Author Topic: Measuring the Future  (Read 4610 times)

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Offline bigheadfred

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Re: Measuring the Future
« Reply #50 on: November 10, 2016, 08:11:29 PM »
@geronl

Ahhhh,just another poser with no actual convictions........

I got enough convictions that when a new PO tells me he is going to review my file a delivery truck pulls up outside his office.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2016, 09:48:56 PM by bigheadfred »

Offline bigheadfred

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Re: Measuring the Future
« Reply #51 on: November 11, 2016, 08:05:36 AM »
@geronl @Smokin Joe @roamer_1 @sneakypete

I am going to move this conversation on to healthcare. The immediate effects of a repeal of obamacare.

Hospital profits affected most? Is that "our" major concern?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=8&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjChKyn1qDQAhVL0FQKHa2RBfoQFghQMAc&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.modernhealthcare.com%2Farticle%2F20161109%2FNEWS%2F161109911&usg=AFQjCNEgy17oI099yzrQjOYlHSBsyGA7TA&sig2=ZQ8Ey2lE1lteWuosnjuDOQ

The number of people who would lose their insurance?

http://www.modernhealthcare.com/article/20160305/MAGAZINE/303059966

http://www.modernhealthcare.com/article/20150117/NEWS/301169969

I'm not going to have time to post much on this until this evening, but a couple of anecdotes.

A co-worker told me yesterday his catastrophic insurance premium is rising beyond his ability to pay so he is done with it. It doesn't help in his day-to-day health issues anyway.

Shortly after our employer insurance ended and we were trying to decide what to do, my wife's gall bladder went out. Two weeks after the warranty expired. Our GP set up tests and from there an immediate  surgical consult. That a-hole told us he didn't think there was a problem. Basically called my wife a liar. Hadn't looked at her charts.  He said he would be 'nice' and not charge us for the consultation. Told us if she REALLY thought she had a problem we should go to the emergency room. So we did. They ran some tests and admitted her. We were waiting in her room and a nurse came in  fiddling around. I asked her where we were at. She said the surgeon had an emergency surgery and wouldn't be in for several hours. I told her I was completely exhausted--no good sleep for several days--so I was going home to nap.

As soon as I pull in the driveway my son comes over and tells me they were taking her into surgery. So back to the hospital I go at ought-ninety. Turns out the emergency surgery the surgeon had was hers. But they got her fixed up. The doc said her gall bladder burst when they were trying to remove it. It was that close.

To top it off the first  surgeon sent us a $400 bill for a surgical consult for after she was admitted. That made me mad. He got a severe a-chewing from me and NO money.

More later.

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Measuring the Future
« Reply #52 on: November 11, 2016, 09:56:13 AM »
@geronl @Smokin Joe @roamer_1 @sneakypete @bigheadfred

I am going to move this conversation on to healthcare. The immediate effects of a repeal of obamacare.

I don't think they can repeal it. I think they'll have to sunset it out there a year or so... Give the insurance industry some time to re-jigger. maybe repeal the mandate and offer it for a year to close.

Quote
A co-worker told me yesterday his catastrophic insurance premium is rising beyond his ability to pay so he is done with it. It doesn't help in his day-to-day health issues anyway.

My brother and sister are in the same boat.

My brother's just jacked by double... some 24k a year with a 9k per-person deductible. That means something like... if his whole fam damily got in a car wreck or something, he'd pay some 60k before the insurance kicks in...
And in normal seepage, your normal day to day health he's paying it all out of pocket. His wife had two surgeries this year and her end was still 300 bucks short of kickin in.

same with my sister... her family is smaller, but hers just doubled too - and she had to have her lady parts overhauled this year, and paid the whole bill out of pocket - wasn't even close to hitting the deductible.

So effectively neither one of them HAS insurance anymore... The deductible is so high that it's just a big ass useless tax.

A helluva long way from your standard $4-500/mo family policy with a $500 group deductible as it used to be... under which their issues would have hit close to 80% paid by their insurance.

