Author Topic: Expanding our reach  (Read 32282 times)

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Offline LateForLunch

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Re: Expanding our reach
« Reply #75 on: November 21, 2016, 04:58:03 pm »
I think it would not take long before someone who was good at handling weapons could say anything they pleased. That isn't a desirable outcome, especially in a culture where rights of the weak are to be protected against the depredations of the strong. The 'might makes right' attitude is not what we need, more one of right makes might, in that those who speak truth should be reinforced in that effort with the force of government, if need be.
Proficiency at dueling would only establish an ability to kill one's opponent, regardless of the truthfulness of a statement which perhaps should go challenged and would otherwise.
All this would mean is that we would have nasty pundits and news deliverers who would be good with weapons as a prerequisite.

Laws against libel and slander which allow for criminal and/or civil redress remain the preferable option.

A well reasoned argument. Thank you. I have some counterarguments but there is a lot of historical precedent to back up the central objection - monomachy became corrupted by aristocrats hiring bravos which effectively gave the moneyed class an upper hand, and corrupted by lower-classes seeking financial gain by challenging nobles who might not have the opportunity or resources to hire a skilled bravo to fight in their stead.

What about execution by torture !?! Sure mistakes might be made but in the long run, maybe lives would be saved since even psychopaths or frenzied drug addicts might retain enough sensibility to be deterred by the prospect.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2016, 04:59:40 pm by LateForLunch »
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Offline Doug Loss

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Re: Expanding our reach
« Reply #76 on: November 21, 2016, 05:28:57 pm »
A well reasoned argument. Thank you. I have some counterarguments but there is a lot of historical precedent to back up the central objection - monomachy became corrupted by aristocrats hiring bravos which effectively gave the moneyed class an upper hand, and corrupted by lower-classes seeking financial gain by challenging nobles who might not have the opportunity or resources to hire a skilled bravo to fight in their stead.

What about execution by torture !?! Sure mistakes might be made but in the long run, maybe lives would be saved since even psychopaths or frenzied drug addicts might retain enough sensibility to be deterred by the prospect.

It's a bit off-topic, but you have to think about what the purpose of execution is.  Is it to inflict pain on the person to be executed, to prevent the executed from ever committing the crime or crimes again, to deter other potential criminals from committing the same crime, or some other thing (or combination of things)?  For myself, I don't think the infliction of pain in the course of execution just for the sake of causing suffering to the executed is either useful or sensible.  However, the deterrent prospect of execution is one to consider.  That being the case, perhaps returning to public executions is worth considering.

But I'd really like to get back to discussing my proposed credo.
My political philosophy:

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2) It's none of your business.
3) Leave me alone!

Online Bigun

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Re: Expanding our reach
« Reply #77 on: November 21, 2016, 05:33:17 pm »
@Doug Loss

As someone up thread has mentioned, we already have documents that do what you are trying to do in writing this.  Perhaps we should dust them off and use them!   Make it very clear that WE support the idea that the FEDERAL government should  stick strictly to doing those things outlined in Article I Section 8 of the Constitution and leave all else to the states as the founders CLEARLY intended!
 
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

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- J. R. R. Tolkien

Online Smokin Joe

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Re: Expanding our reach
« Reply #78 on: November 21, 2016, 05:39:21 pm »
A well reasoned argument. Thank you. I have some counterarguments but there is a lot of historical precedent to back up the central objection - monomachy became corrupted by aristocrats hiring bravos which effectively gave the moneyed class an upper hand, and corrupted by lower-classes seeking financial gain by challenging nobles who might not have the opportunity or resources to hire a skilled bravo to fight in their stead.

What about execution by torture !?! Sure mistakes might be made but in the long run, maybe lives would be saved since even psychopaths or frenzied drug addicts might retain enough sensibility to be deterred by the prospect.
If that end was to be a deterrent, the focus would be on those who could be deterred. Not so much psychopaths, serial killers, frenzied drug addicts who are beyond the reach of reason, possibly well before their crimes are committed, but those who could reason, who would decide that the crime wasn't worth the risk of the punishment.
So the sort of crimes to deter would be ones committed by sane people with a clear head, at least clear enough to be deterred by possible consequences. Crimes of passion, of someone on bath salts, committed out of a deep, personal need that had endured and grown since adolescence or earlier (as with many serial killers), wouldn't be the sort of thing a society could deter--either the perpetrator is mentally ill or they are not in a rational state of mind, whether that is due to hatred, anger, insanity, or chemicals.

