities and contexts to make clear to your neighbors that you think they're abominable.   But not when you're running a business. 
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Offline INVAR

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How is making a business that makes wedding invitations forced to 'celebrate' gay marriage by making their wedding invitations?

Does a gas station 'celebrate' your driving experience when you fill up your gas tank?

Stupid attempt at rationalization.

As a graphic designer, being FORCED to make an invitation to a Homosexual Marriage is INDEED forcing me to acknowledge, treat and accept homosexual behavior as normal and to be celebrated in the same way that holy matrimony is.

Lending my hand to create something that announces an abomination is a violation of my religious freedom.

It's the same reason I refused to create political vehicles for Democrat candidates.

Should I have been sued for refusing to do those too?
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline roamer_1

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Moral relativism has nothing to do with this.  This is a knock on behavior.  One can easily believe that the Enlightenment that produced the philosphy governing our nations to be the best... and still knock the behavior that mocks and degrades others for their beliefs.

At one point, we'd actually argue how our values are the best.  Now, it's a knee-jerk "how dare you criticize my position" cry.

To be sure, it does stink of moral relativism. There cannot be 'your beliefs vs my beliefs' where religion crosses politics, because that point, boiled down to it's essence, is the role of ethics in law. It is not any particular religion in the Judeo-Christian sphere that I would rise to defend, but rather, that Judeo-Christian Ethic - The generic sense of right and wrong that unifies us as a people, as made evident in more than two hundred years of jurist prudence.

If that sense is gone (as it now appears to be) we are no longer a people, and there is nothing left to save of these great United States... The great experiment of our fathers has been left wanting, and proven invalid.

Conservatives are the last bastion of the great things - the principle things - that made America what she once was. One cannot have Conservatism without the Judeo-Christian Ethic - It defines the moral prism by which every other principle must needfully be viewed.

It is the Christian Right that preserves that ethic, and to attack them is to attack it... And in attacking that ethic, one attacks all of Conservatism.

Offline roamer_1

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It's not my point of view, it's a fact - gay marriage is entirely secular, it's a civil contract.   It has no religious connotations whatsoever.

False. We are but moments away from Christian churches being forced to marry homos, even as they are being forced to provide insurance that allows for abortions. This shitis being shoved down our collective throat, on all fronts - to include the individual's right to work and make money without abridging his moral beliefs.

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I respect anyone's Christian faith.   Practice it in your own life proudly.  But, you see,  when you operate a business, you're supposed to conform to the requirements of the civil law.   The civil law, after all,  bestows protection on your business, and affords you the advantages of an ordered environment in which to profit from your endeavors.   And one of the simple requirements of the civil law is you don't discriminate arbitrarily,  whether you cite your "religion" as justification or otherwise.

Bullcrap. an 'ordered environment' free of moral sense is chaos.

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Practice your faith but don't impose it on others.   Especially by humiliating your customers just for being who they are,  and for what?   For the "sin" of seeking the very services you said you'd provide?   

Who is humiliating whom? Do you REALLY think there are no wedding planners, bakers, and such that embrace homos? Hell, homos are so pervasive in these fields that it regularly makes it's way into very public humor as stereotype.

This is nothing but forcing very religious people to cast aside their livelihood because of their beliefs. Force under the color of law.

Offline roamer_1

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A private business, on private property. Government is "public", yet it is free to discriminate. Strange.

Your view is the absence of freedom.

PRECISELY and succinctly said.
There it is.

Offline roamer_1

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How the hell does refusing service to celebrate a practice I find an abomination "imposing" my religion on others?  PRACTICING my faith means I DO NOT GIVE INTO providing services that celebrate, acknowledge or affirm that which is an evil practice.

Should we be forced to make DVD covers and commercials for pornographers simply because we provide video editing services?

You're coddling snowflakes if you think refusing services to those engaged in promoting such practices is 'humiliating them'. 

If I'm a butcher, and I'm Muslim or Jewish and someone comes in with a pig for me to butcher - am I imposing my religion on the customer because I refuse their request for service?

I'd love to see that attempt run though the courts and note the weighted balances of Justice.

