Author Topic: Ur-Fascism by Umberto Eco  (Read 4016 times)

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Offline Talisker

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Ur-Fascism by Umberto Eco
« on: November 28, 2016, 10:55:15 PM »
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Ur-Fascism by Umberto Eco
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2016, 01:38:44 AM »
Interesting. Thank you for posting this!
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Re: Ur-Fascism by Umberto Eco
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2016, 05:52:30 AM »
He died earlier this year, most people knew him for his novel " The Name of the Rose" but he was so gifted as a writer.
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Offline Oceander

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Re: Ur-Fascism by Umberto Eco
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2016, 09:53:47 AM »

Online Cripplecreek

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Re: Ur-Fascism by Umberto Eco
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2016, 09:56:40 AM »
Well done @Oceander

Offline massadvj

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Re: Ur-Fascism by Umberto Eco
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2016, 10:12:36 AM »
While Trump and his movement have shown some fascist tendencies (very well articulated by my friend OC) I am not yet fearful.  The man himself seems too clumsy and foolish to be an effective dictator, and there is already a great deal of infighting among his inner circle.  When Kellyanne is blindfolded and placed before a firing squad for her insubordination, then I will worry.  In the meantime, I will rest easy knowing that these particular fascists don't seem very competent.
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Offline Oceander

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Re: Ur-Fascism by Umberto Eco
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2016, 10:29:07 AM »
While Trump and his movement have shown some fascist tendencies (very well articulated by my friend OC) I am not yet fearful.  The man himself seems too clumsy and foolish to be an effective dictator, and there is already a great deal of infighting among his inner circle.  When Kellyanne is blindfolded and placed before a firing squad for her insubordination, then I will worry.  In the meantime, I will rest easy knowing that these particular fascists don't seem very competent.

To be clear, I am not saying that Trump is a fascist, will become a fascist, or that fascism will take over at this point in time.  Hopefully we as a species have learned a little something from the Twentieth Century.  But I am saying that the elements Eco ascribed to fascism are also present in Trump and his supporters.

I suppose the way to summarize that is this:  all fascists exhibit one or more -usually several - of these elements, but not all groups that exhibit one or more of these tendencies is necessarily fascist. 

Offline Ghost Bear

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Re: Ur-Fascism by Umberto Eco
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2016, 01:18:34 PM »
@Oceander , excellent analysis!   :thumbsup2:
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Online INVAR

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Re: Ur-Fascism by Umberto Eco
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2016, 01:35:04 PM »
I would be very, very careful about too facilely assuming that Eco's essay describes Clinton.  In point of fact, the elements he ascribes to fascism much more comfortably fit the mold of Trump and his followers.

Excellently articulated Oceander and exactly correct in attribution.

Recall that it was out of fear of the Communists that Germany (and to a lesser extent Italy) embraced Fascism.

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Re: Ur-Fascism by Umberto Eco
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2016, 01:58:07 PM »
 :thumbsup:

@Oceander

Good post

Offline Talisker

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Re: Ur-Fascism by Umberto Eco
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2016, 08:19:40 PM »
Your inversion of American Constitutional principles as a fascistic cult, your shameless slander of Trump, and your grovelling praise of Hillary's communist lies and talking points as the very definition of honesty, combined with the overwhelming and total agreement and support of the other posters, have shown me that I am on the wrong site.

Thanks for the clarification, I won't be wasting my time here any longer.
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Offline Ghost Bear

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Re: Ur-Fascism by Umberto Eco
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2016, 09:00:22 PM »
Your inversion of American Constitutional principles as a fascistic cult, your shameless slander of Trump, and your grovelling praise of Hillary's communist lies and talking points as the very definition of honesty, combined with the overwhelming and total agreement and support of the other posters, have shown me that I am on the wrong site.

Thanks for the clarification, I won't be wasting my time here any longer.

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Offline Oceander

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Re: Ur-Fascism by Umberto Eco
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2016, 09:19:46 PM »
Your inversion of American Constitutional principles as a fascistic cult, your shameless slander of Trump, and your grovelling praise of Hillary's communist lies and talking points as the very definition of honesty, combined with the overwhelming and total agreement and support of the other posters, have shown me that I am on the wrong site.

Thanks for the clarification, I won't be wasting my time here any longer.

Cheerio mate.