Offline Weird Tolkienish Figure

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Re: Measuring the Future
« Reply #53 on: November 11, 2016, 10:12:18 AM »
Easiest change right now would be to get rid of the payout maximum ban, that should bring people's premiums down a little.
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Offline Bigun

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Re: Measuring the Future
« Reply #54 on: November 11, 2016, 11:30:12 AM »
Okay, that was getting off topic, although still a nice idea for the wish list. Getting back on, and using this graphic as inspiration, in Iowa, Mr Trump said :

The EPA should ensure that biofuel … blend levels match the statutory level set by Congress under the [renewable fuel standard],” Trump said.
http://www.governorsbiofuelscoalition.org/?p=15941
From the article, dated January 19, 2016:
Now, this is one promise I really hope he does not keep. The Renewable Fuels blend mandate is not a percentage of fuel, but an amount of ethanol, in gallons, to be blended into the nation's fuels . When this becomes a problem is when fuel consumption (gasoline) drops, the amount of ethanol stays the same, requiring more ethanol in more of the fuel supply. Most automobile engines are designed in such a way that beyond 10% ethanol (known as the 'blend wall') those engines will have problems. Flex Fuel and E-85 engines are an exception, but they are also an exception among the vehicles on the road.
In addition to that, ethanol in fuel systems is damaging to small engines, including generators, pumps, lawnmowers, snowblowers, chainsaws, outboard motors, and older (classic) vehicles not built to use ethanol in fuels.

 I would much rather see ethanol on the market as an option rather than a requirement, and let the market decide.


I prefer my ethanol in a glass with a few ice cubes.

Online Smokin Joe

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Re: Measuring the Future
« Reply #55 on: November 11, 2016, 12:20:50 PM »
@geronl @Smokin Joe @roamer_1 @sneakypete

I am going to move this conversation on to healthcare. The immediate effects of a repeal of obamacare.


Personal situation. Self employed for 5 years, carried 5K deductible per event on me, wife and dependent grandchildren (supposedly) covered by Indian Health through the tribe.
That cost about 6 K a year, and we put the max (7500/yr) away into a Medical savings account, out of which the smaller bills were paid. The actual rate of medical payment outgo was pretty close to that 7500/yr, including everything from doctor visits to a couple of ER appearances, and over that term, and deductible/copays including the biopsy, surgery for basal cell carcinoma and the surgery for a umbilical hernia. Cost for health CARE (actual) including the insurance with a high deductible for the family (because Indian Health just didn't kick in at all) was about 14000 a year.

This year, I got a notice from my insurer that they were getting out of the Health insurance business in ND. Period. Done. Nevermind, they were only carrying policies for long term employees and they were not hiring. I still put money into the savings account, got the hernia taken care of a few days before the insurance ran out and thankfully without complications.

Now, from there I was told (income went from 200K+ to zero when the oilfield imploded) to apply for medicaid, that it was income based. Living off savings stashed during good times, I applied. Taxable income for family of 4 under 35K, with part of that (7500) not taxable because it went straight into the medical account. Turned down by Medicaid, despite being well below poverty level. Referred to the exchanges, which were just not do-able at that income level.

Now with no insurance, and thankfully, no health issues or ongoing prescriptions to keep up, but the most vulnerable I have been in my adult life to a medical problem. Will shut down the company if I can't get a new contract and go find a 'job', if I can find one with health insurance before the savings run out, just to keep from being fined (The Roberts Tax).

For starters, get rid of the penalty.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!

And I looked, and rose up, and said unto the nobles, and to the rulers, and to the rest of the people, Be not ye afraid of them: remember the Lord, which is great and terrible, and fight for your brethren, your sons, and your daughters, your wives, and your houses. Nehemiah 4:14 (KJV)

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Online Smokin Joe

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Re: Measuring the Future
« Reply #56 on: November 11, 2016, 12:22:24 PM »
I prefer my ethanol in a glass with a few ice cubes.
When we were teenagers, we were told "Alcohol and gasoline don't mix!!" (as an anti- drinking and driving thing). Suddenly, the rules of chemistry have changed...

How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!

And I looked, and rose up, and said unto the nobles, and to the rulers, and to the rest of the people, Be not ye afraid of them: remember the Lord, which is great and terrible, and fight for your brethren, your sons, and your daughters, your wives, and your houses. Nehemiah 4:14 (KJV)

About the only "Big" Liberals don't revile is "Big Government"

Offline Bigun

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Re: Measuring the Future
« Reply #57 on: November 11, 2016, 01:18:49 PM »
When we were teenagers, we were told "Alcohol and gasoline don't mix!!" (as an anti- drinking and driving thing). Suddenly, the rules of chemistry have changed...