Of course none of these people from the Gay mafia would dare to go to a Muslim business to attempt to get them to celebrate their behavior and engender lawsuits when rebuffed.

Because they will be rightfully told to pound sand, and if that is not enough - the Muslims would do that which Christians will not do if efforts to force compliance were attempted on them.

Brlliant.
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Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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It's not my point of view, it's a fact - gay marriage is entirely secular, it's a civil contract.   It has no religious connotations whatsoever.

I respect anyone's Christian faith.   Practice it in your own life proudly.  But, you see,  when you operate a business, you're supposed to conform to the requirements of the civil law.   The civil law, after all,  bestows protection on your business, and affords you the advantages of an ordered environment in which to profit from your endeavors.   And one of the simple requirements of the civil law is you don't discriminate arbitrarily,  whether you cite your "religion" as justification or otherwise.

Practice your faith but don't impose it on others.   Especially by humiliating your customers just for being who they are,  and for what?   For the "sin" of seeking the very services you said you'd provide?   
It is your point of view. You need to own that, it doesn't make it wrong and I don't mean that as a put down. We both have to realize we don't see this eye to eye.

You have a valid point, regarding rights. Allow me to cut this down to the basics. On it's most basic level the law exists to protect rights. 

To elaborate for a moment on my point of view, perhaps if we aren't on the same page you can lean over and read from my page for a minute, and I'll try to do the same. From my point of view man is a spiritual being, C S Lewis in the Screwtape letters referred to man as an 'amphibian' both physical and spiritual. Therefore we would be working against our own faith to follow Christian principles in the home and on Sunday and then bow to the demands of the word the rest of the week. Many other Christians feel the same, as noted on this forum.
 
Marriage, to the Christian is a God given institution. Don't discount that point of view, and I'll try not do discount that you see it as a civil relationship. Therefore marriage specifically falls under the God's commands from his Word. For a Christian to participate or support a marriage outside of the commands laid down in God's word is a serious sin.

As an aside, don't knock Christians for daring to practice their faith on the job. For the most part it helps them to be honest, hard working, and encourages them to turn the other cheek when mistreated instead of going postal.  :laugh:

Getting back to basic's, the law exists to protect the rights of the citizens. People ought to be free up to the point their actions infringe on someone else's rights; that's freedom in a nutshell. Hopefully, this is the common ground between our views.
So here's the issue as I see:
Is it an infringement of the rights of customers for the business owner to discriminate against them?
Is it an infringement of the right's of the business owner for force them to sell goods or provide services against their will?
If yes to both, which is the greater infringement and why?

I'm curious if you'd be willing to take a stab at the question from this framework.

« Last Edit: December 12, 2016, 05:01:10 pm by Idaho_Cowboy »
“The way I see it, every time a man gets up in the morning he starts his life over. Sure, the bills are there to pay, and the job is there to do, but you don't have to stay in a pattern. You can always start over, saddle a fresh horse and take another trail.” ― Louis L'Amour

Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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No matter what the Federal Government, US Supreme Court says, a marriage is between a man and a woman. That Obergfell Hodges decision is flawed like Roe v. Wade.  Like the Dredd Scott decision.

You can call a cat a dog, but it's still a dog. So in a sense, we are living a lie; a marriage never will be between two of the same sex or a group of people or a polygamous/polyamorous relationship.
Right on, right on, and right on.
“The way I see it, every time a man gets up in the morning he starts his life over. Sure, the bills are there to pay, and the job is there to do, but you don't have to stay in a pattern. You can always start over, saddle a fresh horse and take another trail.” ― Louis L'Amour

geronl

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You do not lose your rights just because you started a business.

Offline Sanguine

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You do not lose your rights just because you started a business.

Even though you become an evil, profit-making, business scum?

Offline SirLinksALot

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Even though you become an evil, profit-making, business scum?

Define "evil" and "scum".

And what's wrong with profit-making? I thought that was the purpose of business?

Offline Sanguine

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Define "evil" and "scum".

And what's wrong with profit-making? I thought that was the purpose of business?