Most often, kings of old would use creatively cruel means of execution to intimidate the masses, but for lesser crimes (ones we might not consider capital offenses) and for (especially) treason.

There are dozens of 'Boot Hills" out this way with epitaphs reading "hanged by mistake" or some such. Bad enough to imprison the innocent, worse to execute them (can't be compensated in any way), but the thought of torturing the innocent to death?
No thanks.
 
Standards which should preclude the conviction of the innocent would have to be strictly enforced, and only on the basis of solid physical evidence should any conviction be considered for capital punishment in the first place. Unfortunately, people have been imprisoned on the basis of 'ginned up' evidence, the suppression of Brady Material, and the misstatements or knowingly false statements of witnesses. There is often incredible pressure to apprehend and convict someone, (anyone!), for heinous crimes, brought to bear by the press and the public who just want to feel safe.
 
Those arrests may be nothing more than a matter of rounding up some (pardon the expression) half-wit or one of the 'usual suspects' to take the fall for the benefit of a beleaguered police department and/or political leadership who is having trouble solving a crime or a string of crimes.

It is not inconceivable that the same sort of situation could be used to suppress political dissent. Once the door is opened, there is no telling how far, nor what will come through.
 
When I hunt, I dispatch the animal as humanely as possible, quickly to prevent suffering.
IMHO, capital punishment should be done similarly, but in the public eye, with full disclosure of the crime it is being administered for. That deer doesn't get a slug of 'feelgood juice' before I harvest it, the capital offender should not either. Suffering should be limited to that incidental to the anticipation of and the imposition of their fate, not imposed as a means of 'getting even' for the crimes they committed, or even as a deterrent to others, as tempting as that may be.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
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Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

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Offline Doug Loss

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Re: Expanding our reach
« Reply #79 on: November 21, 2016, 05:41:36 pm »
@Doug Loss

As someone up thread has mentioned, we already have documents that do what you are trying to do in writing this.  Perhaps we should dust them off and use them!   Make it very clear that WE support the idea that the FEDERAL government should  stick strictly to doing those things outlined in Article I Section 8 of the Constitution and leave all else to the states as the founders CLEARLY intended!

You know, I disagree with that a bit.  What you're talking about is how the government should be structured (which I agree with).  What I'm trying to do is create an inspirational and aspirational document to get people to join together in support of the principles which drove the Founders and which I think still drive us.  Once we get those (new) people committed to supporting those principles we can guide them toward the realization of those principles in the Constitution and in the thinking of our forefathers.  But we don't want to get into politics immediately because that will have the opposite effect from what I'm hoping for.  We (perhaps I should say "I" at this point) want to get people to affirm the principles of John Locke and to accept them as guidelines for their own behavior.
My political philosophy:

1) I'm not bothering anybody.
2) It's none of your business.
3) Leave me alone!

Offline Doug Loss

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Re: Expanding our reach
« Reply #80 on: November 21, 2016, 07:44:25 pm »
Here's a modification of the Responsibility for Free Association section, brought on by thackney's cogent comment:

Responsibility for Free Association

You may associate or refuse to associate with anyone you desire, as may anyone else.  You must not try to force an unwanted association on others, or try to prevent a desired association.  When others attempt this, it is your responsibility to support those being targeted in their intentions.  This includes both individuals and businesses—businesses may not be forced to provide products or services they don't wish to provide, or prohibited from providing products or services they wish to.  You must support such businesses' right to choose how to operate even if you disagree with their decisions about these products or services.  This does not mean you must patronize those businesses yourself if they contravene your principles, only that you must support their right to operate as they desire.

Individuals and businesses may not be forced to provide information they don't wish to provide unless required to by formal legal proceedings.  You must support these individuals and businesses if they refuse to do so.
My political philosophy:

1) I'm not bothering anybody.
2) It's none of your business.
3) Leave me alone!

Offline thackney

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Re: Expanding our reach
« Reply #81 on: November 21, 2016, 09:15:13 pm »
What about execution by torture !?! Sure mistakes might be made but in the long run, maybe lives would be saved since even psychopaths or frenzied drug addicts might retain enough sensibility to be deterred by the prospect.

Folks that don't consider "regular" death penalty or even life in prison sufficient deterrent are unlikely to be convinced by worse death penalties.