Not changed! Only temporarily suspended at best.

Online Smokin Joe

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Re: Measuring the Future
« Reply #58 on: November 11, 2016, 01:32:42 PM »
Not changed! Only temporarily suspended at best.
Seems to me it happened not long after people started having fits about warm weather...
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!

And I looked, and rose up, and said unto the nobles, and to the rulers, and to the rest of the people, Be not ye afraid of them: remember the Lord, which is great and terrible, and fight for your brethren, your sons, and your daughters, your wives, and your houses. Nehemiah 4:14 (KJV)

About the only "Big" Liberals don't revile is "Big Government"

Offline Bigun

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Re: Measuring the Future
« Reply #59 on: November 11, 2016, 01:39:30 PM »
Seems to me it happened not long after people started having fits about warm weather...

Ignorance abounds!  The Romans grew grapes and made fine wines in what is now Greenland!

Online Smokin Joe

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Re: Measuring the Future
« Reply #60 on: November 11, 2016, 02:01:58 PM »
Ignorance abounds!  The Romans grew grapes and made fine wines in what is now Greenland!
Twelve thousand years ago, where I'm sitting, there was a mile thick ice sheet.  I'm all for Global Warming.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!

And I looked, and rose up, and said unto the nobles, and to the rulers, and to the rest of the people, Be not ye afraid of them: remember the Lord, which is great and terrible, and fight for your brethren, your sons, and your daughters, your wives, and your houses. Nehemiah 4:14 (KJV)

About the only "Big" Liberals don't revile is "Big Government"

Offline sneakypete

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Re: Measuring the Future
« Reply #61 on: November 11, 2016, 05:43:42 PM »
@geronl @Smokin Joe @roamer_1 @sneakypete @bigheadfred

I don't think they can repeal it. I think they'll have to sunset it out there a year or so... Give the insurance industry some time to re-jigger. maybe repeal the mandate and offer it for a year to close.

My brother and sister are in the same boat.

My brother's just jacked by double... some 24k a year with a 9k per-person deductible. That means something like... if his whole fam damily got in a car wreck or something, he'd pay some 60k before the insurance kicks in...
And in normal seepage, your normal day to day health he's paying it all out of pocket. His wife had two surgeries this year and her end was still 300 bucks short of kickin in.

same with my sister... her family is smaller, but hers just doubled too - and she had to have her lady parts overhauled this year, and paid the whole bill out of pocket - wasn't even close to hitting the deductible.

So effectively neither one of them HAS insurance anymore... The deductible is so high that it's just a big ass useless tax.

A helluva long way from your standard $4-500/mo family policy with a $500 group deductible as it used to be... under which their issues would have hit close to 80% paid by their insurance.

@roamer_1

I want to console you be easing your mind about the po peep-pulls on welfare. Don't worry. They don't have to pay anything.

Now you know why the rates for working people are so high.
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Offline roamer_1

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Re: Measuring the Future
« Reply #62 on: November 11, 2016, 06:50:27 PM »
Now you know why the rates for working people are so high.

@sneakypete

Nah - Misdirected ire.

last I looked, 80% margin on insurance....
Insurance companies own the medical facilities...
$300B welfare/medicare/medicaid program that only pays out 13-25%with so much paper that medical has full time staffers just to take the weight off of bookkeeping...
INSANE bureaucratic rules that won't pay a local clinic, and require recipients to go to emergency rooms instead.
absurd social policies that encourage drug use, single parent households, and bastard children...
and most of all, levering the churches (that have a penchant for charity) out of the medical (and especially hospital and mental institution) game.

I wonder what's real by the time all the greedy bastards take their rake off the top.

I am not against charity. Governmental charity being the last resort... We are a wealthy Christian nation. But for the most part, the government should get out of the way and let folks do.

Like allowing a lesser health care system - Put a registered nurse in a minivan and let her do house calls - 80 % of the weight on doctors offices are stuff a decent nurse could handle, at a greatly reduced cost, with less vectors toward transmitting infection.

Stop the crusade against alt med - There ain't a dock worker in the country that doesn't know the benefit of chiropractors...