I guess I should have put the sarcasm tag on there...

Offline INVAR

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You do not lose your rights just because you started a business.

Well, perception BEING reality in this age - YES YOU DO LOSE YOUR RIGHTS if you run a business that deals with the public according to the Left, the Moderates, the anti-So-con Trump militants and a vast majority of those who declare themselves 'spiritual' but not religious… whatever that means.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline Stosh

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Need someone to go into a black owned bakery and order a Confederate flag cake....heads will explode

Offline Sanguine

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Need someone to go into a black owned bakery and order a Confederate flag cake....heads will explode

There's a video floating around where, I think it's Steven Crowder, goes into a number of muslim owned bakeries and tries to order a gay-wedding cake. 

Offline Jazzhead

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It is your point of view. You need to own that, it doesn't make it wrong and I don't mean that as a put down. We both have to realize we don't see this eye to eye.

You have a valid point, regarding rights. Allow me to cut this down to the basics. On it's most basic level the law exists to protect rights. 

To elaborate for a moment on my point of view, perhaps if we aren't on the same page you can lean over and read from my page for a minute, and I'll try to do the same. From my point of view man is a spiritual being, C S Lewis in the Screwtape letters referred to man as an 'amphibian' both physical and spiritual. Therefore we would be working against our own faith to follow Christian principles in the home and on Sunday and then bow to the demands of the word the rest of the week. Many other Christians feel the same, as noted on this forum.
 
Marriage, to the Christian is a God given institution. Don't discount that point of view, and I'll try not do discount that you see it as a civil relationship. Therefore marriage specifically falls under the God's commands from his Word. For a Christian to participate or support a marriage outside of the commands laid down in God's word is a serious sin.

As an aside, don't knock Christians for daring to practice their faith on the job. For the most part it helps them to be honest, hard working, and encourages them to turn the other cheek when mistreated instead of going postal.  :laugh:

Getting back to basic's, the law exists to protect the rights of the citizens. People ought to be free up to the point their actions infringe on someone else's rights; that's freedom in a nutshell. Hopefully, this is the common ground between our views.
So here's the issue as I see:
Is it an infringement of the rights of customers for the business owner to discriminate against them?
Is it an infringement of the right's of the business owner for force them to sell goods or provide services against their will?
If yes to both, which is the greater infringement and why?

I'm curious if you'd be willing to take a stab at the question from this framework.

Thanks for your response, IC.   I understand that we see this issue differently,  and I suspect it boils down to the meaning of a word.   I've met many thoughtful social conservatives who are perfectly willing to grant gay couples the same legal and economic rights as straight couples within the confines of a "civil union".   It's the word "marriage" that they seek to protect. 

I try to use the term "civil marriage" when speaking of the right that gays have been guaranteed by the Supreme Court,  because I agree with you that churches should be under absolutely no obligation to recognize gay civil marriage as having any spiritual foundation or blessing.   It is a legal contract, conveying legal rights, privileges, obligations and benefits.   And yes, it also conveys status in the community,  a key factor found by the California Supreme Court when it upheld the right of gays to marry on the basis of the equal protection clause.   

I think you already know my view regarding, as between a customer and a shop owner, whose rights are being infringed when the customer is turned away on the basis of race, or gender, or sexual orientation.    The shop owner sets the rules of engagement; he's the one who decides what to sell and posts the sign on his door advertising his services or wares.   The customer comes in to purchase those services,  and is turned away, humiliated.   

Is such humiliation justified because the shop owner cites his religion?    That's what I have trouble getting my head around.   Why should religion trump the customer's right to obtain what the shop owner has said he would provide?   
   
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Offline goatprairie

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No, they can provide their commercial services without arbitrarily discriminating among members of the public.   Stop with the sob story - you've calling the victimizer the victim.
Should artists/businesses be forced to produce Nazi-themed goods for customers? After all, they'd just be providing a commercial service and not necessarily endorsing Nazism.

Online Free Vulcan

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Why should religion trump the customer's right to obtain what the shop owner has said he would provide?   