Offline Hondo69

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Re: Ur-Fascism by Umberto Eco
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2016, 04:19:33 AM »
The definition of Fascism is as difficult to pigeonhole as any other "ism", or even a Democracy for that matter.  You can't just list specific traits and spit them out in an Excel spreadsheet.  As noted above, "These features cannot be organized into a system; many of them contradict each other, and are also typical of other kinds of despotism or fanaticism. But it is enough that one of them be present to allow fascism to coagulate around it."

Technically Russia is a Democracy though most would agree it defies the traditional definition for that type of government.  Venezuela is technically a Republic but the same problem applies.  At one point the United States was a Republic by definition, but has become very, very Socialist beginning in the early 1900's.  The point being that definitions tend to veer off in odd directions when we attempt to classify disparate entities into a small number of categories.

We can, however, spot trends and identify hallmark attributes that generally seem to be a dead giveaway of one broad type of government or another.  Free elections would be one hallmark to identify.  Government structure would be another.  Each provides a clue that inches us closer to the big picture.

Now back to Fascism and the elements listed from Eco above.  He missed one.

And he missed probably the most important attribute of Fascism of all - elimination of free speech.  Whether referencing Nazi Germany, Mussolini's Italy or modern day Venezuela they all share that common denominator.  If we can agree that all three are examples of Fascism then we should also be able to agree that elimination of free speech has been a goal making up a key component of each example.

Which leads me to the last 8 years under Barack Obama.  If you'd like to make the case that free speech has not suffered tremendously under The Apprentice Prince, go ahead, you'll have one hell of a time doing so.  On the other hand . . .

[1] We all know that anyone daring to question the man's policies is automatically branded a racist.  No questions asked.  And don't remind the branders that he is half white, that has become almost worse.  Should you doubt me on this we have video evidence, lots and lots of video evidence.  Of course, the intended result of branding someone a racist is silence.

[2] How have college campuses fared over the past 8 years?  Once institutions of higher learning that embraced free speech of all types, they have devolved into mind control camps that routinely ban speakers who do not toe the company line.  But on the other hand they do offer counseling if you have been severely damaged by trigger words such as "The United States" or "America".  Instead of expanding young minds they have shifted their focus to silencing opposing views.

[3] The IRS has become a political weapon to be wielded upon those deemed political enemies of the Dear Leader.  And don't get caught making a donation to the Republican party or you can expect a visit from the EPA, OSHA and a handful of other agencies.  You automatically lose because you do not have an endless supply of taxpayer dollars to defend yourself against others who do.  The message is loud and clear, sit down and shut up.

[4] And I'm curious what the public would think about tapping the phone lines of journalists and hacking their computers as directed from the Oval Office?  Somehow CNN missed this blockbuster of a story.  At least you have to give CNN some credit as they ran a 40 second story when a list of 40 journalists signed a letter to the president reminding him about abusing their First Amendment rights.  Guess those journalists didn't want to sit down and shut up.

[5] The president of the United States goes on live TV and actively calls out both companies and individuals to silence. He then posts the same on the office White House website. In turn, the Left kicks into high gear and applies a full court press on these entities as directed from the Oval Office.  We have a name for that.

I could go on (and on) but you get the picture.  If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck . . .

In summary, those confused about the definition of Fascism need to look no further than right here at home.  It's on display each and every day in living color.

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Re: Ur-Fascism by Umberto Eco
« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2017, 06:51:14 PM »

Offline The_Reader_David

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Re: Ur-Fascism by Umberto Eco
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2017, 10:30:06 AM »
By my reading Trumpism hits 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 10, 12 and 13 out of Eco's list of 14.  And, one could make a tenuous argument for a few others.

Fascism was always, in the long run, a much more dangerous enemy of liberty than Communism.  The decisive counter-argument to Communism was provided by von Mises and Hayek even as the Soviets were embarking on their murderous campaign to make an unworkable system work and enforce it on the whole world, decades before history provided proof their argument was right, Reagan gave the rickety edifice a nudge (just halting their advance, the symbolic reverse of the Brezhnev doctrine in Granada and the faked better-than-actual telemetry for the SDI tests were enough) and Communism collapsed.

No decisive counter-argument to fascism is to be had, and Eco's piece shows why.  At the level of rational ideology, there's "no there, there," which is why the totalitarian impulse is now entirely fascist, if not in Eco's nicely characterized cultural sense, certainly in terms of economic program, even in places that are called "Communist", though I think the ChiComs now meet 1, 2, 4, 5, 7, 8, 10, 13 and 14 out of Eco's list, while the American left hits 1 (every tradition except that of Christendom, sycretism at its finest), 3, 4, 5 (note Eco's diversity involves disagreement, not differences of skin color or ways of having sex), 7, 8, 9, 10, 13, and 14.