Everything from band-aids and vitamins to full care in a facility should be 100% write off without limit.Folks shouldn't be taxed on medical costs.

Everything donated to the poor, especially medical, especially internal to families, for med care, elder care, child care, should be write-off without limit. Let folks help their own.

And make it extremely attractive for churches and other charitable orgs to get back into the medical industry.
They did it cheaper and better.

Then you'll see the props knocked out of medical costs, and with alternative, more local and granular charity available, government can step out to a great degree.



Offline GrouchoTex

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Re: Measuring the Future
« Reply #63 on: November 11, 2016, 07:10:12 PM »
More promises: Compiled by Jenna Johnson, in the Washington Post article at the link Additional commentary and links are available there. Note: These may overlap the ones in the initial post. Again, this is done in the spirit of being able to compare stated goals with performance, and is not intended to commend nor decry Mr Trump, the President-elect.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2016/01/22/here-are-76-of-donald-trumps-many-campaign-promises/

Number 6- Repeal of Obamacare, may have just bitten the dust, also.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2016, 07:17:44 PM by GrouchoTex »

Offline Bigun

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Re: Measuring the Future
« Reply #64 on: November 11, 2016, 07:14:42 PM »
@sneakypete

Nah - Misdirected ire.

last I looked, 80% margin on insurance....
Insurance companies own the medical facilities...
$300B welfare/medicare/medicaid program that only pays out 13-25%with so much paper that medical has full time staffers just to take the weight off of bookkeeping...
INSANE bureaucratic rules that won't pay a local clinic, and require recipients to go to emergency rooms instead.
absurd social policies that encourage drug use, single parent households, and bastard children...
and most of all, levering the churches (that have a penchant for charity) out of the medical (and especially hospital and mental institution) game.

I wonder what's real by the time all the greedy bastards take their rake off the top.

I am not against charity. Governmental charity being the last resort... We are a wealthy Christian nation. But for the most part, the government should get out of the way and let folks do.

Like allowing a lesser health care system - Put a registered nurse in a minivan and let her do house calls - 80 % of the weight on doctors offices are stuff a decent nurse could handle, at a greatly reduced cost, with less vectors toward transmitting infection.

Stop the crusade against alt med - There ain't a dock worker in the country that doesn't know the benefit of chiropractors...

Everything from band-aids and vitamins to full care in a facility should be 100% write off without limit.Folks shouldn't be taxed on medical costs.

Everything donated to the poor, especially medical, especially internal to families, for med care, elder care, child care, should be write-off without limit. Let folks help their own.

And make it extremely attractive for churches and other charitable orgs to get back into the medical industry.
They did it cheaper and better.

Then you'll see the props knocked out of medical costs, and with alternative, more local and granular charity available, government can step out to a great degree.

My daughter - a long time, trauma certified, RN - would confirm most everything you said there!

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Measuring the Future
« Reply #65 on: November 11, 2016, 07:26:27 PM »
My daughter - a long time, trauma certified, RN - would confirm most everything you said there!

I've been thinking about it a long time. The thing that got me going is that medical is the only sector where cash on the barrel head will get you less than insurance (read financing). There is no way someone else paying your bills can be cheaper than you paying your own. The guy paying your bills for you has to make a profit. That right there shows there is something drastically wrong in the medical economy. What's next is to figure out what's propping up the cost, knock that stuff out, and let supply and demand have it's way.

« Last Edit: November 11, 2016, 07:37:38 PM by roamer_1 »

Offline bigheadfred

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Re: Measuring the Future
« Reply #66 on: November 11, 2016, 07:38:51 PM »
@sneakypete @roamer_1  @Weird Tolkienish Figure @Smokin Joe   

Watching the CBS evening news. Trump is saying he will be 'Repealing and replacing obamacare simultaneously". "Keeping pre-existing condition part and extended--kids living with parents longer". He said what he has in mind will be great insurance. I hope so.

Our condition is currently no insurance. The wife's gall bladder surgery is water under the bridge and we make a small monthly payment. My hep c meds--Sovaldi is free--Ribivirin is 1/3 off with prescription assistance. I am halfway through the treatment.  The doc okayed the Prilosec, but I have yet to try it. Other than that we are "healthy. Both taking meds for high blood pressure. She takes thyroid meds. And I am a nutcase.  But I think my cognition problems are really related the the hep c virus. I am getting clearer by the week.