The problem is that the govt keeps moving the goalposts. What started out as equal protection to all races and ethnicities, has expanded, and keeps expanding in definition.

We have went past to serving gays, to serving their weddings, and now they want to force churches to perform those weddings. Now it's the transgenders who want the same treatment, even though transgenderism is based on no science or facts, but 'identity.' Not only the same treatment, but as in NYC, they want all 40+ sexual 'identities' called by their proper pronoun and such at any business they cater.

Another example, in Iowa, the civil rights commission here has expanded beyond businesses to any 'public accommodation,' in this case a church offering bathrooms to transgenders, because they are not a private club protected by armed guards or something, even though most public places by law are required to have a bathroom. All of this based on 'identity' not scientific fact, or even law in this case.

If we can force businesses and churches to perform services and 'accommodations' based on imaginary 'identity,' then we can force anyone to do anything at any time: polygamy, child marriage, marrying Satanists, or Muslims, bestiality, or any other morally or socially objectionable thing. At that point church and religion cease to exist in lieu of the State becoming the Church, and forget about your business having any freedom of conscience whatsoever.

Does State mandated religion and forced morality fit into your definition of Separation of Church and State?
« Last Edit: December 13, 2016, 05:31:36 pm by Free Vulcan »
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Offline SirLinksALot

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These cases do not involve the sale of commercial goods at a place of business but rather the dragooned rendering of personal creative services for, and frequently attendance at, sacra­mental ceremonies that offend the providers’ consciences.

The small business and crafts people in the dock in these cases have not refused to seat gay people at lunch counters, or to welcome them into their shops and sell them film, floral bouquets, or pastries.

In fact, all have said they would be happy to sell off-the-shelf products for same-sex weddings, and several had longstanding business relationships with the gay customers who sued them. But they don’t want to be compelled to use their creative talents to “celebrate something that offends their beliefs.” THIS IS A FIRST AMENDMENT ISSUE.

You might say that this doesn’t matter; that refusal to service the same-sex wedding of someone you otherwise happily do business with is still discrimination based on sexual orientation because, in the words of the Colorado court in the recent case, “the act of same-sex marriage is closely correlated to… sexual orientation” in that it is “engaged in exclusively or predominantly by gays, lesbians, and bisexuals.”

But by that logic aren’t a black carpenter who refuses to make the cross for a Klan rally, and a black photographer who refuses to come take pictures of KKK festivities, guilty of racial discrimination? 

If they have no problem selling cabinets and cameras to whites generally, they are in the exact same position as those now having their livelihoods destroyed. Any attempted distinction boils down to an emotional response of “gays good; Klansmen bad,” and as fervently as one may agree with this visceral reaction it cannot be the basis for formulating a neutral legal principle.

Even Leading gay marriage proponent Andrew Sullivan has called these lawsuits “repellent” and “anathema.” I would go further and say that they are perhaps the most frightening assault on First Amendment rights since the end of Jim Crow in my childhood. Forcing anyone to affirmatively bear witness against his or her conscience has an Orwellian cruelty that makes it even more vile than negative restraints on freedom. This is why it has always been the hallmark of the most brutally totalitarian eras.

HonestJohn

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Should artists/businesses be forced to produce Nazi-themed goods for customers? After all, they'd just be providing a commercial service and not necessarily endorsing Nazism.

No business can be compelled to produce something that it doesn't already produce.

For your comparison to work, the artist/business would have to be on record as willing to or already producing Nazi-themed goods.  In which case, yes, a business that produces Nazi-themed goods would be expected to sell Nazi-themed goods to a customer wanting to buy Nazi-themed goods... regardless of sexual orientation.

Just like a baker who bakes wedding cakes can be expected to sell wedding cakes to a customer that wants to buy a wedding cake... regardless of sexual orientation.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2016, 07:46:00 pm by HonestJohn »

geronl

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Just like a baker who bakes wedding cakes can be expected to sell wedding cakes to a customer that wants to buy a wedding cake... regardless of sexual orientation.

They could buy wedding cakes all they like, they can't get the artist to make it a gay themed cake. It's not a service they already provided.