Trying to rationalize the behavior of irrational people, can drive a rational person crazy.
Life is fragile, handle with prayer

Offline thackney

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Re: Expanding our reach
« Reply #82 on: November 21, 2016, 09:20:19 pm »
You know, I disagree with that a bit.  What you're talking about is how the government should be structured (which I agree with).  What I'm trying to do is create an inspirational and aspirational document to get people to join together in support of the principles which drove the Founders and which I think still drive us.

The documents the founders created were the summation of their principals, and getting people and the government back to living by those documents is the goal of this conservative.

Honestly, this attempt of a longer more involved "creed" only seems to be a step along the path to the original documents.  I see the time better spent on driving the constitution as the controlling document.
Life is fragile, handle with prayer

Offline Doug Loss

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Re: Expanding our reach
« Reply #83 on: November 21, 2016, 10:14:58 pm »
The documents the founders created were the summation of their principals, and getting people and the government back to living by those documents is the goal of this conservative.

Honestly, this attempt of a longer more involved "creed" only seems to be a step along the path to the original documents.  I see the time better spent on driving the constitution as the controlling document.

What you're advocating would be like taking smart kids who had never studied more than arithmetic and putting them into a high school algebra class.  They would be capable of understanding it, but wouldn't have learned the background necessary to do so easily.  And many of them, while capable of understanding, would be so upset by the initial confusion that they'd just chuck the whole thing.  Yes, it's a step along the path to the original documents.  But if you think people can get from the start to the finish without crossing the intervening space, you're wrong.
My political philosophy:

1) I'm not bothering anybody.
2) It's none of your business.
3) Leave me alone!

Offline thackney

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Re: Expanding our reach
« Reply #84 on: November 21, 2016, 10:17:12 pm »
What you're advocating would be like taking smart kids who had never studied more than arithmetic and putting them into a high school algebra class.  They would be capable of understanding it, but wouldn't have learned the background necessary to do so easily.  And many of them, while capable of understanding, would be so upset by the initial confusion that they'd just chuck the whole thing.  Yes, it's a step along the path to the original documents.  But if you think people can get from the start to the finish without crossing the intervening space, you're wrong.

We will have to disagree.  Good Luck on the effort.  God Bless
Life is fragile, handle with prayer

Offline Doug Loss

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Re: Expanding our reach
« Reply #85 on: November 21, 2016, 10:20:23 pm »
We will have to disagree.  Good Luck on the effort.  God Bless

Thanks!  You do know that nothing I said in disagreeing with you was said in anger, I hope.  :seeya:
My political philosophy:

1) I'm not bothering anybody.
2) It's none of your business.
3) Leave me alone!

Offline thackney

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Re: Expanding our reach
« Reply #86 on: November 21, 2016, 10:22:32 pm »
Thanks!  You do know that nothing I said in disagreeing with you was said in anger, I hope.  :seeya:

Yes indeed.  After spending a little time, I don't see the need but I don't want to be a distraction to the effort.
Life is fragile, handle with prayer

Online Bigun

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Re: Expanding our reach
« Reply #87 on: November 22, 2016, 12:46:59 am »
Thanks!  You do know that nothing I said in disagreeing with you was said in anger, I hope.  :seeya:

Actually, I think that Rush Limbaugh is on the right track here already with his series of children's books. 

And with that, I will also take my leave of this thread while wishing you every success with what you are attempting to do.
 
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Online bigheadfred

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Re: Expanding our reach
« Reply #88 on: November 22, 2016, 01:52:18 am »
Thanks!  You do know that nothing I said in disagreeing with you was said in anger, I hope.  :seeya:

I'm going to contribute   here soon. Bit by bit I am putting something together. Hopefully over the T-day long weekend.
She asked me name my foe then. I said the need within some men to fight and kill their brothers without thought of Love or God. Ken Hensley

Offline Doug Loss

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Re: Expanding our reach
« Reply #89 on: November 27, 2016, 10:08:04 pm »
OK, a new week is upon us.  I've sent the document as it now stands to Star Parker, Alveda King, Scott Ott, Patrick Frey (of Patterico's Pontifications), Sonnie Johnson of Breitbart, @nathanbedford (from TOS; as a personal request for comment), Rebel Media, and ThyBlackMan.com.  I've also sent it to some SF author friends who are open to the concept although they aren't actively involved in any sort of political education efforts (Brad Torgersen and Sarah Hoyt).  So far I've received a few vague encouragements along the lines of "great work, keep going," but no real expressions of desire to work with it.  Any other recipients you think would be approachable?  Let me know.  Oh, and now that you've all had some time to think about it, let me know any other critiques you may have, too.
My political philosophy:

1) I'm not bothering anybody.
2) It's none of your business.
3) Leave me alone!