So the last election in America was simply a choice between two different versions of ur-fascism -- a retrospective justification my position that I would not give the ascent of my own vote to either of the Caesar wannabes the major parties put up.
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Offline LateForLunch

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Re: Ur-Fascism by Umberto Eco
« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2017, 03:57:30 PM »
I will offer only one substantive comment on the central topic - the "tradition" that Slick Clinton follows religiously is that of Alienism - the notion that the only culture and traditions not worth supporting, cherishing or defending are one's own.

So in that sense, Slick Willie's behavior was/is true to Eco's central thesis entirely in line with obedience to the dicta of rote traditionalism. Far-leftists almost universally practice Alienism as a cultural tradition. This is on full display as we post regarding how the far-leftists are to a man, woman and neuter-thing vehemently attacking the president's efforts to protect Americans by temporarily / partially inconveniencing foreigners seeking permission to enter our country in order to tighten border control and preventing dangerous persons from entering.

That Alienistic tradition has an ideological brother, which is ego-driven nihilism - generally another prerequisite to fascistic ideology (because absolutism evolves from egocentric nihilism). Egotism, nihilism and fascism go together like Gila Monsters, fangs and poisonous venom.

Businessmen worship success within a traditional meritocratic framework, whereas egocentric nihilists / fascists worship only CONTROL.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2017, 04:04:46 PM by LateForLunch »
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Re: Ur-Fascism by Umberto Eco
« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2017, 07:50:29 AM »
Individualism and personal liberty die in the face of traditionalism. People take for granted the concept that they are "born with unalienable rights" but are unwilling to do the self-examination needed to understand and implement this. They are controlled by the fear generated through this unwillingness and will do anything but that truly honest inventory. This gives rise to organized religion and central authority. The herd mentality. The "popular" vote. The implicit consent of an individual to be ruled. You can parse group behavior all you want regarding fascism, ur-fascism, or anti-fascism, but in the end, all roads lead to Rome.

Offline LateForLunch

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Re: Ur-Fascism by Umberto Eco
« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2017, 10:50:21 AM »
Individualism and personal liberty die in the face of traditionalism. People take for granted the concept that they are "born with unalienable rights" but are unwilling to do the self-examination needed to understand and implement this. They are controlled by the fear generated through this unwillingness and will do anything but that truly honest inventory. This gives rise to organized religion and central authority. The herd mentality. The "popular" vote. The implicit consent of an individual to be ruled. You can parse group behavior all you want regarding fascism, ur-fascism, or anti-fascism, but in the end, all roads lead to Rome.

'Can't argue with any of that, really.

Maybe one could say that populism with an enlightened, well-informed populace is a wonderful thing (or so I have heard!) but that populism from a low-information, feeling/intuition-centered population often equates to mob rule.

It has been my experience that in this most recent national election, I found a significant number of people apparently voted for the right candidate for what I might consider to be in many ways, the wrong reasons.

Being primarily a rationalist, thinking-centered type of person, (or so I like to believe), and owing to the fact that the overwhelming numbers of voters select their candidates not from any strictly or even strongly rational process (like a side-by-side comparison bullet list of important issues, for example) but from a largely EMOTION/INTUITION-CENTERED PROCESS, it's not surprising that I find myself surrounded by comrades who though decent enough by all appearances, are also somewhat strange bedfellows.

Some brilliant person once said something to the effect that in a healthy free representative constitutional Republic, a smart, moral person will inevitably find themselves surrounded with a lot of people who agree with them about the right course of action, but for the wrong reason(s) and that one by necessity, needs to get used to it.

I'm trying.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2017, 11:11:57 AM by LateForLunch »
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Online dfwgator

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Re: Ur-Fascism by Umberto Eco
« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2017, 11:00:15 AM »
The definition of Fascism is as difficult to pigeonhole as any other "ism", or even a Democracy for that matter. 


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Offline massadvj

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Re: Ur-Fascism by Umberto Eco
« Reply #20 on: February 03, 2017, 12:00:33 PM »

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"I don't believe in Beatles, I just believe in me..."