Our doctor works out of his home. He hates the big corp. idea of health care. For example, the wife and I have regular blood tests. I am currently doing them every two weeks because of the hep c meds. My last tests cost $53 including the visit, supplies, and two tests. Complete metabolic, and liver enzyme levels.

A while back we priced it out with the local GP clinic. Both of us for our various six month checks plus prescription costs. Dollar Doctor was $154.  The GP clinic was $685. For the exact same services.

What I see as a huge problem is the fleecing of Medicaid and Medicare.  The insurance companies and hospitals say they have to charge those high prices to cover the people who can't pay. The Dollar Doc tells me, for example, an MRI shouldn't ever cost more than $150. Most places bill anywhere from $1500 to $3000.

Most of our current everyday health care is affordable because it is reasonably priced. It would be nice to get back on a plan. And like roamer said. A big group plan with a low deductible. My last one was my insurance was a job perk for me. The wife was an addition. For her part we paid $275/month. On the current exchange I alone am at over $600/month. That is with the subsidy. I just can't do that right now.

Offline Bigun

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Re: Measuring the Future
« Reply #67 on: November 11, 2016, 07:39:03 PM »
I've been thinking about it a long time. The thing that got me going is that medical is the only sector where cash on the barrel head will get you less than insurance (read financing). There is no way someone else paying your bills can be cheaper than you paying your own. The guy paying your bills for you has to make a profit. That right there shows there is something drastically wrong in the medical economy. What's next is to figure out what's propping up the cost, knock that stuff out, and let supply and demand have it's way.

ABSOLUTELY 100% agree!   :beer:

Offline DB

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Re: Measuring the Future
« Reply #68 on: November 11, 2016, 07:50:02 PM »
@sneakypete @roamer_1  @Weird Tolkienish Figure @Smokin Joe   

Watching the CBS evening news. Trump is saying he will be 'Repealing and replacing obamacare simultaneously". "Keeping pre-existing condition part and extended--kids living with parents longer". He said what he has in mind will be great insurance. I hope so.

Our condition is currently no insurance. The wife's gall bladder surgery is water under the bridge and we make a small monthly payment. My hep c meds--Sovaldi is free--Ribivirin is 1/3 off with prescription assistance. I am halfway through the treatment.  The doc okayed the Prilosec, but I have yet to try it. Other than that we are "healthy. Both taking meds for high blood pressure. She takes thyroid meds. And I am a nutcase.  But I think my cognition problems are really related the the hep c virus. I am getting clearer by the week.

Our doctor works out of his home. He hates the big corp. idea of health care. For example, the wife and I have regular blood tests. I am currently doing them every two weeks because of the hep c meds. My last tests cost $53 including the visit, supplies, and two tests. Complete metabolic, and liver enzyme levels.

A while back we priced it out with the local GP clinic. Both of us for our various six month checks plus prescription costs. Dollar Doctor was $154.  The GP clinic was $685. For the exact same services.

What I see as a huge problem is the fleecing of Medicaid and Medicare.  The insurance companies and hospitals say they have to charge those high prices to cover the people who can't pay. The Dollar Doc tells me, for example, an MRI shouldn't ever cost more than $150. Most places bill anywhere from $1500 to $3000.

Most of our current everyday health care is affordable because it is reasonably priced. It would be nice to get back on a plan. And like roamer said. A big group plan with a low deductible. My last one was my insurance was a job perk for me. The wife was an addition. For her part we paid $275/month. On the current exchange I alone am at over $600/month. That is with the subsidy. I just can't do that right now.

My health insurance for a family of 4 runs over $2800 a month earlier this year and I get no subsidy.

You cannot force coverage of preexisting conditions without requiring people to buy insurance by law - hence the mandate that Trump was for before he was against it.

Without the mandate no one would buy "insurance" if they have to be accepted after they get ill and need it.

In other words, Trump care is Obama care at its core. The simple fact is personal healthcare does not fall in the Federal governments realm under the constitution. It is nowhere in the enumerated powers of the Federal government and therefore is supposed to fall to the states to manage as they see fit.