Online bigheadfred

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Re: Expanding our reach
« Reply #90 on: November 27, 2016, 11:24:25 pm »
I haven't done anything yet. Truth to tell I have been sleeping a lot over the last 4 days. I want to try and put together a short video demonstration version with your document, if that is ok? I'm not any kind of pro at that. Just want to throw some ideas at you.
She asked me name my foe then. I said the need within some men to fight and kill their brothers without thought of Love or God. Ken Hensley

Offline Doug Loss

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Re: Expanding our reach
« Reply #91 on: November 28, 2016, 11:30:12 am »
I haven't done anything yet. Truth to tell I have been sleeping a lot over the last 4 days. I want to try and put together a short video demonstration version with your document, if that is ok? I'm not any kind of pro at that. Just want to throw some ideas at you.

I'd appreciate that more than you can know.  I'm not very good at that sort of thing; I'm more of a wordsmith.  If I may offer a thought...if we're trying to approach folks who haven't felt previously that "conservatism" had anything to offer them, having your on-camera personality be someone other than an older white man might be a good idea.  Just to break up their preconceptions.  Perhaps an upbeat young black female... ^-^
My political philosophy:

1) I'm not bothering anybody.
2) It's none of your business.
3) Leave me alone!

Offline Doug Loss

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Re: Expanding our reach
« Reply #92 on: November 28, 2016, 07:40:12 pm »
Here's a bit of news.  I was asked by the owner of http://thyblackman.com to write some roughly 500 word pieces for his website.  (Yes, he knows that I'm not black.)  I'm thinking about taking sections from what I've written here and expanding on them, one at a time, in less formal language.  Any other suggestions for topics or tone would be welcome.
My political philosophy:

1) I'm not bothering anybody.
2) It's none of your business.
3) Leave me alone!

Offline LateForLunch

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Re: Expanding our reach
« Reply #93 on: November 28, 2016, 08:32:40 pm »
Here's a bit of news.  I was asked by the owner of http://thyblackman.com to write some roughly 500 word pieces for his website.  (Yes, he knows that I'm not black.)  I'm thinking about taking sections from what I've written here and expanding on them, one at a time, in less formal language.  Any other suggestions for topics or tone would be welcome.

KEWL!

I have one - the major differences between a Republic and a pure Democracy and why the former is the sort of government that our Founders chose for the Greatest Nation the world has ever known!! That is a stumper for most low-information voters and especially leftists (who use the term "democracy" as if it has some holy, sacred significance in and of itself- instead of being little more than synonymous with "mob-rule").

There is a primer video on YouTube by roughly the same name (Republic V. Democracy) that might make excellent source information for you to rescript. 'Can't be said enough, because once a person understands this concept, they will never think of "democracy" the same way again.

For instance the Roman Republic (which was very short-lived relative to and was supplanted by the Roman Empire) was a very civilized, egalitarian, morally-administrated, well-modulated government whereas the Roman Empire was a defacto democracy/oligarchy of exceeding brutality and amorality, in which only the RULING CLASS enjoyed any semblance of equality or unalienable human rights. 

Why is the site named thyblackman??
« Last Edit: November 28, 2016, 08:46:53 pm by LateForLunch »
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Offline Doug Loss

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Re: Expanding our reach
« Reply #94 on: November 28, 2016, 08:36:54 pm »
The major differences between a Republic and a pure Democracy and why the former is the sort of government that our Founder chose for the Greatest Nation the world has ever known. That is a stumper for most low information voters. There is a primer video on YouTube by roughly the same name that might make excellent source information for you to rescript.

Why is the site named thyblackman??

I don't really know.  I'll check around, and if I don't see an answer I'll ask.  Oh, I just emailed all this to Mychal Massie, too.  He and I used to correspond occasionally, some years ago.
My political philosophy:

1) I'm not bothering anybody.
2) It's none of your business.
3) Leave me alone!