Doesn't that mean John Lennon believed in individualISM?
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Offline LateForLunch

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Re: Ur-Fascism by Umberto Eco
« Reply #21 on: February 03, 2017, 01:49:11 PM »
"I don't believe in Beatles, I just believe in me..."

Doesn't that mean John Lennon believed in individualISM?
Dirty little secret of John Lennon is that his views had changed a great deal in the intervening years since he was a Beatle and the time he was killed. Close friends have said that he was going to register as a Republican just before he was shot - that was how much his views had evolved.

Of course, one is likely to garner a nice collection of derisive insults and vituperation expressing skepticism on that point from his loyal legion of followers on the far left. That is likely because his song "Imagine" has become the most popular song for hard-core leftists/atheists to play in mass media or at events to get their minions swaying with teary-eyed cloying, maudlin emotion.

What is even more ironic is that Lennon, when asked about Imagine in interviews, often said that he was in no way opposed to religion or spirituality or belief in God, but that the song was meant to propose alterative views to how to approach those things, not advocate for atheism in any way.

It is notable that Fredreich Nietzsche made almost exactly the same attempt a correction  regarding his famous quotation, "God is dead". It is arguable that Nietszche may never have actually made such a statement. Something akin to it was taken waaaaaay out of context from his essay Beyond Morality, when Nietzsche made the point that the rote, fundamentalist, doctrinaire, inflexible interpretation of God was what had to die - not that God Himself was dead or nonexistent. His attempt to clarity misconceptions about it's meaning had just about the same degree of success in dissuading atheists from laying claim to it, as Lennon's.

The fact that neither Lennon nor Nietzsche were militant atheists nor ever meant to advocate, support or promulgate atheism has not stopped legions of militant atheists and leftists from glomming on to their work and claiming both of them as their own.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2017, 02:14:22 PM by LateForLunch »
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Offline massadvj

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Re: Ur-Fascism by Umberto Eco
« Reply #22 on: February 03, 2017, 05:39:55 PM »
Dirty little secret of John Lennon is that his views had changed a great deal in the intervening years since he was a Beatle and the time he was killed. Close friends have said that he was going to register as a Republican just before he was shot - that was how much his views had evolved.

Of course, one is likely to garner a nice collection of derisive insults and vituperation expressing skepticism on that point from his loyal legion of followers on the far left. That is likely because his song "Imagine" has become the most popular song for hard-core leftists/atheists to play in mass media or at events to get their minions swaying with teary-eyed cloying, maudlin emotion.

What is even more ironic is that Lennon, when asked about Imagine in interviews, often said that he was in no way opposed to religion or spirituality or belief in God, but that the song was meant to propose alterative views to how to approach those things, not advocate for atheism in any way.

It is notable that Fredreich Nietzsche made almost exactly the same attempt a correction  regarding his famous quotation, "God is dead". It is arguable that Nietszche may never have actually made such a statement. Something akin to it was taken waaaaaay out of context from his essay Beyond Morality, when Nietzsche made the point that the rote, fundamentalist, doctrinaire, inflexible interpretation of God was what had to die - not that God Himself was dead or nonexistent. His attempt to clarity misconceptions about it's meaning had just about the same degree of success in dissuading atheists from laying claim to it, as Lennon's.

The fact that neither Lennon nor Nietzsche were militant atheists nor ever meant to advocate, support or promulgate atheism has not stopped legions of militant atheists and leftists from glomming on to their work and claiming both of them as their own.

I have noticed that putting a cross in front of a died-in-the-wool atheist or true believing leftist (both isms, btw) has an effect not unlike placing garlic in front of a vampire.
"She only coughs when she lies."

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Re: Ur-Fascism by Umberto Eco
« Reply #23 on: May 22, 2017, 08:45:57 PM »
Forgive all; In all things Thank God; Love all. Love 1st, most & always... HAIKU 4 END TIMES KINDLE: http://tinyurl.com/ybwuudfs...BE CALM & DO THE NEXT LOVING THING. QUIX thread for Quix GLOBALISM, UFO ETC topics here:http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php?topic=206517.new#new WILLIAM TOMPKINS Disclosure bk thread: http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,224639.0.html . Calling: To afflict the comfortable & comfort the afflicted

Offline Oceander

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Re: Ur-Fascism by Umberto Eco
« Reply #24 on: May 22, 2017, 10:58:27 PM »
I think you grossly distort reality in the below . . . particularly in your seemingly overlayering it onto Trump.

Sigh.


And I know you don't understand Umberto Eco.

Sigh


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