Offline DB

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Re: Measuring the Future
« Reply #69 on: November 11, 2016, 07:56:39 PM »
I've been thinking about it a long time. The thing that got me going is that medical is the only sector where cash on the barrel head will get you less than insurance (read financing). There is no way someone else paying your bills can be cheaper than you paying your own. The guy paying your bills for you has to make a profit. That right there shows there is something drastically wrong in the medical economy. What's next is to figure out what's propping up the cost, knock that stuff out, and let supply and demand have it's way.

I think that is due to collusion between health providers and insurance companies. See what a "great deal" the insurance company got for you? Why the bill would have been $122,000 but the insurance company got it down to $26,000... Same with drugs. It forces people to access their care through the insurance companies because you'll get raped if you don't. Only one explanation. Collusion - AKA racketeering.

Offline bigheadfred

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Re: Measuring the Future
« Reply #70 on: November 11, 2016, 08:04:39 PM »
I think that is due to collusion between health providers and insurance companies. See what a "great deal" the insurance company got for you? Why the bill would have been $122,000 but the insurance company got it down to $26,000... Same with drugs. It forces people to access their care through the insurance companies because you'll get raped if you don't. Only one explanation. Collusion - AKA racketeering.

That is what I was looking for. Racketeering. It was a source of pride for my employer that he could offer health insurance. Now, I don't know all of the justs of the situation. Only that we no longer have employer-based insurance. And I can't afford the alternative.

I don't know if you saw the price for my hep c med, Sovaldi. Retailing in at $84,000 for 84 pills. $1000 a day. WHO can afford that? I'm told 'insurance' may pay up to half.

Offline massadvj

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Re: Measuring the Future
« Reply #71 on: November 11, 2016, 08:11:38 PM »
Didn't Trump promise to change libel laws so that it is easier to sue the press?
"She only coughs when she lies."

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Measuring the Future
« Reply #72 on: November 11, 2016, 08:16:47 PM »
I think that is due to collusion between health providers and insurance companies. See what a "great deal" the insurance company got for you? Why the bill would have been $122,000 but the insurance company got it down to $26,000... Same with drugs. It forces people to access their care through the insurance companies because you'll get raped if you don't. Only one explanation. Collusion - AKA racketeering.

Yep. It's a classic long con of monumental proportions. So long that it's inter-generational, cradle to grave... and with so many layers, it's impossible to unwind. But the big stakes players are the gov, insurance, big med (which is probably insurance) and big pharma (that probably owns them all)

The problem is that it is so big it has a life of it's own - the main thing is insurance. I think it should be illegal... Primarily because 'everybody's got to have it', and because it's an industry that has you by the short hairs. You'll pay whatever, because it is the illusion of health, and sold as 'the right thing to do'...

Online Smokin Joe

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Re: Measuring the Future
« Reply #73 on: November 11, 2016, 09:27:24 PM »
Didn't Trump promise to change libel laws so that it is easier to sue the press?
He said he wanted to, iirc, but I am not sure he promised to do so.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!

And I looked, and rose up, and said unto the nobles, and to the rulers, and to the rest of the people, Be not ye afraid of them: remember the Lord, which is great and terrible, and fight for your brethren, your sons, and your daughters, your wives, and your houses. Nehemiah 4:14 (KJV)

About the only "Big" Liberals don't revile is "Big Government"

Online Smokin Joe

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Re: Measuring the Future
« Reply #74 on: November 11, 2016, 09:29:11 PM »
Yep. It's a classic long con of monumental proportions. So long that it's inter-generational, cradle to grave... and with so many layers, it's impossible to unwind. But the big stakes players are the gov, insurance, big med (which is probably insurance) and big pharma (that probably owns them all)

The problem is that it is so big it has a life of it's own - the main thing is insurance. I think it should be illegal... Primarily because 'everybody's got to have it', and because it's an industry that has you by the short hairs. You'll pay whatever, because it is the illusion of health, and sold as 'the right thing to do'...
I thought Muslims didn't have to be insured because their religion had ruled it gambling or some such. If not, there is an 'equal protection' problem going on.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!

And I looked, and rose up, and said unto the nobles, and to the rulers, and to the rest of the people, Be not ye afraid of them: remember the Lord, which is great and terrible, and fight for your brethren, your sons, and your daughters, your wives, and your houses. Nehemiah 4:14 (KJV)

About the only "Big" Liberals don't revile is "Big Government"


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