Offline Doug Loss

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Re: Expanding our reach
« Reply #95 on: December 02, 2016, 03:25:46 pm »
Here's a bit of news.  I was asked by the owner of http://thyblackman.com to write some roughly 500 word pieces for his website.  (Yes, he knows that I'm not black.)  I'm thinking about taking sections from what I've written here and expanding on them, one at a time, in less formal language.  Any other suggestions for topics or tone would be welcome.

Replying to myself.  Lame!  Anyway, I've finished my first piece for http://thyblackman.com.  I've sent it to the site owner, and will let you know when it's posted.  Once it is, I'll repost it here too; if for some reason it isn't posted there, I'll still post it here.  But you have to be patient...
My political philosophy:

1) I'm not bothering anybody.
2) It's none of your business.
3) Leave me alone!

Offline Sanguine

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Re: Expanding our reach
« Reply #96 on: December 02, 2016, 04:05:43 pm »
Replying to myself.  Lame!  Anyway, I've finished my first piece for http://thyblackman.com.  I've sent it to the site owner, and will let you know when it's posted.  Once it is, I'll repost it here too; if for some reason it isn't posted there, I'll still post it here.  But you have to be patient...

I look forward to it.

Offline Doug Loss

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Re: Expanding our reach
« Reply #97 on: December 02, 2016, 07:54:58 pm »
OK, the article is up here: http://thyblackman.com/2016/12/02/americans-what-unites-us/

Here's the text of it:

What Unites Us

Everywhere you turn today you hear, “We are more at odds with our fellow citizens than ever before.”  I don't know if that's entirely true, because there have been times in the past where Americans have gone into armed conflict with each other over their differing views.  However, it's definitely true that our country now has many groups that look at those outside their group as evil, crazy, power-hungry, etc. (fill in whatever other nasty adjective you can think of).

What I realized a little while ago is that while many of us belong to one or another of these groups, the groups are almost invariably organized around only one or two concepts.  It's difference on those few concepts that we use to paint all others as “them” rather than “us.”  But if we looked at all the things we each believe to be true, I'm sure we'd find that in large part we agree with each other more than we disagree.  I think it's important for our country, our families, and ourselves to try to find these areas of agreement with others and to make it plain (both to them and to ourselves) that while we disagree on some things, the larger group of things that we agree on makes us all one people, the American people.  If we can do this, we can work on our disagreements more calmly and peacefully, and resolve them to the agreement and benefit of everyone.

In future pieces I'll explore the things I personally believe in, and how I think they apply to everyone.  You may not agree with all of them, but I'll be very surprised if you don't agree with many or most of them.

To end this first piece, I'd like to issue both an invitation and a challenge to everyone.  If, in your daily life, you meet someone who you believe to be one of “them,” someone outside a group you consider yourself to be a member of, rather than turning away in distaste or saying something less than complimentary, try smiling at that person and introducing yourself.  Shake his or her hand, find something that you have in common to talk about.  That will probably be easy, since you will have met this person somewhere (in the grocery store, at work, waiting in line for a movie, etc.).  Get to know that person as a person, not as one of “them.”  Once you've done this, and also become a person to him or her, you can gradually start to talk calmly about your differences.

You'll find that there are many things you already agree on: your hopes for the future, your worries about your kids, your occasional frustrations in daily life.  It's only by becoming people to each other that we can bridge our differences and see ourselves as the united American people we really are.
My political philosophy:

1) I'm not bothering anybody.
2) It's none of your business.
3) Leave me alone!

Offline Doug Loss

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Re: Expanding our reach
« Reply #98 on: December 05, 2016, 09:00:45 pm »
My article on http://thyblackman.com seems to be being read a bit.  It's received 8 "likes," and one comment (which was someone fairly predictably missing the point and crying about how nasty everyone else is).  I replied to that comment in as calm and inviting a manner as I could.  We'll see if that draws any more discussion. 

I'm going to write the next piece on the right to live, the responsibilities that right entails, and how it might apply to abortion and assisted suicide.  We'll see where that goes.
My political philosophy:

1) I'm not bothering anybody.
2) It's none of your business.
3) Leave me alone!

Offline Doug Loss

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Re: Expanding our reach
« Reply #99 on: December 06, 2016, 09:35:33 pm »
I just submitted my next piece to ThyBlackMan, on the right to live.  Once it's up I'll post the link here along with the text of the article.  That should be Friday, probably.
My political philosophy:

1) I'm not bothering anybody.
2) It's none of your business.
3) Leave me alone!